Customer support about equipment removal

[Max_Killjoy]

Granted this may not have been the most reasonable thing to do, but people would probably be alot more willing to keep feedback to the forum if they felt it actually gets them somewhere for a change. I mean it's not like you had anything to share about this topic before this thread popped up and I can't even count the threads where people ask valid questions without anyone of you ever answering.

 

It would also help if 75% of feedback posts were not met with an ongoing diatribe of derision and belittlement by a vehemently vocal minority of toxic forum-griefers.

[Loranae]

Hey folks,

 

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces. If there are specific armor sets that can no longer be found, send the information to the Community Team and we’ll pass it along.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy, come to the forums and raise it here. Going to Customer Support is not the correct place for that (and we will ask CS agents to direct you appropriately).

 

Thank you all for your understanding and hope that clears up any confusion on the issue.

 

-eric

 

Eric just a little note about the fact that we can find some :

 

Indeed when i finished the last chapter, i received in some rewards, some piece of armor that were from the old times BUT the big problem of this is : they are all bind on legacy, so even if i would like to pass it to afriend who is looking for it, its a no, and i sold yesterday to the vendor about 18 pieces of armor that i know people would have wanted.

 

May be you coudl remove this *gating* ?

 

Also as you are the main community responsible could we have a clear answer about the outfitable and non outfitable companions please ?

What is the difference you made to know which of them will be at one time outfitable or none of the KOTFE will be ever able to get an outfit ?

 

If so could you please stop to call them companion, as those are more meatbags than companion as we can not really play as we did before. And as everyone has absolutely the same npc with them, this is totally breaking the rp background. So are you pushing the game outside of the rp side ? just to know for the futur please could you answer ?

 

(well if there was a good thing about those companions outfit non available this is that now i dont need ever to buy any pack, not even a single dye. I just wear actually a set totally black and did this for all my characters, that way i feel less intrusive the whole new coloured imposed npc running with us)

Edited October 24, 2015 by Loranae

[trueKieran]

It would also help if 75% of feedback posts were not met with an ongoing diatribe of derision and belittlement by a vehemently vocal minority of toxic forum-griefers.

I wholeheartedly agree, but there's only so much you can do about fanboys.

[Brodoin]

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

 

I don't get this. How do stat changes make gear obsolete? Equipment vendors sold mostly mod gear and a some blue gear.

 

How is making getting the gear again into a scavenger hunt of heroics and crafting better?

[AdrianDmitruk]

Hey folks,

 

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. (emphasis added) The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces. If there are specific armor sets that can no longer be found, send the information to the Community Team and we’ll pass it along.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy, come to the forums and raise it here. Going to Customer Support is not the correct place for that (and we will ask CS agents to direct you appropriately).

 

Thank you all for your understanding and hope that clears up any confusion on the issue.

 

-eric

 

Eric, I'll put it like this: I'm going into a field where if something is not documented, legally it did not happen.

 

I imagine EA lawyers keep a tight leash on you, so you of all people should understand that general concept.

 

Now I wasn't personally affected or even butthurt by these changes, but I did see this on the dev tracker, and the fact of the matter is that Bioware repeats the same mistake you made with 2.0: removing gear that players liked to mod for appearance even if its "stats" were "obsolete." Now, this is even worse because we don't even have to mod the "obsolete" gear anymore; we have appearance tabs. And waving your hands around and saying these missing armor sets and weapons can still be found in the game just won't cut it.

 

Document where the removed armor/weapon shells can be found, or they cannot be found. Because if you don't document something, it legally didn't happen. Your customers deserve that.

 

You really should have compiled this kind of list to direct confused customers to what they sought before creating this kind of confusion, but I do believe some of the anger around here might be sated if you showed Bioware cared enough to do such a compilation now.

Edited October 24, 2015 by AdrianDmitruk

[Syncronis]

Hey folks,

 

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces. If there are specific armor sets that can no longer be found, send the information to the Community Team and we’ll pass it along.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy, come to the forums and raise it here. Going to Customer Support is not the correct place for that (and we will ask CS agents to direct you appropriately).

 

Thank you all for your understanding and hope that clears up any confusion on the issue.

 

-eric

 

Confusion? Now whose fault is that? You are personally laying blame with the customer, as a Community Manager?

 

Why do you think this customer did this? They did it because of how silent support has been in the forums and then you try to shame them when the customer seeks answers and they were poorly handled? The customer demonstrated logical failures in the responses received and you again lay blame with the customer?

 

What is your mission statement for the customer? Remember this is the group that gives the reason for why you and everyone else working on a product called Star Wars the old Republic are here, it is the ONLY reason why you are here.

 

Previously existing objects that directly affect player customization and choice over several years have been removed and it is being spin doctored as a "Feature".

 

Lastly, enough with the hey folks. We are not your friends, we are not your buddies, we are not interested in getting chummy with you, we are your customers, paying the bills is what keeps the lights on, not thumbs up buddy statements.

[Reno_Tarshil]

It would also help if 75% of feedback posts were not met with an ongoing diatribe of derision and belittlement by a vehemently vocal minority of toxic forum-griefers.

 

You mean met with people who have a differing opinion and do not agree with said feedback.

[DalrisThane]

And waving your hands around and saying these missing armor sets and weapons can still be found in the game just won't cut it.

 

As much as I agree with you, AdrianDmitruk, I can't see any front facing agents doing anything but the company line.

 

Unless, of course, they want to leave their jobs in a DRAMATIC MANNER.

 

Personal Anecdote

 

A late friend of mine worked as cable outsourcer. A customer wanted to know if he was working for the main company, or an outsourcer. Customer was put on hold.

 

Boss: You tell them you're working at the head office.

 

Friend: But that's a lie. We're an outsourcer.

 

Boss: You work for me. You tell them what I tell you to tell them.

 

Friend: I'm not lying to a customer. Do what you have to.

 

Boss: First off, it's not lying. It's "positioning". Second, if you tell them you're an outsourcer, we'll sue you!

 

Friend (to customer) : We're an outsourcer! (more talking, ends call)

 

Boss: We WILL sue you.

 

Friend: I'm pushing 60. I'm dying from masses in my liver. I'm broke due to the medications and I'm 120 grand in debt with no assets. My wife is dead. I have no kids. If this goes to trial, I tell EVERYTHING I know about this company to anyone that asks, confidentiality clause be damned. I DARE YOU TO SEND ME TO JAIL!!!

 

He got fired, but nothing else happened.

 

I miss him. Quite the fireball of a friend.

 

Oh, and to the "cool story bro" people: even if you don't believe the story, you have to admit that an employee in that situation... REALLY doesn't give a crap about consequences...

 

 

 

Point, though, is unless you're in that position... if you don't want to be fired / sued, you do what you're told. It's why I have little faith that certain things will be fixed or even admitted to on the boards.

 

And I don't really blame the devs. I blame the suits...

Edited October 24, 2015 by DalrisThane

[Max_Killjoy]

You mean met with people who have a differing opinion and do not agree with said feedback.

 

No. I mean precisely, exactly, and only what I actually posted.

 

It's not the people who say "I disagree" or "I disagree and here's why" that I'm talking about.

 

It's the small but highly visible minority who say "I disagree, and your opinion makes you an idiot whiner who knows nothing about anything and proves you're terrible at both the game and at life".

 

Those people are absolutely toxic to the forum as a useful source of communication, feedback, etc -- and they appear to not just accept that, but actively embrace it.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[DalrisThane]

No. I mean precisely, exactly, and only what I actually posted.

 

I wouldn't bother, Max_Killjoy. That poster is purposefully missing your excellent description of the problem: "diatribe of derision and belittlement".

Edited October 24, 2015 by DalrisThane

[Reno_Tarshil]

No. I mean precisely, exactly, and only what I actually posted.

 

Then you are interpreting what other people with differing people's opinions are being said.

[malace_ixo]

I'm not happy about it. Levelling in a decent outfit (as a new or in my case returning player) is far less feasible now. I understandably haven't had millions for the gtn or fully exploring the crafting system. Literally spent ages poring through vendor inventories, tor-loot and tor-fashion to find what might, at a minimum, portray the kind of cinematic experience I was going for. Even making liberal use of equipment vendors I felt severe limitations trying to piece anything together from the CC's in my sub and the credits I could scrounge. If I was lucky, ch.1-3 would get me enough to sponsor my next character's appearance while the leftover comms took care of staying appropriately geared. On established, endgame legacies I guess this isn't really an issue but if I were still early on in a few class stories this would definitely have diminished a lot of my interest in subbing.

 

There are several warped heuristics showing up in this thread.

[Max_Killjoy]

Then you are interpreting what other people with differing people's opinions are being said.

 

There's no interpretation needed when certain posters repeatedly respond to any and every concern, question, or criticism posted by another player with some form of venomous personal attack, and attribute all disagreement to personal / character faults in the person they're responding to.

[Sinapus]

You mean met with people who have a differing opinion and do not agree with said feedback.

 

Why is there no complaint about toxic feedback?

 

[Forgettableone]

I'm not one to post angry but the below got me more than a little riled up.

 

Reason being I tested tested putting a heavy chest on Mako (switched it off'f my main for 2 seconds) and found that it worked so I went ahead and bought a couple of straight to 60 slots as it opened up the looks I wanted to go for on new characters.

 

I got these characters up and running then went off on my jolly way to run Black Out on Taris for the gear I wanted to put the companions in.... Low and behold the mission reward has changed. Went to check the planetary equipment vendor - none existent, checked fleet, same story... came on the forums and discovered what happened.

 

Edited in my comments...

 

Hey folks,

 

we essentially made that gear obsolete - Why in the name of the force would you open up companions to be aesthetically modified to wear everything then remove a massive amount of gear that they could wear?

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces.

 

As Wildcoast asked about the TH-15A set I'll chime in with this because I'm after the same set but imp versions...

Method 1 - missions - fine for level appropriate, but for someone like me who's got nothing but lvl 60's it's useless unless you pray for a random drop from a box (as mentioned in the vid/soundbite) that may never come - especially since I need at least a dozen of the damned things

Method 2 - Crafting - the Mercenary Elite Chest - same model but is locked behind a "can only be worn by BH/SW" and therefore can't be used by companions.

Method 3 - "adjust that over time and slowly re-add"... so wait til the devs put everything up on to the CM then?

Method 4 - What we're reduced to in the meantime..... Scour the GTN like a pack of hyenas on a carcass looking for the armour pieces we want and praying someone doesn't spot our shopping patterns and starts charging a fortune.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy,

 

I'm a CSA myself suffer from this all the time.... bottom line if you don't give your ground troops the right info or are clear enough with the customers in a timely manner - you're gonna get your own people in the proverbial and taking a load of fire that could have been completely negated by a single post 2 weeks ago.

 

Thank you all for your understanding and hope that clears up any confusion on the issue.

 

IF WE'D HAVE BEEN INFORMED IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN AN ISSUE

-eric

 

Bottom line Eric.... It's just not cricket

Edited October 24, 2015 by Forgettableone

[MrBorsh]

Hey folks,

 

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces. If there are specific armor sets that can no longer be found, send the information to the Community Team and we’ll pass it along.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy, come to the forums and raise it here. Going to Customer Support is not the correct place for that (and we will ask CS agents to direct you appropriately).

 

Thank you all for your understanding and hope that clears up any confusion on the issue.

 

-eric

 

Hey Eric.

 

I am the caller, and I am the one who uploaded the video. The reason for me calling Customer Support was not in order to get the equipment back, but for your agent to motivate me to continue my subscription to the game. I can agree that I crossed the line here and there, and it was part of the frustration and the massive disappointment. And personally I felt that these changes are not changes that you did not inform us about. I clearly stated that you guys need to be more transparent. There is a difference of being transparent and spoiling the whole concept of for example making crafting more usable.

 

Generally, I did not intend to go so far into a discussion with a customer support agent, but him going kind of back and forth and not bringing up a syncronized story with your customer support agent in comparison with what you're telling here; makes me believe that you're not being transparent with the agents handling customer support when they get complainments about this.

 

The Customer Support Agent continously repeated that it was not mentioned in his job description with anything about this, while last time I checked, anything that is customer related is directly related to service. I am myself educated in the service & sales industry, so when I see bad customer treatment or bad service, I will be forward and point it out. That's why I as well got upset multiple times during this conversation when he mentioned that it didn't directly affect him personally. None could really care less what the customer support believes unless it is directly involving you. E.g. for example when you buy a new headset and the customer handler is saying "I'd personally buy these instead of those". Instead I can make an example of how this customer support would be in comparison to for example buying a headset. I'd go up and ask which headset is best and the customer handler would reply "I don't care, it does not affect me personally".

 

I do not seek to file a report towards your customer support agent as I believe that you made his job harder than I made it during that conversation.

 

 

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

While this is understandable, it was not justified to remove them. Especially without informing any of us before actually doing this. I understand you're simplifying the gearing system and that is completely fine. I do not expect there to be zero bugs or anything to be perfect from day 1. But there are other solutions than to just leave them out. Like for example which I mentioned to the agent here that you could rather have removed the armourings/barrels, mods, enhancements, and color crystals instead.

 

For the Level 40 Class Specified PvP vendor located on the capital worlds (Dromund Kaas & Coruscant), e.g Coruscant Trooper PvP Vendor (which was located at the trainer area) - same solution there. Remove armourings, mods, enhancements from the gear pieces itself. No need to remove the armor sets itself.

 

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces. If there are specific armor sets that can no longer be found, send the information to the Community Team and we’ll pass it along.

I do not quite see why we would have to request armor sets all over again. You guys have said in that Cartel Market Suggestion thread about armor sets that you want us to keep them coming in order to give us good armor sets. You never said anything about removing them. Prior to this, I've already explained that I do not want to search around and wait for an eventual random drop of a schematic for the TH-15B War Medic Armor Set, TH-15A Medic Commando Armor Set or for example TH-15A Patrol Armor set. This will take way longer time than it used to. As I said earlier, if you want to make the gameplay more difficult for players, you need to make the NPCs either more powerful or the companions less powerful. Because right now the companions got like 8000 HP on Coruscant while I got 1500 HP.

 

I am glad to hear you will readd armors from time to time, but please at least give us back those I've mentioned right now and you can buy the gear(Armourings, Mods, Enhancements, Barrels & Crystals) seperatedly from the equipment itself.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy, come to the forums and raise it here. Going to Customer Support is not the correct place for that (and we will ask CS agents to direct you appropriately).

I assume you've seen the video or heard the conversation. I assume that it was recorded and is found in your archive. You can clearly hear that I ask for help here in order to get some questions answered and help to continue my motivation for subscription for SWTOR. These equipment changes were really annoying to me and I felt previous hard work was just for granted and that it was not appreciated. Your customer support agent directed me to the email for these kind of complainments as well which I thank him for.

[Teladis]

It is understandable. People will get over it. Not that big of a deal. Keep up the good work Bio.

[IanArgent]

No. I mean precisely, exactly, and only what I actually posted.

 

It's not the people who say "I disagree" or "I disagree and here's why" that I'm talking about.

 

It's the small but highly visible minority who say "I disagree, and your opinion makes you an idiot whiner who knows nothing about anything and proves you're terrible at both the game and at life".

 

Those people are absolutely toxic to the forum as a useful source of communication, feedback, etc -- and they appear to not just accept that, but actively embrace it.

 

You said it ather more politely than I might have stated things. If you're arguing ANY side and making me want to blacklist you, you're doing it wrong.

Edited October 24, 2015 by IanArgent

[JDiablos]

Second post of this thread

 

... Wow what a disappointment.

 

And now...

 

Hey Eric.

 

I am the caller, and I am the one who uploaded the video...

 

 

Consider me amused.

[Tolunart]

Point, though, is unless you're in that position... if you don't want to be fired / sued, you do what you're told. It's why I have little faith that certain things will be fixed or even admitted to on the boards.

 

And I don't really blame the devs. I blame the suits...

 

Don't kill the messenger. The people who answer the phones and post on the forums don't make the decisions or set the policies, and do not have the power to change things. Those who do will not interact with most customers and even if they are open to suggestions they have a different perspective and consider data from more sources than you or I have access to.

 

Often the people you do come into contact with cannot change or explain a situation because they don't have any information about it either - Eric cannot post an announcement on the forums if he wasn't told about it. CS reps can't explain why things happened in the game if they don't know any more about it than we do. And even if they do, if ordered not to talk about it, they just aren't going to talk about it.

 

Complain about it if it makes you feel better, but the ones who can make changes aren't listening.

[Papazmurf]

Second post of this thread

 

 

 

And now...

 

 

 

 

Consider me amused.

 

Now that's actually quite funny. So much butt hurt in this patch. I always read about people complaining about re-skins in the CC market. Surely the majority of these outfits can be found in another set and then fixed with a dye.

 

Yeah BW should've warned people, but this isn't the end of the world and there's probably a work around for 90%+ of the stuff currently.

[Narien]

Hey folks,

 

For the question at hand about why equipment was removed from various vendors, this is due primarily to stat changes. With the release of Fallen Empire, we essentially made that gear obsolete due to the new stat configurations and formulas. This meant the best option was to remove those items. Obviously, this raises the main concern of the support call which is the appearances of those armor sets.

 

The dev team informs us that virtually all of the core armor appearances previously on those vendors can still be located throughout the game. The majority of the old armor sets can be found via Crafting rewards, Missions, and Heroic Mission rewards. Now, there may be some variants of these core armor sets which are no longer available, but we’ll adjust that over time and slowly re-add pieces. If there are specific armor sets that can no longer be found, send the information to the Community Team and we’ll pass it along.

 

Taking a bite out of the people who can help with getting you back into the game, helping you restore missing items or characters, and addressing any billing issues, really isn’t a good use of your time, or theirs. As a general note, if you guys have feedback or questions about design decisions or development philosophy, come to the forums and raise it here. Going to Customer Support is not the correct place for that (and we will ask CS agents to direct you appropriately).

 

Thank you all for your understanding and hope that clears up any confusion on the issue.

 

-eric

 

I'm sorry Musco, but that's possibly one of the most condescending posts I've seen from a CM in a long time. You unilaterally, and without warning, decided to remove an overwhelming number of item appearances (both armor and weapon) from the game. Then, when your playerbase (understandably) freaks out about it, you turn around and effectively tell them to shut up.

 

I'm not every expecting to see any of those items again. At least, not outside of the CM paywall. I may be a huge fan of the story in KotFE, but the manner in which this large scale alteration of the gearing and appearance game has occurred has me reconsidering my sub.

[MrBorsh]

Second post of this thread

 

 

 

And now...

 

 

 

 

Consider me amused.

 

Sure I'll admit that I did not want to come out as the caller as I wanted to keep this anonymously. The call itself was meant to show that it was not good service provided by the customer support. Neither did I post the video. Someone else posted it. I just happened to see it at the right time. When Eric replied, I figured as much as to stand out as I was the one who called and answer for myself.

 

I do not care if you feel amused or not. I still sleep good every evening.

 

 

EDIT: Post above proves that I am right and that I am not the only one reconsidering my subscription here.

Edited October 24, 2015 by MrBorsh

[malace_ixo]

It is understandable. People will get over it. Not that big of a deal. Keep up the good work Bio.

 

I see little qualifying this modality. Admittedly, some complainants have generally been quite shallow (OP himself seems to have misinterpreted the role of customer service as an avenue to vent), but what you've posted is similarly bereft of investment. No argument officially put forward has addressed how weird this choice was, let alone the fact there was no reasonable indication to expect it. This reads as an inappropriate drive-by. Am I right to assume this?

[Tolunart]

Now that's actually quite funny. So much butt hurt in this patch. I always read about people complaining about re-skins in the CC market. Surely the majority of these outfits can be found in another set and then fixed with a dye.

 

Yeah BW should've warned people, but this isn't the end of the world and there's probably a work around for 90%+ of the stuff currently.

 

Two universal truths about MMOs:

 

1: Any aspect of the game can change and given enough time, most things will.

 

2: Any change will trigger intense complaints.

 

Therefore, the people working on the game expect that *someone* will complain about anything and everything they do. They quickly learn how to continue leading a normal life anyway.

Edited October 24, 2015 by Tolunart