While you are correct. In Media when a character comes out usually there's been some subtext or some subtle clues dropped prior to the reveal. However, this doesn't necessarily ring true in real life. There are several women (and I assume men) who've gotten married and had kids only to be completely blindsided when their spouse came out as gay or a lesbian. That doesn't necessarily mean that Doc is but this is also a character who hasn't had any major writing done for him since launch. So, I wouldn't mind an abrupt change given its been seven actual years since he's seen any kind of major content and what? thirteen years in the game's timeline? Back on topic, I think the direction of this thread has gotten a little derailed. In my opening post, I wasn't intended to start a debate on whether or not they should change Doc's sexuality. I was merely asking for some clarification on whether or not Doc was included in the added options because I found the statement to carry implications that Charles may or may not have intended.

That is a possibility I hadn't considered... though I will admit I do prefer Doc slightly over the latter two male options.

He had the pauldron in the Force Unleashed. That is the version of his armor set the added. You'll also notice the covering over his right arm belongs to the Force Unleashed version of his armor set and not the Kotor II one.

I thought Cytharat was a more interesting character. If I remember he was somehow involved in Malgus' Rebellion and he was on Makeb to help out as an act of redemption. Which was already a much more interesting foundation than, what did they say Lemda was? A 'respected geophysicist?' Its been awhile... Katha Niar (the human woman from Makeb - too bad she's dead regardless of what you do) would have been an excellent romance option for both genders. One of the few characters in the game I get torn up over when they die.

First and foremost I want to say that I am happy they are including more options for female players that want female romance options. I'm very happy for those players. Now, for a teeny tiny nitpick about this post in particular. There were no f/f romance options in the vanilla game but there was a flirtation with Lemda (available to both male and female characters) on Makeb. Now, I thought she was a terrible option but that might have just been because I was so mad at the time she got twice the screentime Cytharat did as the first m/m flirtation. Honestly, though, I would be happy if both of those characters were brought back in some capacity (My poor Cytharat could be dead... so I won't hold my breath.)

While I am thrilled that people are getting the options to romance Nadia as a female character and Lightside (or Darkside) Jaesa as either gender. I am curious if the option to romance Doc for male characters will be added as well or if it is only the female companions getting added romance options? I am only asking because the stream itself was unclear, with Jaesa and Nadia only being used as examples.

If Khem romance is actually a thing and not a joke I may have to make a character to try it out now... In the meantime, I must start my campaign for a Gnost Dural romance. Especially, now that I have at least one other supporter.

I for one find Master Gnost Dural very sexy, thank you.

I don't recall that dialogue during the latest flashpoint. If it was prior to that I'd assume it was either a lie or some form of an act on his part. If it was in the Nathema Conspiracy it must depend on your dialogue choices because I have no idea why I don't remember that.

I think - and I could be wrong about this - is the implication from the space station is that 'the traitor' didn't actually 'betray' you until after Iokath. Somewhere between Iokath and Umbara he figured out what was going on and realized that there was no way to tell you without being discovered and ruining the opportunity to get one up on the order. Of course, this is all just how I've interpreted the situation.

I was going to respond but Devilkat summed up what I was going to say. To elaborate, KotXX was planned to be at least 2x as long as what we got. Early during the back half of KotFE after backlash they decided to end it prematurely and move on to something else and what do you think was the first thing that got cut? Individual companion return chapters. Not to mention various plots and subplots started in KotFE. Every companion most likely had a planned return that got scrapped and that left the devs not knowing how to return them. So, they were just sticking them in where they could fit them. Elara and Quinn on Iokath, Temple with Copero, but that resulted in even more backlash. Now, they're giving them back to just the individual classes with, according to them, a few exceptions.

Thats what I get for skimming comments to make sure the glove comment hadn't been replied too... your's just stood out to me among the others because of my dark eyebrows.

Its only an oversight if they forget to include her. Personally, I think it was intentional. When they second half of KotFE was being released only one love interest was being returned per chapter on an equal female to male ratio. I think they left Akaavi out because they'd already decided to return Torian and didn't want two in the same chapter so they could draw the returns out longer. I also think this is why Risha didn't return in the Vette and Gault chapter. Not only was she another love interest, she was another male(1) love interest and they wanted them to come back in an alternating fashion. Even though, there were more male love interests than female ones. (1.) I wasn't sure whether it was proper to say she was a female love interest in relation to her gender, or male love interest in relation to what gender she was available to. I think they both can work but I wasn't sure and didn't want confusion. Hence, this clarification.

I'm pretty sure Charles Boyd posted somewhere that she didn't lose her hand but was in fact wearing a power gauntlet, but I don't remember if that was here on the forums or on twitter somewhere. I'm a natural blonde myself, almost a white blonde actually, but my eyebrows have always been a very dark brown. So, just because people have dark eyebrows doesn't mean they aren't natural blondes.

What if you are not the one who does the lightsaber sticking?

Tell me about it - I deleted experimental characters I made years ago across various servers and am now in the process of filling up some 24 slots across each of the east coast servers.

Then I highly suggest you play The Restored Content Mod.

To a degree that is true, yes. However, TSLRCM restored most of what was in the game files. Which was left in there by the developers so that players could have access to it. Also, some of the developers for Kotor 2 helped make the restoration mod on their free time and the mod has been added to streaming sites where Kotor 2 can be legally purchased. In that respect i'd say it's all but an official mod that has seen several iterations over the years. But at this point its probably just an argument over sematics and I'd rather not. While I can see how you might have read it that way and it probably does come off that way what i was trying to say without getting into a broader discussion was ((I'm going to try and distill this down to as simple as I possibly can given the scope)) Kotor 2 objectively has a higher quality of writing. Its a character driven narrative, in which all individual character stories tie into the overarching plotline, each character is given time to develop ((Though the player can decide to not develop them)) and remain relevant through to the end. Though, if I remember the release version has all of them disappear during the Malachor segment, this is noticeably different in the restored mod. Again, I think the disconnect between what i am trying and how its coming off is I'm trying to condense everything into a few small paragraphs versus opening up a larger debate and exploring the differences in writing between the two games. Okay. Lets get objective on a few aspects of this particular section focusing on my personal forte, Characters. Kotor 1 has some pretty memorable ones, I'll admit. Mission Vao is still one of my favorites, however she really only has a role in the plot on Taris with a minor subplot involving her brother afterwards none of which ties into the quest to find the Star Maps or stop the Sith other than it happens to take place on a couple of the planets where those things happen to be. Zaalbaar is similar in that he really only has a role ((a smaller role)) on Taris and Kashyyyk - and even then on Kashyyyk he's forcefully removed from the party and isn't restored until you resolve the main planetary storyline and this is the only time he's really focused on, other than when you rescued him on Taris. For the most part, Mission and Zaalbaar are just kind of there for the majority of the game after taris depending on how much you take them with you. Carth and Bastila fair a little better with their personal storyarc's tied into the main plot, but even then they lack nuance - the player largely has the same conversations or variations thereof with them for the entire game with the only real development coming at the very end. Carth finally getting over his trust issues if you help his son, Bastila getting captured and turned to the dark side after her emotions simmered for three acts leading either to her redemption or death. Juhani I would argue faired the best out of them all being redeemed from the dark side ((or not... in which case she didn't fair long)) to talking about how she languished on taris and after seeing Revan was moved to become a Jedi etc. Ultimately her realizing that the player is in fact Revan and then confronting the Xenophobia and violence she'd left behind on taris... But even then she still seems to repeat herself often. In Comparison, every single Kotor 2 character is tied into the overall plot and depending on how you play can flourish much faster without the need to repeat the same conversation over and over again. Bao-Dur built the Mass Shadow Generator which destroyed Malachor 5 and effectively ended the Mandalorian Wars and also resulted in the creation of the Wounds in the Force ((The Exile and Nihilus.)) and his character arc is that of coming to terms with the loss of life he was directly responsible for as well as trying to undo the damage done to the force ((albeit posthumously via his Remote.)) Brianna the Handmaiden, disciple of Atris ((And most likely secret daughter of Kreia - never confirmed but heavily implied through dialogue surrounding Kreia)) with her journey as the spy for Atris onboard the Ebon Hawk. Forced to either overcome her preconceived notions of the Exile and abandon Atris's teachings and be trained by the Exile or succumb to them and be twisted into one of Kreia's pawns. ((There's more obviously, I could cover entire paragraphs about the exile's relationship with Atris and how it differs - how its related to malachor 5, how kreia factors in but i'm trying to be brief and failing... )) Visas who's homeworld was destroyed by Nihilus ((Wound in the Force, Created by the Mass Shadow Generator)) and she was the only one spared - forced to become his disciple and hunt the exile. Only when spared by the exile - to prepare the exile for the confrontation with her Master who can only be confronted by the Exile because the two are mirrors of each other. and the same goes on for all the other companions. Each of their stories directly ties in to the Exile's and their journey's go along with the players. Objectively, you can see that each character adds to the overall narrative of the story and helps to enhance and illustrate its themes. Whereas in kotor proper, While certain characters fare better than others a lot of characters tend to just be there because they were necessary at prior points in the plot and hung around after that. Now, if you'd like to make an argument for how each individual character in kotor 1 was essential to the plot, or otherwise enhanced the overall narrative beyond their initial insertion into the plot I'd be glad to read it. I will make a concession character wise. The Disciple, while still having a plot related to the overall storyarc and playing. His role seems to be to get gaslighted by Kreia for no reason - its only when you understand that he knows Kreia's true identity does that make sense but offhand I don't recall if that ever gets outright stated or left up for the player to piece together. That wasn't what I was arguing. What i was arguing was whether the philosophical aspect of the game enhanced or detracted from its overall narrative - and without writing another million paragraphs I'd say that objectively - Yes, the philosophy discussed in Kotor 2 contributed to the understanding of its characters and themes and helped to elevate the individual narrative. The latter part I'd argue that I already made a concession for that. Kotor 1, is probably the better 'star wars' story as we've known it up until now but whether its a better story in and of itself. I'd say that it failed to properly integrate all of its characters into the narrative, had an over reliance on character archetypes, and at times suffered from some seriously poor dialogue - not unlike the movies it was based on. Kotor 2 in comparison integrated all of its characters into the narrative - in addition to having what characters join you based on gender and alignment and gave the player the opportunity to effect ((affect? - i can never remember which ones the verb and which ones the noun... )) how the characters developed and to a degree their role in the plot, subverted archetypes in favor of well rounded if unlikeable characters, and its dialogue was at times Shakespearean without being hard to understand what was being said.

Wasn't what i was trying to do - but forgive me for not pouring the effort of a literary essay into a forum response. What I was trying to get at is simply that through an objective analysis the writing from Kotor 2 had deeper meaning than that of its predecessor and focused on creating a character driven journey of self discovery versus a plot driven variant of the hero's journey reliant on character archetypes and fantasy tropes. Objectively, you can compare the characters of the two games and determine which were more well rounded and how they figured into the overall story. Objectively, you can examine the stories the two were telling and gage their respective depths. ((Though personal preferences will always color which one you like better)) Objectively, you can examine the philosophy's covered in both narratives and how they were weaved into the plot and story and whether or not they added or detracted from it. That being said in the end a lot of it does boil down to preferences. If one prefers the more black and white dichotomy of the hero's journey then they will lean toward Kotor 1. If you prefer the more philosophical moral examination of the universe you'll lean toward Kotor 2. However, I'd still argue that Kotor 2 while imperfect had the superior writing based on characters. Which were better developed and more fully integrated into the plot than Kotor 1's, not to mention the degree to which you could influence them and still have them retain their essential selves was wholly unique and added to the replayability of the story. However, its entirely possible to have not liked any of the characters in Kotor 2 which would greatly effect ones ability to enjoy the story. In and of itself however Kotor 2's characters were better developed and had more bearing on the plot of the game. Caveat; I've only played the Restored Content Mod for the last several years so I cannot in good memory comment on the original release of the game which if I remember correctly was missing about 50% of its content. So while I judge the merits of TSLRCM and Kotor 1 I cannot do so for its release variant.

The problem generally lies with how people are evaluating -- most of the time they are evaluating based on their tastes and preferences and that already takes the objectivity out of it. I can't comment on GoT - books or otherwise because I'd like the novels to be finished first - so, it may be another decade or two before i get around to reading/watching GoT. As for KotFE/ET - i enjoyed it well enough. There were parts I thought were well written, and parts i thought could have been written better. ((Anarchy in Paradise - and the War for Iokath come to mind)) I usually find that while most part aren't entirely wrong with how they've judged the work - usually they've let their biases color their assessment, which admittedly is easy to let happen. ie. I find a lot of people judged KotFE/ET negatively because it went against their preconceived notions of what star wars should be and they let that lense distort their overall judgement of the product. When really, Star Wars can be whatever it wants to be and their is nothing fans can do to change that - other than stop supporting the parts they don't like. Bias can be hard to overcome and hard to recognize in oneself. Admittedly, I am biased towards Kotor 2 but I've spent years debating with people about it and Kotor 1 to evaluate the merits of my own arguments and the argument toward kotor 1 and would be happy to do so again ((In a different thread no doubt.)) When going into a discussion though, you really need to be willing to consider the opposing views and not cling entirely to your own. A dialogue after all can only occur between people who believe themselves to be equal to the other - I believe the same extends to arguments - you have to be willing to consider the opposing view in order to have a conversation about it rather than an echo chamber. Now that I'm done derailing this thread... I like the Eternal Alliance and hope it sticks around a long time.

Opinions can be different and varied and rightfully should be - writing however is an objective field. it is possible to have opinions varying on evaluation but at the same time there are aspects that can be objectively judged. Again, there's a valid argument for saying kotor 1 was a better star wars story. When viewed through a critical lense though, Kotor 2 had better written characters and its plot was focused on those characters - whereas kotor 1 relied heavily on character archtypes rather than building characters and its dialogue at times was reminiscent of Saturday Morning cartoons. Kotor 2's dialogue in comparison was Shakespearean. That being said - we all like different things. Maybe some people didn't like how dark Kotor 2 was and preferred the more lighthearted hero's journey style of Kotor 1. Thats fine - its possible to appreciate things that are objectively not as good as their predecessor's/successor's or other similar media. ie. I prefer the Prequel Trilogy over the Original because i prefer the Greek Tragedy aspects of it and i like what it was tying to do versus the more black and white hero's journey style of the original movies. However, Objectively I can look at the OT and see they are better written movies even if I personally don't like them. Similarly, one can look at the writing quality of Kotor 1 and 2 and see that the level of writing for the second one was superior to that of the first but still prefer the first over the second even if the second is still objectively superior.

Pardon? The quality of writing for Kotor 2 was leaps and bounds ahead of Kotor 1. You may as well have just said that Stephanie Meyer was a better writer than J.K. Rowling. However, there is some merit in saying that Kotor 1 was a better Star Wars story than Kotor 2 - but from an objective standpoint the quality of writing was superior in the latter where it lacked in the former.

Its been added to the Daily Terminal in either the republic or imperial zones.

Writers can be changed around or replaced, with varying degrees of success. Sometimes you're going to get a writer whose able to tell a story better than the previous one and sometimes you're going to get a writer who derails the entire narrative and anything that can happen in between - but it can be done and was done with KotFE. Lots of different writers came in and wrote chapters for it. I can't speak to how much free will they had when writing the chapters. I know for sure the writer for the Agent storyline wrote chapters ten and fourteen and I'm sure there were several others. So, just because a writer has a 'creative block' does not mean that someone else cannot or would not have taken over. Again, thats a point I will concede to you on. Continuous narratives, especially one with lots of fingers in the pot, can and probably will have some narrative hiccups as well as things that probably should not have been in there. However, in Star Wars I can look at current and official canon and find things that probably shouldn't have been included going all the way back to the original trilogy (comes down to how you feel about ewoks.) Star Wars at least from my perspective has always had sort of a campy soap opera vibe to parts of its storytelling (Lucas I think even described it once as 'a big family soap opera,' but I don't have a source on hand.) Also, nothing is more campy soap opera than characters coming back from the dead (Maul,) and then seeking revenge. Star Wars as a genre lends itself to a long running continuous format and while the scope of swtor was almost certainly overreaching I don't think it was an inherently bad design to go for one. Had Tor not erred in other aspects of game design, and/or EA not rushed the game out the door as soon as the base game was playable things might have turned out differently. However, I may be biased and incorrect - but I felt I had to say my piece nonetheless.

I think its unlikely that its sustainable for 8 individual class stories in the games current state, on that I'd agree with you. It might have even been impossible from conception but that could argued back and forth over for eternity with no consensus. As to whether or not a continuous narrative in and of itself could have been sustained for eight classes - I'd say that its not impossible. The Extended Universe has/had a dearth of material that could be covered (Some of it of questionable quality...) and has yet to be covered in TOR. So , yes a continuous narrative is most likely unsustainable in the games current state. However, I disagree that it was never sustainable. Its unfortunate that Post Launch turned out the way it did and the players never got to see an actual attempt at it.