Crafting Changes in Fallen Empire

[IslanderRebel]

What about Dark Projects?

I see some of the materials are going asta la bye bye, so how will we make Dark projects to redeem for Encryption Frameworks?

Did anybody see a post on it on the other 50 plus pages?

Thanks for the help.

Edited October 16, 2015 by IslanderRebel

[Papazmurf]

As a crafter, these changes really only make me upset because of all the time I put in to get all the various schematics for all the professions.

 

However I believe these changes are for the better. More streamlined and getting rid of resuable stuff to make lower tier stims and grenades viable on the GTN is very welcome. Remember folks, those grenades can be used in PVP, yet hardly anyone does.

[light_senshi]

The more of these "improvements" that I see the more my response is "DO NOT WANT!". They aren't improvements, they're changing the game into something completely different. It is, in effect, destroying most of the time/effort/energy that they paying (and non-paying) customer has put into the game.

 

As such, I expect to never enter into the new content.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

And what do you base your opinion on? I base mine on years of experience as a software engineer and years of experience with BW/swtor. See my reply to Khevar.

 

Oh here we go, the "I'm a software dev I understand perfectly want it would require of Bioware to do in this game" argument. *sigh*

 

What are you even talking about adjusting the mats? It's effectively already been done.

We are losing the schems and there will be schems to learn in their place thus the new schems which that they could "auto give us" but won't already have or have not got new mats associated with them.

 

All people are saying here is basically that If you are replacing Schem X with Schem Y then why not run an analysis on players with versions of Schem X in purple and give them Schem Y in purple. What materials Schem Y uses is irrelevant as it already exists and we can already get it but we have to RE it again to get where we effectively were.

 

A script to run this through the database could have been developed and extensively tested months ago when they were aware of their changes so it would be readily be available to run come patch time. For whatever reason they decided it wasn't worth the effort to do unless you're implying a multi million dollar software house aren't actually capable of it heh.

 

Now before you prattle on about more of your "experience" perhaps actually try make a solid argument with logic because the "I'm a dev and this would be hard" argument is just tired and old.

[PadsterPwns]

I haven't really read through much of the thread (58 pages? No thanks) so sorry if this has been answered but why are they changing crafting this much? I get some schematics being removed because of the main stat merge but apart from that it doesn't seem like there is any point to these changes. Why move the ability to craft armorings to synthweaving and armormech? Why move the ability to craft enhancements to cybertech? Why complicate the crafting system when they said they were going to simplify the crafting system, despite the fact that the crafting system was simple in the first place? Why tie crafting mats to conquest and pvp? It just all seems so unnecessary.

[eartharioch]

Oh here we go, the "I'm a software dev I understand perfectly want it would require of Bioware to do in this game" argument. *sigh*

LOL, that's not what I said. You said you didn't think it would be that much work, and I asked *you* how *you* came to that conclusion. You are the one making a statement about what it would require.

 

A script to run this through the database could have been developed and extensively tested months ago when they were aware of their changes so it would be readily be available to run come patch time. For whatever reason they decided it wasn't worth the effort to do unless you're implying a multi million dollar software house aren't actually capable of it heh.

"Developed and extensively tested" is what I mean by being hard, and yes, an effort v. benefit (to them) of doing the work is the sort of analysis I'd expect them to do. And EA may be a multimillion dollar software house, but $$ doesn't guarantee capability. My estimation of BW's capability is based on (a) EA rushing swtor's launch and (b) EA rushing SoR's launch. SoR was a craptacular bugfest, and 3.x has basically been "butterfingers on keyboard on parade", and while I'd be glad for KotFE to break that pattern, I'm not going to assume capability when all evidence points to the reverse.

 

Now before you prattle on about more of your "experience" perhaps actually try make a solid argument with logic because the "I'm a dev and this would be hard" argument is just tired and old.

 

You are the one prattling about how it shouldn't have been hard. I'm just saying that some things are harder than they look. And given BW's track record, they're a lot harder for some people than others. And i'm not talking about just the actual programmers, it's the company as a whole -- I don't doubt that the devs knew about many of the 3.x bugs, I believe that EA just chose not to change the ship date or spend more of its multimillion dollars to fix them because they thought shipping with bugs was better for that quarter's report than not doing so.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

LOL, that's not what I said. You said you didn't think it would be that much work, and I asked *you* how *you* came to that conclusion. You are the one making a statement about what it would require.

 

Stating my thoughts yes and that's simply based around the amount of work they had already put into having a "swap" system in place for things like materials, augments, comms etc. So if you had schematic X and I had schematic Y and both are being replaced by schematic Z then we both get the equivalent Z we had X and Y of.

 

Also I said it sounds too much like hard work initially, you went on to state:

 

"Actually, it would be a lot of extra work to do it right. And based on 3.x, EA/BW will ship whatever compiles on 10/19 regardless of whether or not it works."

 

So maybe justify your own point before asking for others to do the same?

 

 

"Developed and extensively tested" is what I mean by being hard, and yes, an effort v. benefit (to them) of doing the work is the sort of analysis I'd expect them to do. And EA may be a multimillion dollar software house, but $$ doesn't guarantee capability. My estimation of BW's capability is based on (a) EA rushing swtor's launch and (b) EA rushing SoR's launch. SoR was a craptacular bugfest, and 3.x has basically been "butterfingers on keyboard on parade", and while I'd be glad for KotFE to break that pattern, I'm not going to assume capability when all evidence points to the reverse.

 

Bah you could apply that logic to everything they do then.

If we took your logic in to play we might as well say they shouldn't have changed anything in the game because it's too much work and it will lead to bugs?

Point is Khevar was talking past tense to which I was agreeing.

 

Wouldn't it have been good if had they done the same thing for schematics?

 

So being that the framework for the type of work they were doing would already be in place ( in terms of testing etc. as you say for example ) then it's not that much of a stretch for us to have wished they applied the same logic and thought to schematics.

 

We're not talking about them doing it now, it's too late. My point is it wouldn't have been that much extra work in the scheme of things to have come up with a replacement system at the same time they were replacing everything else.

 

 

You are the one prattling about how it shouldn't have been hard. I'm just saying that some things are harder than they look. And given BW's track record, they're a lot harder for some people than others. And i'm not talking about just the actual programmers, it's the company as a whole -- I don't doubt that the devs knew about many of the 3.x bugs, I believe that EA just chose not to change the ship date or spend more of its multimillion dollars to fix them because they thought shipping with bugs was better for that quarter's report than not doing so.

 

Right so basically you've got nothing really to back up your opinion on that amount of extra work it would take at all except a conspiracy theory on how they are purposely releasing bugged content - anything to back that up?

 

I'm still wondering what you meant by "Schematics and items are different things, schematics would have to have the mats adjusted as well. " in regards to the mats.

 

Funnily enough you've almost defended my initial statement for me - "sounds too much like hard work" ... meaning the process of giving us our equivalent schematics back would have been too much extra work so they might as well have not bothered ( even though I'm of the opinion it wouldn't be that much EXTRA work being that they would ideally be in there testing the system in the first place due to all the changes ).

[Max_Killjoy]

After four years of the crafting skills doing the same things, and players picking them and leveling them and grinding them and REing in them base don what they do...

 

...this sudden change really just feels like Bioware jerking the players around, and trying to find one more thing they can try to get players to waste time on between KotFE chapters.

[Reno_Tarshil]

After four years of the crafting skills doing the same things, and players picking them and leveling them and grinding them and REing in them base don what they do...

 

...this sudden change really just feels like Bioware jerking the players around, and trying to find one more thing they can try to get players to waste time on between KotFE chapters.

 

They are trying to change it up to be more streamlined to prevent crafting from being stale.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

They are trying to change it up to be more streamlined to prevent crafting from being stale.

 

What is streamlined about adding an extra crafting step and more materials to keep track of?

[Derfburger]

After reading the 1st 10 pages or so I am so glad all my 8 characters have only gathering skills (all of them have slicing to 500 in addition to 2 other). I will just carry on and let the crafters craft I will but their stuffs from the GTN as always (and sell my mats of course).

 

Though I will say this based on what I read it looks like BW gave the shaft to crafters. I have been pretty much in support of KotFE changes so far, but the crafting changes seem way off base.

[Reno_Tarshil]

What is streamlined about adding an extra crafting step and more materials to keep track of?

 

They are removing certain materials and removing 2 tiers of augment kits. They are increasing item value of the items you craft. (You craft blue instead of green now) They are moving schematics to archives that you won't need but if you have it you can keep it to reduce clutter.

[eartharioch]

So maybe justify your own point before asking for others to do the same?

I did, in the reply to Khevar to which I referred you.

 

Bah you could apply that logic to everything they do then.

If we took your logic in to play we might as well say they shouldn't have changed anything in the game because it's too much work and it will lead to bugs?

I have said as much before.

 

Right so basically you've got nothing really to back up your opinion on that amount of extra work it would take at all except a conspiracy theory on how they are purposely releasing bugged content - anything to back that up?

3.x

 

Funnily enough you've almost defended my initial statement for me - "sounds too much like hard work" ... meaning the process of giving us our equivalent schematics back would have been too much extra work so they might as well have not bothered ( even though I'm of the opinion it wouldn't be that much EXTRA work being that they would ideally be in there testing the system in the first place due to all the changes ).

 

I understand, my question was what is the basis of your opinion that it wouldn't be that much extra work? A question you've spent a lot of time not answering.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

They are removing certain materials and removing 2 tiers of augment kits. They are increasing item value of the items you craft. (You craft blue instead of green now) They are moving schematics to archives that you won't need but if you have it you can keep it to reduce clutter.

 

That doesn't actually answer the question I asked at all.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I did, in the reply to Khevar to which I referred you.

 

To which i then question you around your material comment which you've ignored clarifying twice now for some strange reason.

 

3.x

 

Which has what to do with the extra work that may or may not be required for us to retain our schems exactly?

 

Can you even back up the conspiracy theory that they knew about many of the bugs going into 3.0 and just left them there?

 

 

I understand, my question was what is the basis of your opinion that it wouldn't be that much extra work? A question you've spent a lot of time not answering.

 

Oh?

 

Stating my thoughts yes and that's simply based around the amount of work they had already put into having a "swap" system in place for things like materials, augments, comms etc. So if you had schematic X and I had schematic Y and both are being replaced by schematic Z then we both get the equivalent Z we had X and Y of.

 

So being that the framework for the type of work they were doing would already be in place ( in terms of testing etc. as you say for example ) then it's not that much of a stretch for us to have wished they applied the same logic and thought to schematics.

 

We're not talking about them doing it now, it's too late. My point is it wouldn't have been that much extra work in the scheme of things to have come up with a replacement system at the same time they were replacing everything else.

 

even though I'm of the opinion it wouldn't be that much EXTRA work being that they would ideally be in there testing the system in the first place due to all the changes

 

I think all that more than sums up where the reasoning for my opinion comes from. Your comes from ... it would be too much work to test changes even though they have to do that with all the changes anyway? Right ...

[eartharioch]

To which i then question you around your material comment which you've ignored clarifying twice now for some strange reason.

What question? I stand by my statements as stated.

 

Which has what to do with the extra work that may or may not be required for us to retain our schems exactly?

The fact that they messed up willpower schematics (Implants/Earpieces) in 3.x and weren't able to correct them in the ten months since SoR's release tells me that fixing schematics is hard for them. The fact that they obviously use some sort of automation over which they have no control (Cunning Tank gear still included in 3.x) tells me that they can't easily automate mat changes.

 

Can you even back up the conspiracy theory that they knew about many of the bugs going into 3.0 and just left them there?

What conspiracy theory? There were plain-as-day bugs in 3.x that still haven't been resolved and that (as I just illustrated above) show that they don't have the kind of automation tools to make what you want easy.

 

I think all that more than sums up where the reasoning for my opinion comes from. Your comes from ... it would be too much work to test changes even though they have to do that with all the changes anyway? Right ...

 

Yes, it does. It comes from nowhere near anything resembling knowledge of how software development works. It is just your outsider's view of what you think *should* be easy.

 

I didn't say it would be *too much* work, I said it would be *more* work, work which BW has already demonstrated isn't something they are willing to do.

[ImpNavScout]

(may be a stupid question but I have to ask) - I keep my mats in my legacy bank so I can share them with all my toons. When they are converted on Tuesday, I'm presuming the new versions will be in my legacy bank?

[Reno_Tarshil]

That doesn't actually answer the question I asked at all.

 

It actually does since you said more materials when I said they were taking materials away. And what is this extra step you're going on about? If anything they are removing a step from REing by getting rid of green schematics and going straight to blue.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Reno_Tarshil

[Banetek]

Someone tell me I am wrong here...

 

when 4.0 hits I can "purchase" a free level 60 toon, have max crafting instantly, do some conquest dailies, and craft myself some BiS armor (minus set bonuses) without ever doing anything remotely challenging?

 

Welcome to the future of WELFARE gaming... That's right, people so unmotivated by a challenge that they cry until its made easy for them..

[shippper]

totally crap changes. Changing armoring and enhancment crafting just *********** awful. you want re-leveling other profs?

i chose one prof an d now what? i need level other prof? thanx a lot stupid bioware.

level sync is crap too. You kill mmo in you game.

ok. Its your game but it my money. so good buy. cancel subs. I hope you lost much subs and that make you think about your actions.

you already ruined ME seried with stupid ME3 endings and now you will ruined swtor. Ok, its your choice.

you just do second class singleplayer game.

with no regard ex sub.

[Mvptony]

totally crap changes. Changing armoring and enhancment crafting just *********** awful. you want re-leveling other profs?

i chose one prof an d now what? i need level other prof? thanx a lot stupid bioware.

level sync is crap too. You kill mmo in you game.

ok. Its your game but it my money. so good buy. cancel subs. I hope you lost much subs and that make you think about your actions.

you already ruined ME seried with stupid ME3 endings and now you will ruined swtor. Ok, its your choice.

you just do second class singleplayer game.

with no regard ex sub.

 

Well this is where i'm happy i got all skills and professions, i just hope doing weekly conquest wont take to long, i got to have all my alts on 65, since they removed the repeatable crafting, then im curious to know what the new missions is, it's only 20k a week, but 8 chars atleast need to be capped so i can get my weekly mats. but with 100% sh bonus you should be able to cap each character each week.

lol dont change now make new character with the wanted prof, or if you are sub use the free 60 for that prof

[pooks]

Are the Dread Guard relics going to be archived? If so does that mean they still can be crafted by Artifice? And if not, what happens to those that are currently equipped?

I spent thousands of basic comms to learn these schematics. If they are no longer able to be crafted that will really blow like a Lewinsky.

[Slipfeed]

I may be cynical, but when I see in these changes amounts to "Open cartel crates for crafting materials".

[MeNaCe-NZ]

What question? I stand by my statements as stated.

 

What are you even talking about adjusting the mats? It's effectively already been done.

We are losing the schems and there will be schems to learn in their place thus the new schems which that they could "auto give us" but won't already have or have not got new mats associated with them.

 

I'm still wondering what you meant by "Schematics and items are different things, schematics would have to have the mats adjusted as well. " in regards to the mats.

 

I can't even begin to argue that point because I really am not sure what you meant around the mat statement you made in regards to the rest of your argument around development difficulty/testing etc.

 

The fact that they messed up willpower schematics (Implants/Earpieces) in 3.x and weren't able to correct them in the ten months since SoR's release tells me that fixing schematics is hard for them. The fact that they obviously use some sort of automation over which they have no control (Cunning Tank gear still included in 3.x) tells me that they can't easily automate mat changes.

 

All mastery now would somewhat alleviate any issues around that ( like wise cunning tank gear ).

 

Also why are you calling your point of view or opinion a fact? The "fact" could equally be they just couldn't be bothered much like they couldn't be bothered giving us equivalent schematics. Doesn't actually mean it's too hard for them or "they have no control" over their automation processes.

Based around your comments of you being a software engineer I thought you would have a better grasp on the developmental process and that nothing is ideally ever "out of their control" to paraphrase you.

 

It's more or less what they bother to direct their developmental resources to and I would believe the issues you mentioned weren't considered overly major to them to resolve ( also I would wager development went straight from 3.0 to 4.0 after the Christmas break which is somewhat backed up by the lack of fixes we got ).

 

Your implication ( as I am personally seeing it at least ) that it's more an inability on their behalf to know what they are doing as developers as opposed to them just choosing not to do it is whimsical at best.

 

And mat changes? They are already ideally automating mat changes, we're talking about schematic changes here but I'll assume that was a typo.

 

What conspiracy theory? There were plain-as-day bugs in 3.x that still haven't been resolved and that (as I just illustrated above) show that they don't have the kind of automation tools to make what you want easy.

 

This conspiracy theory:

 

I don't doubt that the devs knew about many of the 3.x bugs, I believe that EA just chose not to change the ship date or spend more of its multimillion dollars to fix them because they thought shipping with bugs was better for that quarter's report than not doing so.

 

Funny though because here you say the devs knew of the bugs and basically implied EA directed them to not bother fixing them where as above you seem to imply they plain couldn't fix them.

 

Also a few broken schematics or bugs in however many 100's ( 100's perhaps ) schematics means they don't have automation tools to do so? Even though they are doing it in other areas of the game like the actual items produced by the schematics I believe get upgraded in our inventory/gear not just plain removed?

 

That makes perfect sense ...

 

 

 

Yes, it does. It comes from nowhere near anything resembling knowledge of how software development works. It is just your outsider's view of what you think *should* be easy.

 

I didn't say it would be *too much* work, I said it would be *more* work, work which BW has already demonstrated isn't something they are willing to do.

 

Outsider's view is it? You work for Bioware then do you? I can answer that for you, no you don't.

 

Willing to do or unable to do? I seem to be getting mixed messages from your posts - make up your mind which is it? Your entire argument came around from you stating it would be "a lot of extra work" not just "more" work. In reality you have no grasp on how much extra work it would or would not be, you can just make assumptions like I can except I can base my assumptions on how much EXTRA work it would be around the changes they are already making which are more or less already in line with changing chems and giving us a copy of the upgraded schem ( same as we would for mods etc. unless they are going to strip those from everyone too ).

 

And really based on the statement in your post here I think it's you who may be lacking in general knowledge around software developmental processes but I do try keep real life out of these sorts of arguments because at the end of the day people can pretend to be whatever they like and so I'll deal with what you actually post and facts around it rather than some self inflated opinion of your supposed knowledge outside of this game ... so far those posts are lacking but there is always room for improvement.

 

But hey by all means, pretend you know me, what I do, self inflate yourself some more and you'll just look all the more silly when your posts don't back up anything to do with the knowledge you supposedly possess from your "insider's view" heh.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It actually does since you said more materials when I said they were taking materials away. And what is this extra step you're going on about? If anything they are removing a step from REing by getting rid of green schematics and going straight to blue.

 

More materials to keep track on in regards to crafting the same schematic I could craft prior to 4.0. Right now there is only a database to work off that came from PTS data etc. so I probably can't legitimately state an example until Wednesday ( my time ) but so far the amount of mats my example would keep track of to craft would go from 4 to 8 from 4 different crew skills.

 

Now what is confirmed by BW is I have to craft something to then craft my end product. That doesn't come across to me as overly streamlined.

 

And whilst I agree the RE changes are wonderful for the most part they are still only temporary improvements to the entire process. Meaning once you've RE'd all you require you're still stuck with that extra step in crafting and the RE improvements mean nothing to your process any longer.