Level Sync needs an Off Button! : ).

[Ghisallo]

You mean like the removal of skill trees replaced by disciplines? You can cry all you want, its not going to change anything. For the 100th time MMO's evolve. If you don't like it, the choice is always there to stop playing.

 

It doesn't matter if it will change or not. If my sub (which is canceled BUT was a multi month recurring) still has time on it I will complain.

 

As for your analogy its not exactly apples to apples. Most everyone used the exact same builds anywho AND SWTOR, unlike RIFT, had a history of trying to crush hybrid builds when they were discovered. So really the skill tree set up was an unnecessary complication. Here we don't have something with a practical purpose from both the player and developer stand point. Here we have BW doing something they saw as a necessary evil based on demands for EA and trying to put as brave a face on it as possible.

 

Also, saying "if you don't like it just leave" well that is not how the free market works. The free market works by you not only leaving BUT by letting the business know WHY you are leaving. Without that feed back then companies would not be able to engage in dynamic competition.

[Ghisallo]

Questioning a decision is one thing, but at this point, the "questioning" has, IMO, reached the point of whining, crying and demanding that BW cater to the aversion to effort that some players seem to have.

 

You want to talk about changes in a 4 year old game? You want to go back to the way it was 4 years ago?

 

Let's start with leveling. Let's go back to a time before 12XP or the new streamlined leveling.

 

Let's talk about datacrons. For almost 4 years, this game did not have account wide datacrons. Let's go back to that.

 

As has been said, games change over time. Players need to learn to adjust to the changes. Whining, crying and banging your fists on the floor like a petulant 5 year old will not change this fact. Seldom is a change either universally liked or disliked. Some changes are liked by some. Other changes are liked by others.

 

This change seems to be one that many people accept. Some seem to be very happy with this change.

 

A few, though, continue to whine and cry about having to spend a few extra seconds going around a pack of mobs instead of straight through it, or actually having to hit more than one button in combat.

 

First nice straw manning. There is a difference between changing individual parts of a game over time and altering its central paradigm all at once.

 

Second, did you say the same about "whining" when people complained in prior expacs about not enough story? Or this expac about the Companion Nerf?

Edited January 3, 2016 by Ghisallo

[GalacticKegger]

First nice straw manning. There is a difference between changing individual parts of a game over time and altering its central paradigm all at once.

 

Second, did you say the same about "whining" when people complained in prior expacs about not enough story? Or this expac about the Companion Nerf?

That wasn't a nerf. That was a drive by homicide. Edited January 3, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Transcendent]

This change seems to be one that many people accept. Some seem to be very happy with this change.

 

Based on what exactly? Where have you taken this impression from? That's an assumption at best.

 

Level sync, as it has been implemented, quite simply isn't good enough. Do I take an issue with the level sync being in the game at all? No, I actually don't take an issue with it being available.

 

Having Level sync in place for the whole KotFE premise is fine, for making the Heroic 2+ carousel wheel grind tedious (at best) could have been done much more smoothly with Heroic Areas that we already have in the game. No reason why that couldn't have been done (not an engine limitation as it's already in the game).

 

As it stands? 37 days left on my time card, no amount of PR hype or artificially increased grind of old content will make me retain my subscription. I don't care about playing as HK-55 or other vanity rewards that haven't even been announced yet, Austin can keep them.

 

Funny thing is, I would have retained my subscription without Level Sync being in the open world (non-heroic areas) purely to continue with the achievements, same for Flashpoints and Operations (I was running them frequently pre 4.0 - since 4.0 I've run a grand total of 1 flashpoint and 0 operations). So, opposite effect to making old content relevant, Heroic 2+? Spammed those, bored of those now, so unless it's for personal conquest points to get materials / credits? Yep, not even going to bother with the grind.

 

So Level Sync? Poorly designed and implemented for players like myself who actually didn't even need any new content to even be produced just yet (I was still busy with the old content, and quite happy with running it as it was).

 

New story was nice though, but not enough to make me retain my subscription.

[Raansu]

As for your analogy its not exactly apples to apples. Most everyone used the exact same builds anywho AND SWTOR, unlike RIFT, had a history of trying to crush hybrid builds when they were discovered. So really the skill tree set up was an unnecessary complication. Here we don't have something with a practical purpose from both the player and developer stand point. Here we have BW doing something they saw as a necessary evil based on demands for EA and trying to put as brave a face on it as possible.

 

A lot of the classes were completely redesigned with the discipline trees. To say "everyone plays the exact same builds anyways" is just ignorance. Not even a matter of hybrids. Look at PT. They swapped AP and Pyro around, but even then, both playstyles drastically changed. Pyro now being AP retained a bit of how it used to be, but its not the same. Something about it now feels off, feels clunky, I don't like it. I also liked the old AP (now pyro). Current pyro is just crap.

 

Scrapper scoundrel? Plays nothing like it used to. I hate the way it plays now. Fortunately carnage marauders for the most part play the same aside from ravage being weak as hell now so I still have my favorite class to play at least even though I hate what they did to annihilation (though much more playable now than before).

 

End of the day though, this is how MMO's are. They change over time. I don't like what they did to monks in FFXIV so now I play Ninja. It is what it is. When it gets to a point that I no longer enjoy it I move on to another game.

[Ghisallo]

That wasn't a nerf. That was a drive by homicide.

 

Well when you look at how they explain their original intent it was a nerf because it did actually provide for the goal they had in mind to start.

 

That brings me to a point that makes me laugh actually...how some of the people here are being intellectually disingenuous. More than a couple of the people defending level sync now, were raging about how the companion nerf had turned doing the weeklies and the SF quest lines into an "unbearable grind". Well their intent was ALWAYS for it to be a grind the problem was they had craptastic play testing that allowed OP companions to be launched and they waited WAY to long to fix them.

 

The problem never was the nerfed companions, it was level sync, it's just that for some who will play anything (within reason) that SWTOR throws at them, they raged at the obvious. Now that they can basically steam roll the weeklies again it doesn't matter they are happy with that now...even though the real problem wasnt addressed, they just slapped a band aid on it.

 

This leads me to my next point. Why some are saying "stop whining just leave." While a lot of players may want to have a game exactly like they want it to be (again within reason), most of them are not stupid. One even started a thread about this issue. They didn't bother arguing whether the issues being pointed out (level sync, broken bolstering, bugs, exploits, lack of new PvE content etc) were real or not, they are real and a great many people are displeased with it all. Their concern was that between these threads and the Reddits, new players may be scared off due to the criticism.

 

Now are there of course some people who honestly think that this is the BEST EXPAC ever and that there are no problems? Sure. However I don't see these people as the majority. I think most defending BW at this point just like SWTOR period, they don't care what it brings in general, they will adapt because they want story and are attached to their Characters and the IP. This is a very valid mind set. However it also brings the concern noted above because they know the game to continue needs players to bring money in the door and that the criticism can hinder that.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Ghisallo

[Ratajack]

Based on what exactly? Where have you taken this impression from? That's an assumption at best.

 

I say that based on the numbers of people not only on these forums in favor of the level sync, but the numbers of people still playing, even if silently playing. You can see for yourself the people on these forums who have posted their approval of level sync. It stands to reason that a player who is still playing, even if silently playing, has accepted the level sync. Whether they love level sync or hate it, it stands to reason that they have ACCEPTED level sync if they are still playing.

 

Level sync, as it has been implemented, quite simply isn't good enough. Do I take an issue with the level sync being in the game at all? No, I actually don't take an issue with it being available.

 

Having Level sync in place for the whole KotFE premise is fine, for making the Heroic 2+ carousel wheel grind tedious (at best) could have been done much more smoothly with Heroic Areas that we already have in the game. No reason why that couldn't have been done (not an engine limitation as it's already in the game).

 

As it stands? 37 days left on my time card, no amount of PR hype or artificially increased grind of old content will make me retain my subscription. I don't care about playing as HK-55 or other vanity rewards that haven't even been announced yet, Austin can keep them.

 

Funny thing is, I would have retained my subscription without Level Sync being in the open world (non-heroic areas) purely to continue with the achievements, same for Flashpoints and Operations (I was running them frequently pre 4.0 - since 4.0 I've run a grand total of 1 flashpoint and 0 operations). So, opposite effect to making old content relevant, Heroic 2+? Spammed those, bored of those now, so unless it's for personal conquest points to get materials / credits? Yep, not even going to bother with the grind.

 

So Level Sync? Poorly designed and implemented for players like myself who actually didn't even need any new content to even be produced just yet (I was still busy with the old content, and quite happy with running it as it was).

 

New story was nice though, but not enough to make me retain my subscription.

 

And please, don't be a hypocrite and continue to play for free as preferred if you are going to claim that level sync "drove you away". If you are going to publicly "make a stand", at least have the balls to stand by your "stand" and leave the game.

Edited January 4, 2016 by CommunityDroidEU
Rude part removed

[Raansu]

Based on what exactly? Where have you taken this impression from? That's an assumption at best.

 

Same could be said about the supposed dislike for it. Its just an assumption on your part based on forums that straight from BW makes up less than 1% of the total game population. So ya, my assumption is its just the same 10 people complaining and most don't mind it. Most of the people I talk to in game either don't care or they actually like it a lot. End of the day its all assumptions, though I firmly believe the people complaining are in the extreme minority, especially given that BW has completely ignored all of you, so its safe to say its not really an issue for the major population of the game.

[Raansu]

That brings me to a point that makes me laugh actually...how some of the people here are being intellectually disingenuous. More than a couple of the people defending level sync now, were raging about how the companion nerf had turned doing the weeklies and the SF quest lines into an "unbearable grind". Well their intent was ALWAYS for it to be a grind the problem was they had craptastic play testing that allowed OP companions to be launched and they waited WAY to long to fix them.

 

Personally I had no problems with the nerfed companions and was clearing content easily (even the skyfortress imo was still ridiculously easy even with the nerfed companion) and feel they should have stayed nerfed. The way they are right now I never go below 90% HP. Its kind of silly.

[Ghisallo]

A lot of the classes were completely redesigned with the discipline trees. To say "everyone plays the exact same builds anyways" is just ignorance. Not even a matter of hybrids. Look at PT. They swapped AP and Pyro around, but even then, both playstyles drastically changed. Pyro now being AP retained a bit of how it used to be, but its not the same. Something about it now feels off, feels clunky, I don't like it. I also liked the old AP (now pyro). Current pyro is just crap.

 

Scrapper scoundrel? Plays nothing like it used to. I hate the way it plays now. Fortunately carnage marauders for the most part play the same aside from ravage being weak as hell now so I still have my favorite class to play at least even though I hate what they did to annihilation (though much more playable now than before).

 

End of the day though, this is how MMO's are. They change over time. I don't like what they did to monks in FFXIV so now I play Ninja. It is what it is. When it gets to a point that I no longer enjoy it I move on to another game.

 

Straw manning again. Did I say the way the implemented the new advanced classes was a good idea? That they did not take the opportunity to make fundamental changes to the classes that some may not like? Nope. And no it is not ignorance to say, in PvE at least,, that 99% of the time in any OPs group you wuld largely see the exact same builds fight for fight between OPs groups. That was reality.

 

And also, if you would note I acknowledge they change over time. However bits and pieces change over time. Please name me an MMORPG that with an expac introduced ONE piece of new replayable content (the SF) and everything else was either recycled old content through mechanics such as level sync and bolster, the rest of the expac being a shared, 1 and done per character, story.

 

There is a big difference between what we saw here such as the changes to the classes, or the way Rift started actively balancing the Roles on 1 pt builds to eliminate/minimize hybrids, and a complete paradigm shift where the almost sole focus of new development was only on a SP story and not on actually playable content.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Ghisallo

[Raansu]

Straw manning again. Did I say the way the implemented the new advanced classes was a good idea? That they did not take the opportunity to make fundamental changes to the classes that some may not like? Nope. And no it is not ignorance to say, in PvE at least,, that 99% of the time in any OPs group you wuld largely see the exact same builds fight for fight between OPs groups. That was reality.

 

And also, if you would note I acknowledge they change over time. However bits and pieces change over time. Please name me an MMORPG that with an expac introduced ONE piece of new replayable content (the SF) and everything else was either recycled old content through mechanics such as level sync and bolster, the rest of the expac being a shared, 1 and done per character, story.

 

There is a big difference between what we saw here such as the changes to the classes, or the way Rift started actively balancing the Roles on 1 pt builds to eliminate/minimize hybrids, and a complete paradigm shift where the almost sole focus of new development was only on a SP story and not on actually playable content.

 

Alot of MMO's make you go back and do old content or go back to old zones.

 

That said, the "expansion packs" for swtor are not even expansion packs. Hell KotFE was completely free. I think people tend to forget that....This game will never have an actual expansion pack. Just mini updates that are basically DLC.

[Yasawatse]

The only reason i want to be able to turn level sync off is so i dont have trash mobs knocking me off my speeder every 15 seconds while im trying to help my buddy kill some quests. i dont want to fight some level 22 scrubs at lv 65. when im in a group with him and get synced down to his level im fine with that but when im on my own not grouped with anyone, i just want to explore the map in peace. and no i wont deal with it its IRRITATING.

[Ghisallo]

Alot of MMO's make you go back and do old content or go back to old zones.

 

That said, the "expansion packs" for swtor are not even expansion packs. Hell KotFE was completely free. I think people tend to forget that....This game will never have an actual expansion pack. Just mini updates that are basically DLC.

 

You did not answer my question. There is a difference between say FFXIV having you go back and do fates in old zones for your relic and having an ENTIRE expac have ALL of it's playable content be old stuff via level sync and bolster. So please tell me a game that has done this before.

 

As for you last you are now engaging in little more than semantics BS to avoid addressing the issues

 

Rise of the Hutt Cartel digital EXPANSION

Shadow of Revan digital EXPANSION

 

And they also call KOTFE "New SWTOR Expansion - Knights of the Fallen Empire‎" even in the Earnings Calls fom the CFO, forget the Google search. Many MMOs that went f2p started giving the expansions as free to subscribers in order to increase subscription numbers during the launch windows. it may be convenient for you to cll it a DLC because being an expansion poses inconvenient to your argument but it actually makes things WORSE because they have called this their biggest expansion to date. IF their biggest expansion is just a "small DLC" that basically says this game has been doomed since 2012 and everything they have provided since has been little to nothing. is that now a claim you will make to support your argument?

Edited January 4, 2016 by Ghisallo

[Motovator]

The only bad part about the change is getting knocked off your speeder everywhere. That aside I think the level scaling was a good idea.

[Dayshadow]

Yeah, I always said making money was a bad business plan.

 

The execs of course would never throw away a cash cow, but the developers themselves who get a set paycheck it doesn't matter. They get paid the same amount regardless of what project they are working on. Their treatment of this game feels like that of someone intentionally trying to lessen its appeal. Like they'd rather be doing something else with their talent.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Dayshadow

[Exscarion]

The Alliance faction, Companion Affection, gear currency grind and even Star Fortresses are all actually part of the whole that is the current Story. You can not increase alliance faction without crates, crates you get from the level sync'd weeklies and from the Star Fortress unlock quests. These same crates give you gifts to bestow on your companions. They also provide you with currency which can be used to buy crates and/or companion gifts.

 

the current story is that we followed a assumption, that we found the imperor, killed him, on the escape we found some legendary old ship (called gravestone), escaped some other times and now stranded on odessen to blow up those star fortresses. that's the story. not to build up your comps or even your alliance, it's just false conclusion, that this is part of the main story!

yeah to do this unlocks other quests, quests to obtain another 100 comps, you don't even need for anything!

wow these crates provide gifts to get op comps way more op, how great to achieve!

 

1. have grayed out quests provide NO such rewards, thus making it impossible to increase alliance factions, impossible for solo players to get 216 and 220 gear and difficult as all heck for layers to increase Companion affection.

 

on level60 you could still do the black hole, recieve full rewards, reputation and so on. why shouldn't it be possible to any other quest, if the devs want to?

 

You mean like the removal of skill trees replaced by disciplines?

 

well at first i also wasn't a fan of this, but with lv65 it's better to have those disciplines. otherwise these hybrid things would possibly allow anything to happen.

 

For the 100th time MMO's evolve.

 

yes they do. but not every evolvement is for the better. atm this lv sync, like it is, is just pointless and unnecessary. but ransu you got asked a flipsided question, about the companian nerf. how you wanted this to be undo and beeing a crybaby on this. your answer to this was the following quote:

 

That wasn't a nerf. That was a drive by homicide.

 

well to me this nerf leftt the comps still op, but made me think, ok a noob heal might need some help now and made me thought for a second: yeah now it's justifiable to do the heroics, as they where intended prior to 4.0 and this level sync in the process. but than i heared the announcement, that the nerf wasn't intended to be that strong, .... . ok so much for my standpoint at this whole mess.

more interesting is what you stated a bit later on, in the following quote:

 

Personally I had no problems with the nerfed companions and was clearing content easily (even the skyfortress imo was still ridiculously easy even with the nerfed companion) and feel they should have stayed nerfed. The way they are right now I never go below 90% HP. Its kind of silly.

 

and all off the sudden, you had no problem with the nerf? to me there is just something smelly wrong with your whole arguementation. your jumping from one kind of statement to the complete opposite.

so that make me think (i hope that's completely wrong) that ya'll gain something for trying to defend this level sync thing. but that's guessing and like i've said, i hope i am completely wrong with this! (well if i got banned/restricted for this guessing, i guess we got our answer on this guessing;)

i hope you got the point, where your wrong, and see the aproval of your own dq for this discussion.

see you in the next discussion, hopefully you don't knock your self out again, via contradicting youself this hard!

Edited January 4, 2016 by Exscarion

[Morthion]

The execs of course would never throw away a cash cow, but the developers themselves who get a set paycheck it doesn't matter. They get paid the same amount regardless of what project they are working on. Their treatment of this game feels like that of someone intentionally trying to lessen its appeal. Like they'd rather be doing something else with their talent.

 

Like looking for a new job? I mean, it's possible to bareface your way out of being blamed for sinking a game, but do you honestly imagine they're willing to risk their careers and corporate credibility by deliberately making a game tank?

 

Now, accidentally doing it is another thing entirely.

 

As a side note, to whoever was asking for evidence that people enjoy level sync as it is right now:

 

I enjoy it.

[Raansu]

You did not answer my question. There is a difference between say FFXIV having you go back and do fates in old zones for your relic and having an ENTIRE expac have ALL of it's playable content be old stuff via level sync and bolster. So please tell me a game that has done this before.

 

As for you last you are now engaging in little more than semantics BS to avoid addressing the issues

 

Rise of the Hutt Cartel digital EXPANSION

Shadow of Revan digital EXPANSION

 

And they also call KOTFE "New SWTOR Expansion - Knights of the Fallen Empire‎" even in the Earnings Calls fom the CFO, forget the Google search. Many MMOs that went f2p started giving the expansions as free to subscribers in order to increase subscription numbers during the launch windows. it may be convenient for you to cll it a DLC because being an expansion poses inconvenient to your argument but it actually makes things WORSE because they have called this their biggest expansion to date. IF their biggest expansion is just a "small DLC" that basically says this game has been doomed since 2012 and everything they have provided since has been little to nothing. is that now a claim you will make to support your argument?

 

BW can call them what they want. Still not an expansion. Heavnsward is an expansion. Heart of the Thrones is an expansion. Warlords of Dreanor is an expansion. BW idea of an expansion is to release one small zone, a daily area, and if we're lucky a raid. Witcher 3 DLC is bigger in scale than a swtor expansion.

 

That is the one thing I will always have issues with swtor. Their content releases are a joke. Level sync was a good thing for them to do, but they still suck at releasing decent content which is why I play this and FFXIV. I get my fill of good content there and really just stick around swtor for the pvp and once in awhile do a raid or clear the new ones once and go back to pvping.

[Raansu]

well to me this nerf leftt the comps still op, but made me think, ok a noob heal might need some help now and made me thought for a second: yeah now it's justifiable to do the heroics, as they where intended prior to 4.0 and this level sync in the process. but than i heared the announcement, that the nerf wasn't intended to be that strong, .... . ok so much for my standpoint at this whole mess.

more interesting is what you stated a bit later on, in the following quote:

 

 

 

and all off the sudden, you had no problem with the nerf? to me there is just something smelly wrong with your whole arguementation. your jumping from one kind of statement to the complete opposite.

so that make me think (i hope that's completely wrong) that ya'll gain something for trying to defend this level sync thing. but that's guessing and like i've said, i hope i am completely wrong with this! (well if i got banned/restricted for this guessing, i guess we got our answer on this guessing;)

i hope you got the point, where your wrong, and see the aproval of your own dq for this discussion.

see you in the next discussion, hopefully you don't knock your self out again, via contradicting youself this hard!

 

Maybe you should pay attention to who you're quoting....

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8727273&postcount=503

 

I could care less about the companions, but my personal opinion was they were fine after they got nerfed, just like I have zero issues with level sync and feel that the only people who want it turned off are lazy and probably terrible at the game.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Raansu

[LordArtemis]

Well, I might be in the minority, but I like level sync.....though i do NOT like the essential removal of vertical progression, I have played games before that had horizontal leveling (SWG) and the rewards I get for playing under the level sync system make it something I can accept.

 

I think it still needs some tweaks and adjustments however....

 

1) Aggro range is simply too high at max sync level. This seems to be the most common complaint I hear, and they could adjust aggro down considerably for the top end synced level.

 

2) Level sync should generally allow one higher level across the board.

 

3) There should be some way for folks to toggle a gimp that reduces their level by three levels at all times. This would essential be a "hard mode" setting.

 

4) Heroics need quite a bit more work to make the experience more uniform. Some heroics are brutal, while others are facerolls. The experience, IMO, should be more consistent.

 

5) Dailies removed on Illum and Makeb should be restored IMO.

 

If they made these changes, I think the system would be a great addition to the game overall. Certainly something I could learn to enjoy in time.

[Raansu]

Well, I might be in the minority, but I like level sync.....though i do NOT like the essential removal of vertical progression, I have played games before that had horizontal leveling (SWG) and the rewards I get for playing under the level sync system make it something I can accept.

 

I think it still needs some tweaks and adjustments however....

 

1) Aggro range is simply too high at max sync level. This seems to be the most common complaint I hear, and they could adjust aggro down considerably for the top end synced level.

 

2) Level sync should generally allow one higher level across the board.

 

3) There should be some way for folks to toggle a gimp that reduces their level by three levels at all times. This would essential be a "hard mode" setting.

 

4) Heroics need quite a bit more work to make the experience more uniform. Some heroics are brutal, while others are facerolls. The experience, IMO, should be more consistent.

 

5) Dailies removed on Illum and Makeb should be restored IMO.

 

If they made these changes, I think the system would be a great addition to the game overall. Certainly something I could learn to enjoy in time.

 

Vertical progression is a terrible design that leads to lazy development of "we'll just raise the level cap and reset everything." That said, level sync doesn't even remotely remove vertical progression.

 

FFXI before it broke the game had the perfect level cap set up with horizontal progression and the cap being 75 for nearly a decade.

[GalacticKegger]

Maybe you should pay attention to who you're quoting....

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8727273&postcount=503

 

I could care less about the companions, but my personal opinion was they were fine after they got nerfed, just like I have zero issues with level sync and feel that the only people who want it turned off are lazy and probably terrible at the game.

Wow ... I'm a personal target now. I don't know whether to sh**, wind my watch or report it as stalking. These folks who stoop to chastise people they have never played with let alone met are chasing more people away than any complaints about their game ever will. Maybe Bioware should just officially stand with them and add "Deal with it" ... "Get over it" ... and "Learn to like it" catch phrases on their SWTOR banner ads, press releases and web site. This way potential players can see what it's really like without ever having to subject themselves to the flaming. Edited January 4, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Raansu]

Wow ... I'm a personal target now. I don't know whether to sh**, wind my watch or report it as stalking. These folks who stoop to chastise people they have never played with let alone met are chasing more people away than any complaints about their game ever will. Maybe Bioware should just officially stand with them and add "Deal with it" ... "Get over it" ... and "Learn to like it" catch phrases on their SWTOR banner ads, press releases and web site. This way potential players can see what it's really like without ever having to subject themselves to the flaming.

 

I'm just stating a fact. Its not going anywhere, so ya the response would be deal with it or play another game. It is what it is at this point and going round and round arguing is not going to change anything. Well you call it arguing. I don't argue because I'm never wrong

[GalacticKegger]

I'm just stating a fact.

As am I.

Well you call it arguing.

I never called it anything. You made that up.

I don't argue because I'm never wrong

Myth busted. Edited January 4, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Raansu]

As am I.

 

Complaining without ever once giving a logical response to why it should be optional is not stating a fact, sorry.