Why I Think KotFE Ruined SWTOR

[Rabenschwinge]

I kind of enjoyed Knights of the Fallen Empire when I first played it. This "all for naught" aspect seems to be a kind of running gag in Bioware - it was the same with the original ending of Mass Effect 3. You shape the galaxy leave your print on it and at the end: Space travel as it was is no longer possible, galactic civilization no longer exists.

 

It was a bit surprising that they came up with an "and now something completely different" story. I wasn't all too happy with the Ziost / Shadow of Revan story in the first place since it seems to be a repetition of the Jedi Knight story and turning it more or less meaningless, at least concerning vitiate. But however justified criticism may be, it's still an alright story and fun to play.

 

My personal main criticism would be that the player character does not really feel like the protagonist anymore. Lana is the protagonist, the player character is just one of her enforcers. They all say things like "you made all of this possible" but the character in the centre of it all, who really created the alliance, came up with the plan, is Lana Beniko. It completely eludes me what Darth Marr wants of me at the beginning of the story. Shouldn't he better be talking to Lana?

 

This is particularly painful from the Imperial Agent's perspective. While the Sith Inquisitor is a Dark Council member and thus higher in rank than Lana at the start of the story, the Imperial Agent is merely one of her agents. One that operates relatively independent of the Sith Intelligence, but still rather working for her than her superior.

 

For all its shortcomings however, I enjoyed it greatly. That you're not in control of the story is merely a side effect of playing through a story that is already written. That they want to reset and tell a different story... well most MMOs who start out with two opposing factions blurr the difference between those factions over time, I remember City of Heroes / City of Villains in that regard. To introduce a common enemy is how it always works. So... it wasn't entirely unexpected. Bioware did a great job to implement such a dense story in such a short time. To implement a variation for each of the eight classes within a couple of months on a game that is already up and running would have been unthinkable.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Rabenschwinge

[well]

It's served me well so far.

 

At least, the optimism expressed by "Prepare for the worst, look for the best." Someone hands me bantha byproduct, I'll use it to fertilize my garden, grow some lemons, and make some lemonade.

 

I was thinking of somehow funneling it in from the forum. I pretty sure I could fertilize half the state. Nothing wrong with being a optimist. I prefer cucumbers. They make better sandwiches then lemons.

[IanArgent]

I was thinking of somehow funneling it in from the forum. I pretty sure I could fertilize half the state. Nothing wrong with being a optimist. I prefer cucumbers. They make better sandwiches then lemons.

 

Why not both? Cucumbers for sandwiches to have with the lemonade on a day made warm by all the flaming?

[jstankaroslo]

the thread title put me off a bit, but

 

wow

 

I'm glad I read it. Very good points OP

 

It is not utterly ruined for me, but I agree on most parts:

 

1. Zakuul and the force. I hate that they can be grey so easily, not fall to the dark side etc. This is wrong in regards of the force

2. Companions. Yep, I dislike the multiple purpose companions. I want Mako to be just a healer, and Qyzen to be just a tank. I want to show off my well geared companions to my flashpoint buddies, etc. Same like OP. This is not big, but its a flaw

3. Companions are too strong -yep -this game was easy before, now its a walk in a park. The only solo content that gives me a feel of accomplishment is solo Star Fortress.

 

On the bright side:

1. Level sync is a good idea. Just that it overlevels us too much. I'm just too strong for those planets, and heroics. But this is a move in the right direction

2. Endgame is actually engaging, even if too easy. I hated those small areas like Black Hole where you had to race to the objectives with 10 other players. Now the heroics are more spread out, and I actually care about my end game character. Before -I left them after finishing Chapter 3.

 

so, IMO it can be almost perfect for me IF they give us a valid explanation about Zakuul, and balance the game to be a bit harder

Edited November 12, 2015 by jstankaroslo

[well]

Why not both? Cucumbers for sandwiches to have with the lemonade on a day made warm by all the flaming?

 

Good idea. I do like lemonade and it goes good with a sandwich. It will go well with reading some of the posts. I do enjoy fiction but prefer Eddings and Feist. Just so you know that is not a hit on yours. Yours are straight forward without any embellishments.

Edited November 12, 2015 by well

[Jaedelyia]

2. Companions. Yep, I dislike the multiple purpose companions. I want Mako to be just a healer, and Qyzen to be just a tank. I want to show off my well geared companions to my flashpoint buddies, etc. Same like OP. This is not big, but its a flaw

3. Companions are too strong -yep -this game was easy before, now its a walk in a park. The only solo content that gives me a feel of accomplishment is solo Star Fortress.

This.

 

Before, the solo (and actually also the group quest during leveling) game was super easy. Now it's TOO easy. Really, it's just boring. I picked up an old character to finish its class storyline, and even though everything had changed (skilltree, rotation and so on), I can just faceroll the thing without paying ANY attention.

 

I understand that Bioware want to make the game more forgiving, streamline every aspect of the game so we don't have to micro-manage anything, but come on. When a Jedi Consular (without healing companion) don't even have to use any heal or shield and just can match button to win, there's a problem. You lose every achievement feeling and everything just feel dull and numb.

[IanArgent]

IF you can solo heroic mode star fortress, you are doing better than the majority of players; and BW should not be using your experience to calibrate the difficulty curve.

[Jaedelyia]

I'm not even talking about starfortress or any heroic mode, I'm just talking about regular leveling sole content. I understand the point of lowering the skill entry barrier, I don't understand the will to kill absolutely all challenge to the point it becomes a boring faceroll walk-in-the-park.

 

The problem is a combination between boring combat system, the number of combat, and their difficulty. If you have a fun & engaging combat system with a bit of depth, then a high number of encounter isn't a issue. Even if they are quite easy, it's still pleasant to do and you can enjoy them. But here, well... SWTOR isn't really known for its combat system. If you want to make a game with a big focus on story and you have a dull combat system, then either have to reduce the number of encounter or make them a bit challenging. SWTOR have a lot a not-so-engaging combat that are getting easier and easier each update. Killing the challenge without changing the combat system isn't the solution.

[IanArgent]

I'm not even talking about starfortress or any heroic mode, I'm just talking about regular leveling sole content. I understand the point of lowering the skill entry barrier, I don't understand the will to kill absolutely all challenge to the point it becomes a boring faceroll walk-in-the-park.

 

The problem is a combination between boring combat system, the number of combat, and their difficulty. If you have a fun & engaging combat system with a bit of depth, then a high number of encounter isn't a issue. Even if they are quite easy, it's still pleasant to do and you can enjoy them. But here, well... SWTOR isn't really known for its combat system. If you want to make a game with a big focus on story and you have a dull combat system, then either have to reduce the number of encounter or make them a bit challenging. SWTOR have a lot a not-so-engaging combat that are getting easier and easier each update. Killing the challenge without changing the combat system isn't the solution.

 

Just because it's a walk in the park for you doesn't mean it's a walk in teh par for everyone. Particularly if you're on-level

[publicenemies]

the main issue i have about companions is i bought hk-51 off the cm and for them to just remove his unique skills is quite concerning it taught me to not buy anything else off the cm ever again after that if they can just take something you bought and remove things and make hk a waste and nothing like he was is pretty concerning..

 

The story in kotfe was good but this alliance thing is a waste and im not gonna bother with it. Why do i need an alliance when i have a world eater at my disposal? secondly why do i need more comps that are just the same as the ones i have now? i dont even use the comps i have now that much i certainly dont need more.

 

What dev thought it was a good idea to form an alliance and get more comps when thier all the same? this wasnt well thought out at all lol.

[Feanar]

IF you can solo heroic mode star fortress, you are doing better than the majority of players; and BW should not be using your experience to calibrate the difficulty curve.

 

It's NOT that hard. I've soloed it on HC without any buffs for one and only achi, in 216 gear with rank 30 lana, and haven't even got close once to dying. It just takes freakishly long to do.

 

I'm pretty sure it can be done with rank 20 comp and in 208 gear as well, it would just take longer.

[commandersshep]

i dont understand why you say light vs dark side does not aply anymore ? it does , the new emperor is the old one on the brink of defeat and to week to fight so he leave to wait his time to return. but he found a powerful empire that rival any other he seen before and decide to take over to use it in his scheam . its clear from the begining that he plan his own son rebelion by this struggle with is brother . its also clear he think you are special since you are the one who brought him to the brink of defeat and fear you .

 

he lure you with misterious attack from this new force , trap you there and stage his own death . then all too convinien he invade your mind and push you to fight his own childs and try to stir you to his his side , he want you to use his power . the question is why ? why does he fear you ? why does he try to convince you he change ? why does he seam to have rule the new empire has a benyvolent and loved ruler ?

 

now i could be wrong but it seem like clasical sith scheam to me , have to people fight each other to accomplish his own goal . what is real goal his ? we dont know yet but i feel like light vs dark is at the center of it all. but like palpatine , the emporor cloud his true intend and wait for his time to strike .

 

i really dought that his son is the true nemesis here , but merely a tool to the emperor lust for power !

 

btw i really hate the new conversation system i hope it is just when the alliance is concern and the rest of the story is told by the conventionnal old interaction system . i like to hear myself lol

[Xsentius]

After playing and living of the masterful stories of SWTOR, Knights of the Fallen Empire just felt simply poor and cheap story..

You are not alone..

I live for a good story, a good story is the holiest thing for me..

And Old Republic era is one of them, and all gone for me..

I did not invest money like you but, I invest my many time nearly 2000 hours in many servers..

I am just a stalker, who stands in the shadows and listens, reads, makes researches..

I feel same.. I think same like you..

All emotional bond, all logic, all sense is gone, and I feel empty now..

I want to play the game, I want too much but, I can not tolerate the story anymore from when I first witnessed..

I am not a MMO guy, I am the guy who loves RPG, the person who is living the story..

All uniquness of those companions are gone, they are all just a faceless NPCs anymore..

You can buy their affection with common data crystals, not with your decisions or your acts..

But same like you, I just want to feel "there is still hope"..

I dont know I feel a hope for optimizing the story but, nevermind..

Thanks for the translating my thoughts and feelings about KotFE.

Finally I witness an individual in this world who is appreciates a good story, and knows what is the good story and what has to be..

Edited December 8, 2015 by Xsentius

[well]

Just because it's a walk in the park for you doesn't mean it's a walk in teh par for everyone. Particularly if you're on-level

 

You might want to be careful. I heard you can be banned for common sense.

[Slowpokeking]

I agree with quite a few of your points.

 

1. Our achievement, along with the pub and the sith were pointless due to the destruction.

 

2. "The Outlander" character and role doesn't fit every class. My Imperial Agent suffered from it as well. I don't think I should be give speech to troops so much and become a public leader, which had little to do with my previous job, nor should I become the mortal enemy of a few mighty Force sensitives head to head.

 

3. Vitiate and Valkorion didn't just have confusing past. They let me feel that they are totally different characters.

 

Vitiate is a monster, a completely manic who only wanted to consume everything for his own, and he sacrificed a lot to make his physical form nearly immortal.

 

Valkorion is more like a mighty but also rational leader, he wanted to create a powerful order to rule the galaxy as the center, even willing to share with quite a few individuals. He even pointed out the Sith Empire's flaws well when you talk about it. He also didn't really care much about immortal physical form.

 

However, this isn't really a bad thing, Vitiate is a very boring character, not even count as a character, just a huge threat. Valkorion's personality was much more interesting.

[Slowpokeking]

i dont understand why you say light vs dark side does not aply anymore ? it does , the new emperor is the old one on the brink of defeat and to week to fight so he leave to wait his time to return. but he found a powerful empire that rival any other he seen before and decide to take over to use it in his scheam . its clear from the begining that he plan his own son rebelion by this struggle with is brother . its also clear he think you are special since you are the one who brought him to the brink of defeat and fear you .

 

he lure you with misterious attack from this new force , trap you there and stage his own death . then all too convinien he invade your mind and push you to fight his own childs and try to stir you to his his side , he want you to use his power . the question is why ? why does he fear you ? why does he try to convince you he change ? why does he seam to have rule the new empire has a benyvolent and loved ruler ?

 

now i could be wrong but it seem like clasical sith scheam to me , have to people fight each other to accomplish his own goal . what is real goal his ? we dont know yet but i feel like light vs dark is at the center of it all. but like palpatine , the emporor cloud his true intend and wait for his time to strike .

 

i really dought that his son is the true nemesis here , but merely a tool to the emperor lust for power !

 

btw i really hate the new conversation system i hope it is just when the alliance is concern and the rest of the story is told by the conventionnal old interaction system . i like to hear myself lol

 

The thing is that this Emperor looks like a different character. Vitiate's goal was to devour all lives, I don't see him share power with any of us. He would have used the effort to devour everything rather than build another mighty empire to rule.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[GalacticKegger]

Too many spoilers in the OP to be a palatable read. But the OP's message was clear and one that I personally agree with. KotFE is no longer SWTOR. In my mind's eye (which has been poked often enough to cause intermittent myopia) Bioware (at the behest of EA & Disney I presume) is rabidly chasing the newly acquirable Force Awakens crowd.

 

What they may have done in the process is alienate their core player base. I can't fault them for trying to hit a box office grand slam. But if they don't, one can only hope that they reset to pre-4.0, improve on what was working, fix the things that weren't, and give their true purist backers some much needed love.

Edited December 9, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[_NovaBlast_]

Lets not start the whole MMO means people HAVE to group together BS.

 

It's simply not true and is used to justify all sorts to stupid *** ****.

 

So much this ^^^^ include people writing essays on how swtor cant survive without what they call "actual content"

 

It comes from them thinking they are the top of the food chain delusions of grandeur they truly believe no game could possibly survive without them or there content.

Edited December 9, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Wayshuba]

Personally I don't think it erased much at all.

 

Main thrust of all stories was the on-going war between the Empire and Republic since the return of the Sith. RoTHC continued along this line. Then came SoR which made us aware the Emperor was still out there and Ziost showed us his power.

 

Jump forward five years to KotFE and we have an new empire. While the Republic and Old Empire wasted their resources on one another wearing each other down, a new empire rose up waiting for the right moment to strike. In the beginning, when you first meet in the Throne Room, a comment is made about how they have been attacking planets in both the Republic and Empire. The response was they were testing our strength. In other words, the new Empire was biding its time to conquer both the Republic and Empire. He let them waste their resources on each other while he waited until they were weak to strike. In other words, a new super power is rising in the Galaxy and all our efforts with the older war are still there, but while we were going through that story, a new Empire was quietly arising.

 

I see this more as the death of old Empires and the rise of the new Empire - much like the US rose to prominence with the decline of Old Empires at the conclusion of WWII. This has happened in real history - why not in SWTOR?

[ekwalizer]

@OP:

My guess is that they are going to tie it altogether with the Star Forge. That is really the only thing I can think of that would allow Vitiate to create an "infinite" empire worth of ships, droids, etc.

 

"The Star Forge is the glory of the Builders, the apex of their Infinite Empire. It is a machine of invincible might, a tool of unstoppable conquest." ―The Overseer http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Forge

[gsummers]

He let them waste their resources on each other while he waited until they were weak to strike. In other words, a new super power is rising in the Galaxy and all our efforts with the older war are still there, but while we were going through that story, a new Empire was quietly arising.

 

I see this more as the death of old Empires and the rise of the new Empire - much like the US rose to prominence with the decline of Old Empires at the conclusion of WWII. This has happened in real history - why not in SWTOR?

 

I am actually really disappointed in the Zakuul Empire. I envisioned it being a vast powerful empire. Instead, it is basically one planet, that found a neat toy (Eternal Fleet), figured out how to control it, and tied that control to a chair in some room. So that one person can sit in that chair and control this automated fleet and army (skytroopers) across the galaxy. This means to defeat it, all we will need to do is slice the chair. Or defeat that one dude that sits in the chair, and then the Zakuul empire will have no more resources than anyother backwater planet.

 

Where is the state? The vast expanses of territory? The colonies? The political intrigue? The stripping away at its power bases and frontiers to wear it down so that we can eventually overcome it? We get none of that. Instead, what we have is essentially one dude with a really big gun, and his psycho sidekick sister who is just as apt to kill him as she is to kill us.

 

In Chapter One they seem like such a foreboding threat. By the end of Chapter 6, they are far, far, far less impressive.

[LogunOne]

OP,…. KOTFE doesn’t trivialize the story it grounds it, this is just the way War is. We go to War with nations in the 60’s and 70’s and today we play their video games ….LOL. In the 40’s two nations came together to fight a greater threat only to go back to fighting a cold war for the next 40 years …. This cycle repeats itself in human history over and over again…….is War pointless, yes ….but it’s never trivial.

You might want to consider that both the light and dark sides are not right and Balance and Peace is always in the shadows.

[Slowpokeking]

I am actually really disappointed in the Zakuul Empire. I envisioned it being a vast powerful empire. Instead, it is basically one planet, that found a neat toy (Eternal Fleet), figured out how to control it, and tied that control to a chair in some room. So that one person can sit in that chair and control this automated fleet and army (skytroopers) across the galaxy. This means to defeat it, all we will need to do is slice the chair. Or defeat that one dude that sits in the chair, and then the Zakuul empire will have no more resources than anyother backwater planet.

 

Where is the state? The vast expanses of territory? The colonies? The political intrigue? The stripping away at its power bases and frontiers to wear it down so that we can eventually overcome it? We get none of that. Instead, what we have is essentially one dude with a really big gun, and his psycho sidekick sister who is just as apt to kill him as she is to kill us.

 

In Chapter One they seem like such a foreboding threat. By the end of Chapter 6, they are far, far, far less impressive.

Agree, most of their characters are faceless goons.

[Air_mil]

First I think the OP is very well written and appreciate your passion for SWTOR is commendable. There are many interesting perspectives throughout this thread. Let me add my 2 cents:

I have only recently started playing because my circumstances did not allow me to enjoy SWTOR from the beginning. I have only progressed 1 character to level 25 so far, but decided to jump into KOTFE just for the hell of it.

 

Now, I enjoy SWTOR, but within the frame that it is a MMO (which I do not love) rather than a stand alone like the KOTOR games. That being said: SWTOR is a good game that lets me dive back into the Old Republic era.

 

I am currently in chapter 4 of KOTFE, but I cannot get enough of it. I love the way the story is being told so far. When I started playing it I felt like I was playing KOTOR 3, rather then an MMO. Now I completely understand the felling that the change in story direction has over-ridded past character accomplishments. And I also have some raised eyebrow *** moments as to what is happening in KOTFE, but I cannot get enough. I cannot wait to see how they conclude the story. It might be amazing, I might be terrible. We will see.

 

What does disturb me is that it does seem completely over the top. And I felt the set up for SWTOR was over the top and did not fit into the overall SW story well. Even going back to the KOTORs it felt a little over the top and did not integrate perfectly into the SW-Verse. I recall reading in a comic or book that "The Republic has never fallen." It has stood tall for thousands of years. Now all the KOTOR stories (Games, Books and Comics) don't necessarily contradict that statement, but they do leave the Republic taking one hell of a beating. It would be the most challenging period in Republic History and probably be well documented and studied.

 

This brings me to my main issue. We know how the SWTOR/KOTFE story will end. Has to end. The Republic wins. At some point the Sith Empire and the Eternal Empire must fall, and the Republic must resume its place as the main force of government in the galaxy. At least until the Sith/Jedi conflict of 1000 BBY.

 

My main story issue is that if both Republic and Empire fall or are seriously subdued by the Eternal Empire; somebody would of remembered it... Like stated about the conflicts above, this would be a critical moment in galactic history, and would not be soon forgotten. Perhaps modern contemporaries would have all the details, but it would be a big deal. But as a previous poster stated, I will suspend my disbelief and just enjoy the ride!

[light_senshi]

My personal main criticism would be that the player character does not really feel like the protagonist anymore. Lana is the protagonist, the player character is just one of her enforcers. They all say things like "you made all of this possible" but the character in the centre of it all, who really created the alliance, came up with the plan, is Lana Beniko. It completely eludes me what Darth Marr wants of me at the beginning of the story. Shouldn't he better be talking to Lana?

 

This is the point that most people seem to gloss over and is what produces the biggest problem for the plot. It breaks one of my cardinal rules of storytelling: The main character is no longer the center of the story.