Level Sync needs an Off Button! : ).

[-Marauder-]

There was absolutely no logic to it at all, and even in one of his examples he fails to realize that fallout 4 has level scaling....All enemies scale to your characters level.

 

His post was literally complete nonsense.

 

You still progress, you still gain new abilities. The level sync just makes it so you can't one shot content crucial to the new expansion, boo hoo.

Funny thing is, I wasn't even talking to you given that other people are already countering your every post very efficiently and throughly and you're basically just mudslinging while trumping your "victory in this discussion" nobody but you buys.

 

Your refusal to adress most of my post doesn't bother me, but the dishonesty shown here needs addressing. You've apparently NOT played Fallout 4, yet you're trying to tell people how it works. There's no "Level scaling" even in the sense you're proclaiming it to exist.

 

If I go to most parts of the map right now, I will find the exact same enemies I've found there previously. A few have an additional piece of gear or two but overall most of them are capped to the armor they had. Most of the stronger enemies especially the static ones were around all along and depend more upon the part of the game map you're in than on your level.

 

Yes there's some that don't spawn right away and there's rare variants that MIGHT spawn at higher levels, a whole lot of these strong NPCs however were lurking at their exact positions all along such as Mirelurk queens etc, you can see plenty of low level players overreaching their boundaries while exploring running into high level and dangerous mobs they can't deal with.

 

You're proclaiming mobs on large scale with the player, they don't. Some grow slightly stronger in terms of better gear but most are still as weak as they were all along (the VATS upgrade clearly shows their level aswell as resistants) and even those who do improve do only slightly so and are often times capped.

 

So one big question, Y u lyin?

[KLGChaos]

Maybe it's because I got used to it in GW2 and FFXIV, but level sync doesn't really bother me. I still destroy any normal enemies with ease because I have all my abilities available to me (unlike FFXIV's auto-sync in dungeons).

[Raansu]

Funny thing is, I wasn't even talking to you given that other people are already countering your every post very efficiently and throughly and you're basically just mudslinging while trumping your "victory in this discussion" nobody but you buys.

 

Not a single person in this thread has countered me in any argument. Its been nonessential statements that basically just lead to "Different is scary so I don't like it." Or the extremely flawed RP logic which has no business being part of game design discussions. Making level sync optional would completely break the new system. Don't like it? Go play something else.

 

Your refusal to adress most of my post doesn't bother me, but the dishonesty shown here needs addressing. You've apparently NOT played Fallout 4, yet you're trying to tell people how it works. There's no "Level scaling" even in the sense you're proclaiming it to exist.

 

FO4 scaling is called rubberbanding where the enemies have a set range level scaled to the character

3-6

4-9

12-15

etc... based on your character level when entering said area.

 

There's even mods to turn it off. "This mod removes Level Scaling, so enemies will appear without any consideration of your level."

 

Sorry, I guess you haven't played FO4.

 

A shame you're disregarding it. It's a solid post, a fantastic one in fact, with great points to be made. But I don't think you'll agree, going by your posts, you're pre-emptively determined to oppose any suggestion of toggling level synch. I will say though, don't just assume it's here to stay in it's current state, until BW comes out straight up says "we will not alter level synch in any fashion" there is always a chance they could change it up. Will they get rid of it? Probably not. But I don't think it will stay in it's current incarnation forever.

 

There was nothing solid with his post and he didn't make any good points and he completely disregards the current expansions game design. A toggle for level sync WILL NOT work with the current game. Giving players the same rewards if they could turn level sync off would completely break the system set in place right now.

 

They put time into creating the system. Its not changing. We're talking about the same dev team that's ignored pvpers for years and still lacks matchmaking for pvp and still mixes pugs with premades and have never once in 4 years even addressed it. So do you really think they are going to do anything with level sync? The answer is no. Level sync is fine, its not changing. Don't like it? Go play something else. This is how MMO's work. They change over time, some things people like, some don't. Players come and go, that's just how MMO's are. BW has their vision for the game and this is what it is.

[GalacticKegger]

I see nothing in here except entitlement and whine.

Unfavorable perspectives tends to elicit that style response. Edited December 30, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[KLGChaos]

I just have to say on the debate about FO4, there IS level scaling in that game. I put 120 hours into it myself so far and it's easy to tell. For example, depending on your level, things like ghouls change. You go from regular ferals at low levels in an area to bloated glowing ones at high levels in the same area. Not to say they're all matched exactly to your level and there are scripted areas where enemies are clearly higher than you, but for the most part, enemies scale to around your level.

[Mubrak]

well, that's not real logical to me. why should a level 18 mob/boss whatever be a thread to a lv 65 guy? that is in no way logical to me. a 5 year old won't kill a 30 year old person, without any serious (like a weapon or some like that) handles.

 

That's the wrong comparsion. Levels are experience, not age. A serviceman on leave isn't immune to a hoodlum's .32.

Field experience and full combat gear may give an advantage but a gun-toting wannabe gangster will still be a threat.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Mubrak

[Transcendent]

that are the important stats to synch down, so it takes unnecessarly more time to faceroll them(yeah i am still facerolling them)! here is my suggestion to this, make the difficulty level of the h4 that's waiting on section x for ya(in ger it's called aurora geschütz, don't know the english name) the standart storyline difficulty once again, so we wouldn't have to debate the sense of the level synch! there wouldn't be any doubt, that they wanted to make old stuff fun again!

 

Aurora Cannon

[Transcendent]

No, and here's the reason why.

The rewards should be the same for level-sync versus non-LS; there should be no difference in reward, enemy health, etc. So let me draw THE line in the sand between those who have legitimate concerns about level sync..............and those who are using it as a blunt instrument to beat other players with better equipment, stats or more time than they have.

 

There are 3 schools of thought with level sync:

 

1. I want to play with my friends and family and my toons or their toons are of such different levels, it should be equalized so we can play together. May include PVP/bolster/etc.

 

2. I want level-sync to gimp level 60-65's so at level 20 if me and my friend are out questing, they can't steal the WB or beat me and my friend up because we're ridiculously underleveled and undergeared to go against high-end toons. I might also be a casual player who plays the game 20 minutes a week, but when I login I still want to feel special and be able to fight Level 65's like we're on the same level. When all other smokescreens fail, their final desperation card is that BW needs to force everyone onto LS in order to add new content; but the sad truth is they don't know what's coming from Bioware any more than any other player. This is the argument they make when all of their other points have been disproven and it's a hail mary to the developers to come and save what they want.

 

3. I don't care what you do, just leave my elder toons alone. I leveled, I earned high-end gear and I shouldn't have to deal with trash mobs. If I want to one-shot trash, I should be able to, a right earned through leveling and gearing.

 

So here's the deal, the rewards given for LS versus non-LS DO NOT MATTER. Those who want to make them matter are in group 2. They don't want highest end toons sweeping by trash, blowing through missions and getting the same rewards because going to Belsavis at L60 is comparatively easier than a Level 30 doing the same activity. Their argument is less effort, less reward, BUT, they neglect to mention that Level 60 put in their time and effort to get that far and earn their gear.

 

Group 1 has a point, Group 3 has a point and BOTH can exist together in the world... Level sync with a toggle would let high end toons "down-level" to play with friends and family, and leaving it off would leave Group 3 alone (which is all they want).

 

Group 2, and this is the kicker to all the long debates and thousands of forum threads, are the ONLY group with an axe to grind. They will never be happy with Level 65's running around and clearing the trash because they either can't, won't or don't want to do the same. And if you're not part of Group 2, then to anyone who is, your arguments against LS are just wrong. If you're careless enough to go after a Sith Lord or Jedi Master who has 30+ levels on you and get creamed, that's your own fault (see my sig for thoughts on that). If they steal a world boss, it'll be back in a few hours, just as if they killed it with a group.

 

Here's where things get fuzzy. Group 1 is taken care of, I described above they get what they want with a toggle feature on LS too; BUT, Group 2 knows this and the ONLY way they "win" is if Group 3 isn't allowed to exist. How dare someone be able to go through content faster, and have superior armor/weapons. Their 20 minutes spent in the game each week should be just as good as an elite raiders' 20 hours spent in the game each week. THAT, at its core is what level sync forces. Further, Group 2 uses Group 1 as a shield ("you have to level sync because otherwise group 1 couldn't play with their friends and family and that would be unfair blah blah blah...."). But as demonstrated here, Groups 1 and 3 can co-exist in peace without ever running into one another.

 

It's Group 2 that's the problem, they're the only ones with an agenda, the only ones who say the other groups can't have what they want, because in Group 2's new world order, the only way THEIR perception of the world functions, is if everyone else doesn't get theirs. Group 2 is "you do what we do, there is no alternative", groups 1 and 3 don't mind each other and are fine playing together.

 

Who cares if Group 3 gets Alliance Crates more easily with LS turned off compared to those who CHOOSE to turn it on? It's a choice to toggle it on if the toggle is added; if you want that "added challenge" (a group 2 argument btw), then you have to fight harder for your crates than others, you chose to do so. Otherwise, leave it off and play with Group 3; in either event, the choice is entirely up to the player.

 

Alliance crates don't affect group 1 or 2. There's no reason to take them away unless you're trying to punish Group 3 from taking the fast road. THAT is an agenda, and no group, has any right to tell the others how to play. Ironically, groups 1 and 3 don't set conditions on how a Level Sync system could be properly implemented, they don't care as long as they can play with their friends and family, and it doesn't mess with their toons stats or efficacy respectively. Only Group 2 cares about how the others play, and sets conditions on (well then you can't attack a world boss, well then you can't have alliance crates, well then you need to get fewer credits).

 

Why do any of those things matter? World bosses respawn and higher end toons never went after them to begin with, an argument that has been debunked many times. How many credits group 3 has in their pocket for finishing the same exact content as group 2 (because group 2 left their level sync on you see) shouldn't change, group 2 wanted harder content, got harder content and is upset that someone else got the same reward (not for less effort, because remember higher level toons put their time and energy into leveling and gearing instead of whining for system changes).

 

So, tell me again why Group 3 can't be left perfectly alone and has to be forced to play a completely different game because Group 2 wants to tell everyone else how they should be playing, and Group 1 really doesn't give a damn.

 

tl;dr: There's 3 groups of players arguing about level sync, family/friends, I want everything my way, I don't care so long as you leave me out of it. The only group who demands removing rewards is "I want everything my way", the other two just want to be left alone to play their game. There's no reason to mess with 2 other groups for the sake of 1 and a toggle for Level Sync, without touching any rewards or other factors of the game pleases all groups who AREN'T trying to push an agenda. Only those with an agenda care about how other players play their game. This is the freedom a toggle offers

.

 

You only read the first paragraph didn't you? If not, I'm not sure where the basis of that response came from

[-Marauder-]

Not a single person in this thread has countered me in any argument. Its been nonessential statements that basically just lead to "Different is scary so I don't like it." Or the extremely flawed RP logic which has no business being part of game design discussions. Making level sync optional would completely break the new system. Don't like it? Go play something else.

We can discuss your delusions all day, aside from you nobody believes them and I for one am not willing to entertain them beyond this point. There's enough others who bother, altough I doubt they do it for your sake.

 

FO4 scaling is called rubberbanding where the enemies have a set range level scaled to the character

3-6

4-9

12-15

etc... based on your character level when entering said area.

 

Sorry, I guess you haven't played FO4.

Oh I did and I even have the perception Perk to go along with it, showing both level and resistance of mobs, it doesn't work like that, never did. Rubberbanding was something they egriously employed in Oblivion leading to situations where every measly bandit would wear ebon armor.

They since massively eased off on it, in Fallout 4 to an even larger extent than they did in Skyrim. There's a lot more factors playing into what kind of mobs you're facing now than just your level AND a lot of mobs are hard capped in how far they level along with you, leading to you eventually leaving them in the dust. (In some cases quite quickly).

 

The Fallout 4 system doesn't work like you describe it, you have to go far further back in Bethesdas history to find such a system AND they phased it out in favour of a different system over several iterations only retaining the bare bones to allow people to stay slightly longer in certain areas before they become redundant. The same as other games did for that matter, if they not outright threw level scaling and mobs leveling with you out in its entirety and all of them did it for a reason.

 

There was nothing solid with his post and he didn't make any good points and he completely disregards the current expansions game design. A toggle for level sync WILL NOT work with the current game. Giving players the same rewards if they could turn level sync off would completely break the system set in place right now.

What system? Grind 438203 weeklys for Alliance reputation so we can pretend there's content, or what are you talking about? That has such a mind bogglingly easy solution. People with scaling turned off don't get their reward scaled i.e if they go to Korriban to do the dailys they get the ammount of credits a level 10 would've gotten, no chest etc.

 

They put time into creating the system. Its not changing. We're talking about the same dev team that's ignored pvpers for years and still lacks matchmaking for pvp and still mixes pugs with premades and have never once in 4 years even addressed it. So do you really think they are going to do anything with level sync? The answer is no. Level sync is fine, its not changing. Don't like it? Go play something else. This is how MMO's work. They change over time, some things people like, some don't. Players come and go, that's just how MMO's are. BW has their vision for the game and this is what it is.

I guess it's where all the time went they DIDN'T invest into Kotfe, not that it took them particularly long to do this. Them not changing it because they're unwilling to invest any kind of effort into the game is about the only credible argument you have but that's really not what we're talking about.

 

The rest is just useless drivel not worth responding to.

[Halinalle]

What system? Grind 438203 weeklys for Alliance reputation so we can pretend there's content, or what are you talking about? That has such a mind bogglingly easy solution. People with scaling turned off don't get their reward scaled i.e if they go to Korriban to do the dailys they get the ammount of credits a level 10 would've gotten, no chest etc.

 

Only if you don't get locked box either.

Also you wouldn't be able to kill WBs or even get them to spawn.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Halinalle

[DarthSpuds]

Not a single person in this thread has countered me in any argument.

 

People this detached from reality usually need professional / medical / or chemical intervention.

 

 

All The Best

[Halinalle]

People this detached from reality usually need professional / medical / or chemical intervention.

 

Why it's so important to solo kill WBs?

If you mean Qyzen's quest that's actually really short one compared to Pierce's pvp requirement. It takes maybe 40 minutes to kill 20 worthy targets on Hoth.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Halinalle

[DarthSpuds]

Why it's so important to solo kill WBs?

 

I never said it was.

 

I was just pointing out that if Raansu actually believes none of his arguments have been refuted he is dangerously detached from reality.

 

I really don't care about soloing world bosses - it's a world boss, it shouldn't ever be soloable IMO.

 

 

All The Best

[branmakmuffin]

We can discuss your delusions all day, aside from you nobody believes them and I for one am not willing to entertain them beyond this point. There's enough others who bother, altough I doubt they do it for your sake.

There is, in fact, no cogent argument in favor of making levely sync optional other than "I don't like level sync." Which is fair enough as far as it goes, but not very compelling.

[GalacticKegger]

I actually agree, I would take zero issue with Heroic 2+ missions not providing Alliance Crates and having reduced credits rewarded if level sync was turned off while doing them. In exchange for them being Daily and not Weekly.

 

I would prefer however to see the Heroic 2+ missions to be the "halfway house" scenario, where the area automatically turns on level sync. We already have these areas, such as on Hoth near one of the world bosses, or in Section X. So tagging Heroic 2+ areas with Level Sync is a nice alternative to what we currently have, it still means that you can go about your business elsewhere without Level Sync turned on.

 

Equally said, having a toggle in place, so you can turn Level Sync on / off while levelling anywhere aside from a Heroic 2+ would still allow players to benefit from "streamlined levelling", just have it set to automatically be "on" when creating a new character. That way, the decision is with the player if they want to turn it off and not do the "streamlined levelling", and can enjoy the planetary story arcs as well, without increased experience gains.

 

It also means any world boss area can be set to Heroic, where level sync is automatically turned on.

 

Just my two cents, it would certainly be a better option than what I've seen implemented in my own opinion. Armchair developer and all that ()

/signed. Dress-up doll companions notwithstanding ... throw in FPs and HMs as well to complete the raw early game progression experience and I, my wife, & our friends who followed us would resubscribe in a microsecond. Edited December 30, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[Quraswren]

Heroics now give xp and item rewards at level of your toon. If they didn't level sync you it would be idiotic with people just mowing through the low level planets within minutes and getting xp based on their level. Why don't you think for a second instead of crying over how lazy you are. If they made level sync optional then I guarantee they would take the rewards away from you making the content yet again meaningless because there's no reason to do them once you out leveled them like pre 4.0.

It's 4 year old content. Who gives a crap if its easy? BW. Like their doing anything stellar with 4 year old content as a main feature.

 

Lazy is BW and how this was used and designed. You want to start pointing the finger at the real lazy ones. IF they made level sync optional and no one used it. That should tell you something right there. That it's a POS feature few if any wanted. If they removed the reward for it, so be it. I'd rather turn it off, go about my way and skip the alliance all together anyway. It's was a waste of time. If I wanted to do the heroics, I'd rather do it the way I did for 4 years, not down leveled so that all it does is make me take a few mins longer. Thats some poor design.

 

Oh no, you have to press more than one button now, oh the horror.

Oh no, now I have to press 2. You got a better argument that that POS statement?

 

The only thing that sucked was you lost your abilities when level synced and that is it. And there was arguments on both sides to be for and against removing abilities. If everyone kept their abilities the dungeons would be cleared way too quickly and new players wouldn't learn their class as well as they would running through it normally. Either way, the level sync in FFXIV is a good thing. If it wasn't for level sync I'd never bother with the duty finder and just queue for level appropriate dungeons which would in turn make the queue times longer, which would impact new players more because some of the dungeons are required to continue the main story of the game. Level sync is 100% a good thing.

 

Level sync, AKA down leveling has sucked since it was first used. Used so game companies can do less and rely on ****** old content. Down leveling why I disllike FF14 and thats not a good thing. It's a negative and not a good thing. SWTOR falls into that same boat. It's just not a good thing for a game thats never needed it, unless of course the game designers just wanted to be lazy.

 

Lazy. Yet again, heaven forbid you have to press more than one button.

Again, a worthless POS argument that holds no water given how easy they still are. 1 button or 2, it's 4 year old easy content. God forbid BW get off their rear and stop being lazy.

 

Why? What purpose would it serve to make it optional? If they made it optional they would have to turn off the rewards for those who turn off level sync and then at that point you wouldn't do the content anyways. There is ZERO negatives to this system. You're just being lazy.

WHY? Because the game didn't need it. The game was better without it. It gives games options. Play the way you enjoyed for 4 years and get the old rewards or play this new down leveled way for something newer. Options.

There is nothing but negatives for this system.

 

It makes you replay 4 year old content.

It allows BW to be extremely lazy in getting new content to gamers.

It didn't do anything but add time to an already tedious task and didn't make it any harder.

 

What you should have said is there are no positives to down leveling except for BW. For the gamers, it's a POS waste of gamer time when they do play, while the grind out 4 year old content in a new massive grind that doesn't actually do anything but give some buffs you don't even need.

 

Except it isn't. Level sync was an improvement to this game.

 

You support a feature that brings nothing to sWTOr but tediousness and mediocrity where it doesn't need it.

Down leveling. Still one of the worst things to come to SWTOR after 4 years. A new feature that didn't actually do much but increase your aggro radius, add some extra time while doing 4 year old content we had at launch and didn't make it any more challenging.

 

Down level. The ultimate joke on the SWTOR universe that does nothing for the gamer but make sure launch content takes longer to do 4 years later.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Quraswren

[branmakmuffin]

/signed. Dress-up doll companions notwithstanding ... throw in FPs and HMs as well to complete the raw early game progression experience and I, my wife, & our friends who followed us would resubscribe in a microsecond.

You're subscribed now.

[GalacticKegger]

You're subscribed now.

You are most correct. I have 39 days left. My wife has 53 days left, and my friends all have theirs end in January sometime. Edited December 31, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[branmakmuffin]

You are most correct. I have 39 days left. My wife has 53 days left, and my friends all have theirs end in January sometime.

Wow, so pretty much out the door.

 

[GalacticKegger]

Wow, so pretty much out the door.

 

Yep, pretty much. Not that anything here requires your approval, but ... is that okay with you? Edited December 31, 2015 by GalacticKegger

[xXGalactusXx]

I will drop my sub and my will drop her sub too. I hate Sync nerf you all that love it keep it. I'll go for the Off button.

 

Nuff Said

[LordArtemis]

A cogent argument is that it is the industry standard and has been the standard for this game for almost 4 years.

 

A cogent argument against making it optional could be that, if it isnt possible to adjust rewards it would allow folks to gain substantial rewards with no effort....and I mean NO effort, because it takes no effort to clear content when mobs are grey.

 

So, yes, it could be allowed because this change is a rather drastic one this far into the game's age, and is NOT the industry standard, therefore it may be something that folks will not be willing to accept in the long run.

 

It could also be denied, as far as an optional shut off button, if rewards do not have the capability of being adjusted.

 

If I were to give my personal opinion, I think it is likely that if they could have made it optional, considering my first point (game age, outside of industry norm, drastic change) they would have done so. I would speculate that the system may not have the capability of being optional, because there is no way to adjust rewards.

 

That is purely speculation however. I think it would be fine if we have an optional button, and fine if we didn't. I speculate that most folks will likely not care either way.

 

They would have cared with 4.0.2 certainly. But with the adjustment in 4.0.2a, I think the pain is mostly gone and it is likely casuals are once again tearing up the worlds as before.

 

Sure, not exactly like before, but they are actually getting rewards now...so theres that.

Edited December 31, 2015 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

You're literally proving my point. They don't want people out leveling the content then breezing through it for the easy crystals/boxes that are for gearing and for the alliance stuff. Obviously when they removed planet comms and merged everything to basic comms they saw the problem they made that people were just breezing through the low level content.

 

Level sync is the answer to that problem, end of story. They are not going to make it optional because if they did they would have to remove the rewards, which again, defeats the entire purpose of making the content meaningful with its rewards and not just something you can breeze through and one shot everything in your path.

 

Has nothing to do with hardcore or casual. This is something every MMO faces and newer MMO's are going this route to prevent players from over leveling content then just clearing it easily. Both FFXIV and GW2 do this, WoW is trying to implement something close to it, Rift does it.....All the major MMO's are doing this and most are in favor of it.

 

Just like I have to deal with all the people crying about group content in a multiplayer game, ya'll are gonna have to deal with the fact that MMO's are making you put effort into your game again. Deal with it or move on to another genre.

 

 

 

News flash, MMO's change. SWTOR is drastically different now than it was at launch. And the "industry" as I said above is actually moving towards this direction of level sync because of how finicky the MMO community is and killing off every mmo because it isn't WoW, so they have to find ways to supplement the low level content that is lacking new players.

 

Toggle is completely unnecessary and would completely defeat the purpose of BW's new direction they are going with the game. Simple as that. Accept it or get left behind.

 

BTW Raansu, I would like to point out that you do not speak for Bioware, and this post is almost ENTIRELY speculation at best.

 

You likely have the very same idea about Bioware's motivations as everyone else does, which is next to no idea. Therefore your entire argument against in this post lacks even a shred of credibility.

 

Your guessing. And if your guess is correct, you have a leg to stand on, otherwise it is nothing more than hyperbole.

Edited December 31, 2015 by LordArtemis

[GalacticKegger]

Hopefully the polarization this topic has created will merit a decision maker's attention. Unfortunately, hope is often little more than a four letter word.

[Ghisallo]

If I were to give my personal opinion, I think it is likely that if they could have made it optional, considering my first point (game age, outside of industry norm, drastic change) they would have done so. I would speculate that the system may not have the capability of being optional, because there is no way to adjust rewards.

 

.

 

I would disagree on this point because it ignores what I believe the entire the entire point of level sync is. First and foremost its there so the new and returning players who used either a free level 60 or fast track leveled toon hits end game and says "omg look at all those Heroic Missions." Second I allowed them to have Lvl 65 quests that made sense story wise (freeing existing worlds) by recycling the x4 heroics, that for some time players rarely used to level, as level 65 x2 Heroics. Translation cheap development.

 

To allow it to be turned off would basically defeat the purposes of the system.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Ghisallo