Why I Think KotFE Ruined SWTOR

[Marak]

I think that the complaints against the Jedi/Sith cooperation as supposedly Jedi are good and Sith are evil is completely ignoring the choices and mechanics well established in Star Wars lore. Considering we've been able to have light sided Sith and dark sided Jedi since day 1, I don't think it's at all a stretch to think a couple of them might be able to find some common ground against a common enemy.

 

Bioware took some elements from their Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Inquisition story arcs and incorporated them here and made some really cool stuff. Honestly the new alliance system is what I had imagined from Day 1 when we were to "recruit companions." Now I feel like I have a choice in the matter. And the system in place looks like it is going to be far more friendly for meaningful personal choice rather than just going through the on-rails story and ending with X light side points and Y dark side points.

 

My only complaint is the first set of recruitable followers is pretty awful. One or two crowd favorites would've been nice.

[Swissbob]

That our characters got involved and it was actually getting close to working.

 

I find this really difficult to buy. How was my Smuggler posing a direct threat to Vitiate's personal security? My Bounty Hunter? My (loyal to the Empire) Agent? My (fiercely loyal to the Emperor himself) Warrior? My (again, loyal to the Empire) Inquisitor? My peaceful Jedi Consular? etc.

 

I mean, the only easily apparent danger to the Emperor was the Jedi Knight, but even s/he, never actually killed him. I mean, he's been shown to be nigh invincible from every attacker: The entire Dark Council tried to kill him, and got annihilated, and a team of the best Jedi tried to kill him, and failed utterly. How is my Smuggler supposed to be a threat to this guy? My Trooper? My... you get the point.

 

I just don't see how our character posed really any threat to this guy at all.... He appears so invincible, and every time we tried to fight him, he won. Were our actions against him on Ziost "close to working?" It didn't seem like it.

 

 

Again if the Sith ways were what was preventing something like the infinite Fleet from being born, why would he want to continue to preserve it?

 

 

Well, I don't know.... why don't you ask Vitiate, who preserved them for one thousand and three hundred whole years? If he didn't want to preserve them, why did he preserve them? And if he did want to preserve them, why did he destroy them?

 

You see how there are several completely contradictory versions of Vitiate (The "Sith Emperor Vitiate," the "Consume all Life Vitiate," and the "I have a new Empire now Vitiate") with little to no explanation given as to why his motivations and character have done a complete 180? It just seems like weak and random writing.

 

I mean, if he's able to construct or acquire an Infinite Fleet without the Sith, why need the Sith? Why did he keep them alive for 13 centuries if he didn't need them? If he "stumbled upon" the Eternal Empire just recently, and THAT'S why he kept the Sith for so long.... then a whole new horde of questions are presented.

 

How did he build/find/acquire this Empire when no one else could? Why was he so successful with this Empire in such a short time and not with the Sith? If it was around before recently, how come they didn't invade and conquer the galaxy with their clear technological and military advantage a long time ago? If it wasn't around before recently, how did Vitiate create such a clear technological and military advantage, and why didn't he do it before? I mean, the whole story about the Gravestone and the Infinite Fleet says to me that the Fleet has been around a long time.... why then was it not used until now? You'd think if you had an invincible galaxy conquering fleet, you wouldn't wait thousands of years to use it.

 

And also.... how would the Sith prevent the building of a huge fleet? I mean the Sith construct super weapons so often it's actually getting tiresome! The Death Stars were built by Sith, after all. And just take a look at the story lines of this very game! The Jedi Knight spends the entire first act trying to stop Sith Super Technology. The Trooper does the same in the second act. How can you say the Sith can't build menacing military technology when they so clearly do so incredibly often?

 

Which until his story line, this story line is done, we aren't likely to know. You want the end of the book review of all the secret plots of the antagonist at the start.

 

No no no. I don't need the entire plot, I don't need Vitiate's secret scheme, I don't need to know everything about him all at the very beginning.

 

HOWEVER, if I am this far into the story and his motivations and goals are completely unclear and his actions seem completely contradictory to everything he's done in the past several times over, something is wrong. If Vitiate is to be an interesting and compelling villain, I need some description of his motivations or goals other than "he finds me (yes, me.... the guy who smuggles illegal products from one end of space to the other....), interesting because I vaguely "leave an imprint on things". And hell.... you know what... I don't even need that! I'm okay speculating or inventing my own motivations.

 

All I do need is some semblance of continuity in not only the main Villain but the plot as a whole.

 

Don't give Vitiate's motivations and goals (he wants the Sith to suceed), only to then have him act completely contradictory to those parameters with little expressed reason, and then give me new ones (he wants to consume the galaxy), only to have him act completely contradictory to THOSE parameters with little expressed reason.

 

If you want to have your antagonist change, great, that's excellent. But if it has to be done in a coherent way that makes some sense to his core desires and is explained. Otherwise it just looks like one big contradictory mess.

 

However, there is some truth to what you said here in that I am judging the story before it's over. Bioware still has ample time to prove me completely wrong in most every single way. I really, really hope they do so.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Swissbob

[Sith_Ravager]

I don't think you touched on it (I read your post twice) but I'm mostly concerned with where SWTOR is supposed to go after KotFE is over.

 

Our characters are now the head of the Galactic Alliance of Being the Good Guys, and we don't have ties our factions anymore. It's so jarring, but my loyal Dark Side Sith Warrior is chastised for wanting to bring the Empire back from the ashes and take control, and is instead forced into being the Commander (Shepard) of the ABGG, taking in and working with both factions without a second thought. Where does that leave us once it's all over? KotFE can't go on forever. There will eventually be an end to the story.

 

Does the war between the Republic and the Empire (the very foundation of the game) spark back up again? If so, why would our characters participate knowing full well that we all work better as a team? Are there more threats lurking in the void beyond the galaxy that our Alliance will be tasked with stopping? If so, what point does separate factions serve, and when will we be able to completely play cross-faction?

 

Bioware went straight to 11 with the plot, and I don't think they stopped to consider how their MMO is supposed to carry on. ME3 had a similar plot, and look how that ended. Any expansion to that was presented in the middle of the story, not afterwards.

 

Im waiting for us all to get spiffy uniforms in Gold/Red/Blue depending on our specialization and changing our Factions into a single unified...hmmm...we could call it a ...how bout...Federation...yeah Federation...

 

Sorry but not only is the plot ripped-off from ME series, but it also seems like a bad Trek episode...Star Trek Online has been doing this all enemy factions join together in a Grand Alliance to Destroy this expansions Big Bad from beyond the Galaxy for like what 4 expansions now...

[Billupsat]

I find this really difficult to buy. How was my Smuggler posing a direct threat to Vitiate's personal security? My Bounty Hunter? My (loyal to the Empire) Agent? My (fiercely loyal to the Emperor himself) Warrior? My (again, loyal to the Empire) Inquisitor? My peaceful Jedi Consular? etc.

 

I mean, the only easily apparent danger to the Emperor was the Jedi Knight, but even s/he, never actually killed him. I mean, he's been shown to be nigh invincible from every attacker: The entire Dark Council tried to kill him, and got annihilated, and a team of the best Jedi tried to kill him, and failed utterly. How is my Smuggler supposed to be a threat to this guy? My Trooper? My... you get the point.

 

I just don't see how our character posed really any threat to this guy at all.... He appears so invincible, and every time we tried to fight him, he won. Were our actions against him on Ziost "close to working?" It didn't seem like it.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, I don't know.... why don't you ask Vitiate, who preserved them for one thousand and three hundred whole years? If he didn't want to preserve them, why did he preserve them? And if he did want to preserve them, why did he destroy them?

 

You see how there are several completely contradictory versions of Vitiate (The "Sith Emperor Vitiate," the "Consume all Life Vitiate," and the "I have a new Empire now Vitiate") with little to no explanation given as to why his motivations and character have done a complete 180? It just seems like weak and random writing.

 

I mean, if he's able to construct or acquire an Infinite Fleet without the Sith, why need the Sith? Why did he keep them alive for 13 centuries if he didn't need them? If he "stumbled upon" the Eternal Empire just recently, and THAT'S why he kept the Sith for so long.... then a whole new horde of questions are presented.

 

How did he build/find/acquire this Empire when no one else could? Why was he so successful with this Empire in such a short time and not with the Sith? If it was around before recently, how come they didn't invade and conquer the galaxy with their clear technological and military advantage a long time ago? If it wasn't around before recently, how did Vitiate create such a clear technological and military advantage, and why didn't he do it before? I mean, the whole story about the Gravestone and the Infinite Fleet says to me that the Fleet has been around a long time.... why then was it not used until now? You'd think if you had an invincible galaxy conquering fleet, you wouldn't wait thousands of years to use it.

 

And also.... how would the Sith prevent the building of a huge fleet? I mean the Sith construct super weapons so often it's actually getting tiresome! The Death Stars were built by Sith, after all. And just take a look at the story lines of this very game! The Jedi Knight spends the entire first act trying to stop Sith Super Technology. The Trooper does the same in the second act. How can you say the Sith can't build menacing military technology when they so clearly do so incredibly often?

 

 

 

No no no. I don't need the entire plot, I don't need Vitiate's secret scheme, I don't need to know everything about him all at the very beginning.

 

HOWEVER, if I am this far into the story and his motivations and goals are completely unclear and his actions seem completely contradictory to everything he's done in the past several times over, something is wrong. If Vitiate is to be an interesting and compelling villain, I need some description of his motivations or goals other than "he finds me (yes, me.... the guy who smuggles illegal products from one end of space to the other....), interesting because I vaguely "leave an imprint on things". And hell.... you know what... I don't even need that! I'm okay speculating or inventing my own motivations.

 

All I do need is some semblance of continuity in not only the main Villain but the plot as a whole.

 

Don't give Vitiate's motivations and goals (he wants the Sith to suceed), only to then have him act completely contradictory to those parameters with little expressed reason, and then give me new ones (he wants to consume the galaxy), only to have him act completely contradictory to THOSE parameters with little expressed reason.

 

If you want to have your antagonist change, great, that's excellent. But if it has to be done in a coherent way that makes some sense to his core desires and is explained. Otherwise it just looks like one big contradictory mess.

 

However, there is some truth to what you said here in that I am judging the story before it's over. Bioware still has ample time to prove me completely wrong in most every single way. I really, really hope they do so.

 

Lots of excellent points here, and unfortunately a lot of it boils down to this. Bioware realized after a decade of planning or so that Vitiate as a character doesn't work, had no substance, and was what amounted to an Evil Mary Sue and didn't like it. What we're seeing now amounts to gigantic Retcon of previous events to make new events more interesting (Not to belabor my earlier point but this is also common on soap operas when new writing teams come in)

 

Now, I happen to like this version of 'Vitiate' better than I ever liked the character, but that doesn't mean it isn't in fact altering the entire character up to this point to make it happen.

[Deyjarl]

I find this really difficult to buy. How was my Smuggler posing a direct threat to Vitiate's personal security? My Bounty Hunter? My (loyal to the Empire) Agent? My (fiercely loyal to the Emperor himself) Warrior? My (again, loyal to the Empire) Inquisitor? My peaceful Jedi Consular? etc.

 

As much as you want to ignore it, the game pretty much implies throughout our characters are different some how and the Emperor himself says so directly.

 

Well, I don't know.... why don't you ask Vitiate, who preserved them for one thousand and three hundred whole years? If he didn't want to preserve them, why did he preserve them? And if he did want to preserve them, why did he destroy them?

 

He tried and gave up. Again ignoring the part of he previous consumption plans for them. You really like to selectively pick parts of the story to support your point then ignore them later.

 

You see how there are several completely contradictory versions of Vitiate (The "Sith Emperor Vitiate," the "Consume all Life Vitiate," and the "I have a new Empire now Vitiate") with little to no explanation given as to why his motivations and character have done a complete 180? It just seems like weak and random writing.

 

There is also the possibility the Revan split affected him as it did Revan? Perhaps the new one is only part the personality of the old?

 

How did he build/find/acquire this Empire when no one else could?

 

There are other "empires" or factions out there than the 2 core and side Hutt and Mandalore ones. So the idea he is the only one that "could" is just not true within the setting. Others "could" if they chose to. Gree, Hapes, Killik, Xim, Still a good quarter of the Galaxy mostly unexplored. Most explore is solely along hyperspace routes.

 

Also the Republic "could" be its leadership and system of government restricts it from doing so. If it acted dictatorially as the Emperor it would have far more resources than the Emperor had.

 

Heck in the Novels not 1, 2, but 3 Deaths Stars, and one prototype and couple other super weapons based on the concept were built.

 

And also.... how would the Sith prevent the building of a huge fleet?

 

Game talks about the infighting and power plays plaguing the Empire directly. Most directly in the Agent story line.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hardly, its much more entertaining now than it was before with Vitiate Sue running around eating planets in all his Saturday morning cartoon glory. For the first time since he was created he actually seems to have more than one dimension.

 

He's still Vitiate Sue; that character jumped the shark some time ago, and nothing they do now can change that.

 

Would have been better off ending 3.X with a mission chain to discover the dark ritual he used to gain this level of power, and a way to counter the ritual.

[Swissbob]

As much as you want to ignore it, the game pretty much implies throughout our characters are different some how and the Emperor himself says so directly.

 

Oh I'm not denying it. I'm not ignoring it.

 

I'm simply saying it makes no sense, and it is poor writing.

 

I want to know how are they different? What does Valkorion need my smuggler for that he can't do himself? Valkorion likes me because I "leave an imprint"? Because I'm not "a slave to destiny?" In what ways? I do this more than the leaders of the most powerful galactic factions?

 

This "You're the special chosen one!" routine is as overused as it is uninteresting. It's (usually, and I think in KotFE) just an excuse for writers to put a character they like into a position of importance they aren't naturally in without actually having to write a detailed reason for it. It doesn't seem natural Vitiate would want to sacrifice his position of power and physical body just so he could share this illegal goods transporter's mind.... so let's just say he's "different" in some way. Don't worry, the players would question it, I'm sure.

 

Classic rule of writing: Show, don't tell. We should be shown how our characters are different, not just simply told so. Poor writing.

 

Anyway, you have much more in my post to respond to. Rather than just vaguely saying our characters are "different..." (the plot did that for me), can you account for the actual brass tacks of WHY are characters are different? After really all of the evidence points to us not really holding a candle to Vitiate?

 

He tried and gave up. Again ignoring the part of he previous consumption plans for them. You really like to selectively pick parts of the story to support your point then ignore them later.

 

Yes yes I know he tried and gave up. No, again, I'm not ignoring parts of the story. You're just ignoring my points.

 

So I'll say my point again: how and why did it take him 1300 years to realize this? You'd think he'd wise up to their act pretty quickly. It doesn't take 1300 years of failing to create an infinite fleet to realize that your plan to create an infinite fleet will fail.

 

There is also the possibility the Revan split affected him as it did Revan? Perhaps the new one is only part the personality of the old?

 

Except that split only happened 5 years ago.... he had his whole Sith/Zakuul identity crisis presumably years before that. And If it caused him to want to consume the galaxy (his other identity crisis).... why then did he suddenly stop wanting to consume the galaxy a year or two after the "split?" (His next identity crisis)

 

I don't think this theory really makes sense, but it could be interesting.

 

There are other "empires" or factions out there than the 2 core and side Hutt and Mandalore ones. So the idea he is the only one that "could" is just not true within the setting. Others "could" if they chose to. Gree, Hapes, Killik, Xim, Still a good quarter of the Galaxy mostly unexplored. Most explore is solely along hyperspace routes.

 

Also the Republic "could" be its leadership and system of government restricts it from doing so. If it acted dictatorially as the Emperor it would have far more resources than the Emperor had.

 

Okay, pick apart the specific wording of one of my questions while all the other, more important ones go unaddressed.

 

But sure, my wording of the word "could" in that particular question was poor.

 

 

Game talks about the infighting and power plays plaguing the Empire directly. Most directly in the Agent story line.

 

Yes.... okay.... and that completely misses the point of what I said. Those infighting and power plays NEVER stopped other super weapons from being built. Hell, why repeat myself when I can just quote myself:

 

I mean the Sith construct super weapons so often it's actually getting tiresome! The Death Stars were built by Sith, after all. And just take a look at the story lines of this very game! The Jedi Knight spends the entire first act trying to stop Sith Super Technology. The Trooper does the same in the second act. How can you say the Sith can't build menacing military technology when they so clearly do so incredibly often?

 

So your claim that Sith can't built a big menacing fleet just does not make any sense.

 

Sorry my responses are getting more and more bare, but frankly you aren't giving me much to work with here.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Swissbob

[knowmyname]

I agree OP. i went through the story of KOTFE and was asking myself. Is this a star wars game? the characters, story, way it played out just didnt give me that New Hope or Empire Strikes Back vibe.

 

it felt like WoW with glowsticks set in outer space

 

 

totally the wrong direction to go with SWTOR. at least SOR had a better throwback to KOTOR than the cheesy chat/dialog at the end of KOTFE. that in itself was jarring enough that im only doing 1 of my characters through KOTFE. it was the final straw. its not worth running my other toons through it. theres quicker ways to level them up anyways

[Zergnaut]

I agree OP. i went through the story of KOTFE and was asking myself. Is this a star wars game? the characters, story, way it played out just didnt give me that New Hope or Empire Strikes Back vibe.

 

it felt like WoW with glowsticks set in outer space

 

 

totally the wrong direction to go with SWTOR. at least SOR had a better throwback to KOTOR than the cheesy chat/dialog at the end of KOTFE. that in itself was jarring enough that im only doing 1 of my characters through KOTFE. it was the final straw. its not worth running my other toons through it. theres quicker ways to level them up anyways

 

You agree but you are still here? hmmm. Sounds Smart.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Zergnaut

[knowmyname]

You agree but you are still here? hmmm. Sounds Smart.

 

following me around? childish troll is childish

[Zergnaut]

following me around? childish troll is childish

 

Its not just you man its anyone on any forum I play that just do foolish things. Like in wow... On the Blizzard forums... Someone literally said "I hate this game with a passion and left a noval saying why". Yet a month later the same cat made a page log post listing all the reasons why wow sucks. It raises the question "Then why are you here?!" Its the definition of stupidity right there man. Maybe I just enjoy giving these kids a reality check on slow nights at work.

/shrug

 

Call me crazy but I do not pay for things I do not enjoy. Thats me though.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Zergnaut

[knowmyname]

Its not just you man its anyone on any forum I play that just do foolish things. Like in wow... On the Blizzard forums... Someone literally said "I hate this game with a passion and left a noval saying why". Yet a month later the same cat made a page log post listing all the reasons why wow sucks. It raises the question "Then why are you here?!" Its the definition of stupidity right there man. Maybe I just enjoy giving these kids a reality check on slow nights at work.

/shrug

 

Call me crazy but I do not pay for things I do not enjoy. Thats me though.

 

you took my post as a QQ. it was a "I told you so" to the fanboys. what we said came true. open your eyes and look around you. its a much larger picture. look at it. soak it in. its a big picture of whats been going on. and we few, warned you.

[Zergnaut]

you took my post as a QQ. it was a "I told you so" to the fanboys. what we said came true. open your eyes and look around you. its a much larger picture. look at it. soak it in. its a big picture of whats been going on. and we few, warned you.

 

Dude you are saying "I told you so" to doom saying and negativity about the game. How is that not QQ?

 

Lastly I like the game the way it is hence why I sub. So you warned me the game will get better and not become a second job like wow is? Thanks for the heads up bro. Good looking out

Edited November 1, 2015 by Zergnaut

[LordArtemis]

At any rate.....

 

They can actually fix what is wrong with this game IMO...but of course that is just my opinion, which means next to squat.

 

However, from my perspective this game is OH SO CLOSE to tipping over to the point of good health...but it keeps slicing itself open and losing blood.

 

Lots of good changes, lots of bad changes....seems to happen almost every major patch.

 

In this patch, you have the gambit.....

Changes that should have been in the game AT LAUNCH.

Changes that should have been in place when F2P launched.

Changes that are great for the game's health overall.

Changes that folks asked for....

 

And then...

 

Changes that NO ONE asked for or needed.

Changes that are bad for the overall health of the game.

Changes that could be good if they were slightly adjusted or fixed.

 

And of course.....

 

Changes, fixes and corrections that remain undone.

 

It's one of the things that makes Bioware unique IMO, at least with respect to this game....they do a fantastic job and a horrible job at the VERY SAME TIME.

 

It is actually pretty impressive.

[Deyjarl]

 

This "You're the special chosen one!" routine is as overused as it is uninteresting.Poor writing.

Except this isn't a book, this is a game where we're suppose to play someone extraordinary in a specific setting.

 

Yes yes I know he tried and gave up. No, again, I'm not ignoring parts of the story.

 

Clearly you haven't played through much or didn't pay attention to the plot points they hint at prior and after. He states it was just a means to an end.

 

I could see the Empire - Republic war a distraction to keep them out of the unknown regions where the Zakuul Empire is.

 

Those infighting and power plays NEVER stopped other super weapons from being built.

 

Umm yes they did. By the time of the movies, the Sith had moved to the Rule of 2. 2 Sith only, one leader, one apprentice because of the problems with the in fighting. All the other super weapons prior were found left overs from Rakata or others.

 

And actually YOU ignore that same plot point in the story, that the Infinite Fleet wasn't built by the empire. There are droid empires out in other galaxies that have come here possibly, builders, who knows but he didn't build it. Infinite... hints at a possible left over force from the Rakata again.

 

So your claim that Sith can't built a big menacing fleet just does not make any sense.

 

No your claim ignores plot points not only from this game, but the books talking about this time.

 

What Super weapon did the Sith build before they switched to the Rule of 2? List one that wasn't found that is a real super weapon.

 

Even the ones we stop in this game all rely on found tech.

 

And I never said they couldn't build them, I said it was a problem for the empire. You shouldn't rely on strawmen.

[Swissbob]

Except this isn't a book, this is a game where we're suppose to play someone extraordinary in a specific setting.

 

How does that matter? I want to see someone extraordinary in books and movies too, but that doesn't excuse the "chosen one" routine.

 

Just because it's a video game it's okay to see worse writing? Sorry, but I play this game *for* the writing and the story! That's the part that I should give the most scrutiny to, not the least.

 

The Star Wars story is the single biggest selling point of the game, and I guess unlike you I'm not willing to brush aside poor writing and things that don't make sense because "it's a video game."

 

 

Clearly you haven't played through much or didn't pay attention to the plot points they hint at prior and after. He states it was just a means to an end.

 

Ohhhh. It was a means to an end. Well that explains everything.

 

It's not that I'm ignoring these plot points. It's that I'm saying they don't make any sense! If you didn't ignore me when I said it before, you'd know that.

 

You hear "a means to an end" and you say "okay, I accept that." Well I don't just accept it. I ask:

 

What possible end, and what possible means? I mean.... if Vitiate didn't put in an entire millennium of effort into creating and growing the Sith Empire, and invaded the galaxy with Zakuul at the exact same time.... what would be different? He'd still have complete control of the galaxy! In fact, the only thing that would be different would be that the Sith Empire wouldn't be there, meaning less opposition for him! He actually, with 1300 of management, made more opposition for him, not less! So what was the point of it? What possible end, and what possible means did he require 1300 of running the Sith Empire?

 

Oh right.... it was all so he could meet my "different" Smuggler. Revan, Malak, the entire Sith Empire War, maintaining the Sih Order from the Great Hyperspace War.... it's all destiny for my illegal goods transporter.

 

 

 

I could see the Empire - Republic war a distraction to keep them out of the unknown regions where the Zakuul Empire is.

 

Well, except that war has only been going on for a few decades. What about the other centuries of relative peace? If Zakuul was so easy to find as long as they weren't distracted, wouldn't they have found in it in that entire millenium?

 

 

And actually YOU ignore that same plot point in the story, that the Infinite Fleet wasn't built by the empire. There are droid empires out in other galaxies that have come here possibly, builders, who knows but he didn't build it. Infinite... hints at a possible left over force from the Rakata again.

 

Oh, I'm ignoring this too? I just don't accept it, because it doesn't make logical sense.

 

In fact, it's one of the biggest problems with the entire plot of KotFE.

 

-Why, if Vitiate's had this fleet for a long time, did he not use it until now? And if you are saying it's been there since the Rakata or even before.... Then it predates Vitiate. Why was it never used!?

 

I mean, this Infinite Fleet was just sitting there for century after century, able to end all conflicts that had been going on in the galaxy for millenia, but was never, ever used until now? I mean, all of those conflicts were pointless when they could've just been ended by the OP fleet waiting just out of arms reach.

 

LotR analogy time. Let's say all the while Sauron is waging war against the rest, and Frodo is bringing the ring to Mordor, there was a complete arsenal of nuclear weapons just sitting north of Hobbiton, and then it gets discovered and launched to defeat all of Sauron's forces and the conflict is over.

 

Deus ex Machina of this size just makes everything before it pointless, not to mention it doesn't make sense if Vitiate could have conquered everything with this fleet he just "found".... why was he just twiddling his thumbs for 1300 years?

 

 

No your claim ignores plot points not only from this game, but the books talking about this time.

 

What Super weapon did the Sith build before they switched to the Rule of 2? List one that wasn't found that is a real super weapon.

 

Even the ones we stop in this game all rely on found tech.

 

And I never said they couldn't build them, I said it was a problem for the empire. You shouldn't rely on strawmen.

 

Hm, indeed you did say the Sith couldn't build something like the fleet:

Again if the Sith ways were what was preventing something like the infinite Fleet from being born [...]

 

And it is in fact you who is "ignoring" plot points, because there are several super weapons built by Sith with their own technology!

 

Don't believe me? Wookiepedia provides me with this nice list.

 

If you want a few specific examples created by Sith before the Rule of Two, here you go:

-The Desolator

-The Dark Reaper

-The Gauntlet

-The Sun Razer

--The Silencer

 

Or are those not true Scotsmen?

Edited November 1, 2015 by Swissbob

[Chakkal]

Thank you very much for this post! Even though I am not a diehard fan like you nor have I played any Star Wars game before SWTOR, nor did I had any contact with Star Wars besides the 6 films and Clone Wars cartoons, I really really love this "Star Wars Theme" and universe, that all bits and pieces of info I know about EU are from spending hours of reading blogs and wiki pages about it. Even though I am a great fan of WoW, the moment I heard a Star Wars MMO I immediately got my pre-order and signed for beta testing (which I got the privilege to be a part of).

Now, on to comment about your post, what you wrote encapsulates all my thoughts about the current state of SWTOR, I was starting to think I might be the outlier and the only one that thought that KotFE was a bad and nonsensical story and now a glad to see that you agree. But let me add some points to your review.

 

Level sync and visiting old content

I was opposed to this one but I came to like it a lot. The ganking as we know it is over (even though still possible), but mostly I like to visit old areas and have like a nostalgic feeling about it, while still getting relevant rewards for it. Now the difficulty is a joke. I liked that they made the HC2+ which in my mind meant that I could solo it with some well thought tactics and with a good companion healer. I was so disappointed to see that I could solo them with no healer if I wanted (it would be a bit more challenging but very doable) but that my companion can solo them more efficiently than me. If we had an aggressive stance for companions we could enter the phase tell the companion to attack, leave for 5 minutes and then come back and see the instance cleared. Also it defeat the purpose of always having relevant content and difficulty when you and your companion even with lower stats are still a god among all the other NPC's around.

 

Other story inconsistencies

During all the SWTOR story the player, which ever class he plays is supposed to be the pinnacle of their class, the strongest and the best one seen in ages. I haven't seen all class stories, but I got that feeling specially on my warrior and agent, and to some extent the bounty hunter and on the inquisitor even though most of the people I know thinks the inquisitor as the strongest character in SWTOR in my opinion the inquisitor story made a very good job proving otherwise, with its gaining in power being due to pure luck and none due to it's own strength, ability and intelligence, for instance the inquisitor could have been obliterated by Zash if by dumb luck Kem Val didn't decide to jump on the last second on Zash, or when it confronts Thanaton for the 1st and 2nd time not being even remotely prepared for the fight. But I digress, the point is that according to the story you are the best of your class in the entire galaxy and achieve remarkable things in a short time span. Plus, in the original story all the 4 classes co-exist in the story as a team that defeats all the menaces that have been presented. Ever since Lana and Revan came (am not sure at the moment if even since the RotHC also) and continuing through KotFE that is impossible. Now, there can only be one protagonist the "Outlander", which makes no sense. Where is the Emperor's Wrath and Darth Nox if you are playing as an agent? The top 2 sith in the empire simply vanished? Where killed in the war, and you an agent by miracle survives and become the emperor best friend now? I just don't buy it and I think from a non force user the story makes even less sense.

 

Other thing I can't understand is how the emperor is now a "good" guy that wants to help you and stop his children. If the emperor is that strong, which he is, as demonstrated by killing Marr with one force lightning strike plus stopping with ONE hand and effortlessly the light saber attacks from Arcann why on earth would he let himself be "killed" and let Arcann take over the Eternal Empire just to help the Outlander kill Arcann? Why not kill his children himself and remain the Emperor and bring peace the galaxy as he says he wants and stop the problem by its root? Why let it evolve if he has the power to do so? I know probably will be some plot twists in the future to clarify but letting things develop with no sense at all just to create a great finale or a great plot twist isn't a good strategy in my opinion.

 

We as the Outlander are supposed to be the strongest guy around but we get our *** kicked by Arcann with such an ease that makes me want to cry. He wipes the floor with us more than one time that it becomes ridiculous. And are we supposed to win against him in future? How? Are we gonna get some unexplained boost of power out of our *** or win by dumb luck, or need to be 20 against him to kill him? That not only makes you seam like a wimp but also removes the sense of you "being the best one".

 

Other thing is Senya defeating Vaylin. The later is depicted as extremely powerful (I even got the feeling she is stronger than her brothers and much more sadist and dangerous, to point I wouldn't be surprised if she went for Arcann's head) and alot stronger than Senya since young age. I know that more power doesn't mean victory, but with such a power difference and with a conflicting Senya how can she easily win? I personally wasn't convinced but this one it is not a big "problem" because it can be just me over reading things.

 

Game changes

I like that this story doesn't have much side quests or quests that make you "loose" time doing pointless stuff. The cinematics are great, the design of the new planets is also great, I really liked leveling. However it was too easy and too fast to level. I don't like to take ages to level but this in my opinion was too fast and specially easy.

 

The alliance with all those companions even though generally I like it because it "forces" us to do different kind of content other than the usual dailies from the past expansions, I still think it's design is bad. I couldn't care less about any of the new companions if I wasn't a guy who likes to do every content there is with is main character as fast as possible, otherwise I wouldn't even bother in getting the new companions. Specially because I don't have any attachment or meaningful interaction with them like with the original companions (and also to some extent with Lana, Theron and Koth). My only concern was to get Vette back, which I could only get "off the record" not as an official part of the story, something that in my opinion it should be the 1st thing to do after you came out of carbon freezing, specially if you had a marital relationship with her.

 

However, I do think this expansion has done more wrongs than rights in my opinion, but I am still enjoying it and will still play it (to be honest there isn't any other Star Wars themed MMO is it? so my options are close to none... )

 

To wrap things up am sorry for my poor skills in summarizing what I wanted to say and thanks to those that read this one too.

[Deyjarl]

Hm, indeed you did say the Sith couldn't build something like the fleet:

 

Fleet doesn't = superweapon.

 

But clearly you are going to cherry pick and selectively ignore canon of the game and novels.

[Swissbob]

Fleet doesn't = superweapon.

 

But clearly you are going to cherry pick and selectively ignore canon of the game and novels.

 

....

 

 

...

 

Okay.

 

Reread what you said, pay attention to highlighted area:

Again if the Sith ways were what was preventing something like the infinite Fleet from being born [...]

 

Do the same here:

 

What Super weapon did the Sith build before they switched to the Rule of 2?

 

You ASKED Me to tell you what SUPER WEAPONS they made before the rule of two. Now, when I present you with super weapons they made before the rule of two, I'm "cherry picking" selective parts of the plot, and that super weapons aren't a fleet? What do you want me to do, give you the entirety of all Star Wars narratives and force you to pick out the super weapons constructed by Sith before the rule of two yourself?

 

Don't ask me to give you specific examples of something and then say I'm cherry picking when I give you specific examples.

 

And also, are you really arguing that the Sith can't build a big fleet? Really? Because the entire Imperial Navy would like to have a word with you.

 

I mean.... honestly this idea that the Sith are ineffective at building military technology has really no basis in the lore as the Sith LOVE building huge militaries, huge weapons, super technology, etc. In fact Sith building seemingly invincible military technologies is so frequent in Star Wars stories (SWTOR included) that it's actually getting tiresome as a trope.

 

You've been more and more selectively picking what you want to respond to, from the substantial now down on to the petty. This time you've selected just a single sentence to respond to, so I suppose the discussion is coming to a close. I did really enjoy it, even though it was getting less and less productive as it went on.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Swissbob

[Skettitangles]

Great post! I disagree with some of it. My main plotline gripe was that Thexan's death is out of chronological step with how the story plays out compared to the trailer video for KOTFE.

 

Here's my 2 cents regarding the overall story and how it fits together.

 

Valkorian/Vitiate engineers the entire Sith Empire vs Republic war as a distraction for his plan to consume all life as we know it in the galaxy. Not to conquer. He never liked the Sith hierarchy and didn't participate in the Great Galactic War. He explains to The Outlander that he became changed after consuming all life on Ziost and I took this as meaning he was ready to simply walk away and leave these two factions to fight out their eternal struggle without his involvement at all and without needing to finish his initial plan to consume all galactic life. Perhaps he had become powerful enough by then to achieve true immortality.

 

In the meantime, he has focused on creating a "perfect" Empire over which to rule, unhindered by the baggage of the old galactic politics. It was never meant to be an all conquering force to be used, but had to be capable of dealing with any threat to its existence. It was Arcaan who used it as a weapon of conquest, not Valkorian/Vitiate. The Eternal Empire may well have been put in place to sweep in and clean up the wreckage of the Sith Empire/Republic war, but as we all know the former Sith Emperor is a very patient individual and may have been willing to wait several centuries for the most opportune time to do this.

 

Anyway that's the way I'm seeing the story unfolding and to me it fits together pretty well with established Star Wars lore

[Gurluas]

I absolutely loved this expansion because it resonates extremely well with my Light Side Sith who wants to reform the Empire, create a new Force order, and bring peace between Empire and Republic.

 

The whole working together Alliance angle perfectly fits my character.

I think the fact that Swtor became non-canon is a good thing.

 

It allows the devs to go in new directions. Try to consider Swtor an alternate reality or something.

[Ballroompirate]

If anything Kotfe has breathed some fresh air into Swtor, this game feels like Star Wars again (sorry but the last two expansions sucked, even as a Revan fan the managed to frak him up big time).

 

I actually like that my character isn't the biggest power house in the galaxy anymore, specially when you're up against the offsprings of the fraking EMPEROR!!!, Vaylin is a BAMF...seriously seeing her in action is like daaaaamn

 

Also this isn't the first time the Republic and the Empire have teamed up so don't act like it's not something new, it's been in novels, comics and even in Clone Wars (ok the Empire wasn't technically around during TCW but Dooku did team up with obi and anakin at one point).

[DarkDisturbed]

He explains to The Outlander that he became changed after consuming all life on Ziost and I took this as meaning he was ready to simply walk away and leave these two factions to fight out their eternal struggle without his involvement at all and without needing to finish his initial plan to consume all galactic life. Perhaps he had become powerful enough by then to achieve true immortality.

 

In the meantime, he has focused on creating a "perfect" Empire over which to rule, unhindered by the baggage of the old galactic politics.

If he changed only after consuming life on Ziost, then I fail to see how he had time to create a planet, have adult children, etc, in the few years.

[DarkDisturbed]

I

Also this isn't the first time the Republic and the Empire have teamed up so don't act like it's not something new

Nope, it's not new at all. It's been beaten to death in this game.

Darth Malgus, with his powerful new empire, the New Empire, has invaded known space and threatens the galaxy! The Republic and then Empire must work together to defeat this powerful new foe.

The Hutts, with their new powerful empire, The Hutt Cartel, have invaded known space and threaten the galaxy! The Republic and the Empire must work together to defeat this powerful new foe.

The Dread Masters, with their new powerful empire, the Dread Guard, have invaded known space and threaten the galaxy! The Republic and the Empire must work together to defeat this powerful new foe.

Revan, with his new powerful empire, The Infinite Army, has invaded known space and threatens the galaxy! The Republic and the Empire must work together to defeat this powerful new foe.

Valkorian, with his new powerful (2nd) empire, Zakuul, has invaded known space and threatens the galaxy! The Republic and the Empire must work together to defeat this powerful new foe.

[JattaGin]

I am luckily able to enjoy the new story despite all its obvious flaws. I think the term for such is "suspension of disbelief" or something like that.

 

I think that Star Wars as a whole is completely flawed. Just watch the movies. Hardly anything makes sense. Watched episode III yesterday again and noticed so many painful plot holes.

 

Yoda fights Sidious. He pushes Sidious back, apparently a hit that was difficult for Sidious to pary. During that Yoda, loses grip and falls to the ground.

 

His conclusion: He failed and has to go to exile.

 

What?! How can this be his conclusion? What's his plan there. Why does he even want to go to exile if he knows what a Sith will do to his beloved republic? That makes absolutely zero sense! He should have come back with better force, for example together with Obi-Wan. But no, without hesitating he decided to vanish and leave all the people to themselves.

 

Or Obi-Wan. He watches the holo of Anakin slaying the younglings in the Jedi Temple. And he then sees how Sidious talks to his new apprentice Vader. And Obi-Wan immediately refers to Sidious whom he knows as Chancellor Palpatine as Emperor. What? One glimpse of a holo recording and he already knows that there is a new Emperor in town?

 

Hardly anything makes sense in Star Wars. That's because it was never told as one story from the beginning to the end. This is a fact one has to accept if one wants to enjoy Star Wars for what it is: popcorn adventures.