Level synch = Revival of SWTOR

[ikinai]

 

Level Sync needs to be optional.

 

Like my clothing!

 

Wait, what?

[TirGavin]

I'm for this change, if three things are true:

 

1. XP scales up to represent the increased challenge / level of the mobs (already confirmed).

2. Loot / credits / drops also scale up (haven't seen this confirmed).

3. It's optional (sometimes it's nice, for whatever reason, to be able to stomp the mobs or avoid them easier).

 

Either way, though, it's not really enough to scare me away from the game as a whole.

[TUXs]

Why? why do you need to be optional whats the point? why would you go back to those plants for grey mobs? to one shot world bosses or datacrons i guess and one shot players on a pvp server... that takes like 10 minutes lol why would you back there again?

Because it would have been an amazingly great "mentor" tool...I didn't create a level based game, Bioware did...reducing the value of earning levels is weak...it's like they're not sure what they're doing at all.

[AntiochosTheos]

I am personally most upset about the fact that they announced the whole level synch change so late... I mean they are massively changing how the game works after FOUR years. Not only the new parts but also the old parts as well.

 

So it looks like the waited until many people had subbed through summer to get those "awsome" rewards. I admit that Bioware has all the right in the world to do so, however there are other ways to show appreciation to your customer base.

[Beyorn]

I am personally most upset about the fact that they announced the whole level synch change so late... I mean they are massively changing how the game works after FOUR years. Not only the new parts but also the old parts as well.

 

So it looks like the waited until many people had subbed through summer to get those "awsome" rewards. I admit that Bioware has all the right in the world to do so, however there are other ways to show appreciation to your customer base.

 

That is why they waited so late because they knew there would be an uproar. Bioware could screw up a free lunch ;(.

[bdatt]

Folks that are against level sync probably haven't seen the full impact or rationale; neither have I of course. It's presumably because they are reusing that content for future game features (presumably companions, alliance, or whatever is coming, like they did with conquest). TBH, they should have put it in for conquest since that reused many of the old heroics. I'm sure it's not being implemented to make it more difficult for you to farm 1000 kill achievements or solo kill WBs.

 

My suspicion is if it were to become optional, that toggle would have to cut off many new features:

- end game crystals

- conquest rewards

- alliance system, companion recruitment, or whatever they have planned in 4.0

- anything new they have planned in the future that reuses original planets

 

I'm sure coding all of those exceptions would be a pain and likely lead to bugs where an exploit was open.

Edited October 8, 2015 by bdatt

[RavageXX]

From an "old content relevance standpoint" level syncing really seems like it's only "beneficial" to new players....I really find it hard to believe that any old players are suddenly going to say, come Oct.20th,

 

"Woo! Full exp for that gray level 10 quest on Hutta! After 4 years, I can finally experience the rest of the story because it's all worthwhile now...because EXPERIENCE!"

 

I mean, anyone who was REALLY interested in the story.... would have done these quests, regardless.

 

I think they should create new rewards, or a new type of Commendation, like "Exploration Commendations" and then create a new pool of rewards that you can spend them on...

 

unique mounts, toys, gear.... whatever, use your imagination.

 

However, besides the obvious additional work it would require, there's also the point that any one who has already completed these quests would now be ineligible...Would have to give them a way to reset their side quest progress.

Edited October 8, 2015 by RavageXX

[TUXs]

Level syncing really seems like it's only "beneficial" to new players....I really find it hard to believe that any old players are suddenly going to say, come Oct.20th,

 

"Woo! Full exp for that gray level 10 quest on Hutta! After 4 years, I can finally experience the rest of the story because it's all worthwhile now...because EXPERIENCE!"

 

I mean, anyone who was REALLY interested in the story.... would have done these quests, regardless.

 

I think they should create new rewards, or a new type of Commendation, like "Exploration Commendations" and then create a new pool of rewards that you can spend them on...

 

unique mounts, toys, gear.... whatever, use your imagination.

 

However, besides the obvious additional work it would require, there's also the point that any one who has already completed these quests would now be ineligible...Would have to give them a way to reset their side quest progress.

You're exactly right. That's why I've been saying that Bioware is gambling the loyal customers they've had for 4+ years, for the customers they don't have yet...

[DarkJediMage]

Why? why do you need to be optional whats the point? why would you go back to those plants for grey mobs? to one shot world bosses or datacrons i guess and one shot players on a pvp server... that takes like 10 minutes lol why would you go back there again?

 

How would you balance that for pvp servers? Super fun getting ganked by a non-synced player "optional".

 

The low lvl planets have high lvl mission areas/zones that you have go back to like class stories.

Edited October 8, 2015 by DarkJediMage

[xxIncubixx]

The low lvl planets have high lvl mission areas/zones that you have go back to like class stories.

 

again that takes at max 5 minutes

[AntiochosTheos]

Why? why do you need to be optional whats the point? why would you go back to those plants for grey mobs? to one shot world bosses or datacrons i guess and one shot players on a pvp server... that takes like 10 minutes lol why would you go back there again?

 

How would you balance that for pvp servers? Super fun getting ganked by a non-synced player "optional".

 

First of all, it seems that with level synch your PVP problems might not go away since down leveled players will still be powerful. With this in mind: Of course very few ppl go back to low level planets to one-shoot things for 0 Xp. However, even with down leveled players being still powerful, it will be so much more annoying doing anything (Datacron, codex, exploration, mats etc.) because while mobs ignore you now, they will bother and pester you then.

 

Sure you won't die, sure you will still only need 2,3 shots, but that will take up time which it shouldn't and which is annoying. And btw, how ppl spend their time, and if it's to one-shot grey mobs, is neither your nor actually bioware's business. Unless of course ppl have played the game "wrong" the last 4 years. Cheers...

[DarkJediMage]

again that takes at max 5 minutes

going through heroic area mobs on drumond kaas for the bh or inq class story synced down to lvl 15 will not take 5 minutes.

[TravelersWay]

again that takes at max 5 minutes

 

Hyperbole much? Regardless, there have been many solutions proffered to resolve the perceived issues that everyone keeps mentioning that solve those problems better and more effectively than level syncing. If you have chosen to ignore them, then that's your loss.

[Alssaran]

You're exactly right. That's why I've been saying that Bioware is gambling the loyal customers they've had for 4+ years, for the customers they don't have yet...

 

Truth be told: The loyal customers they do have aren't exactly nice to deal with either. Come any change and they flip out like crazy monkeys. I bet that most people who currently play the game as a subscriber don't care either way, mandatory or optional. And loosing those 20% that do care so much in favour of a lot of new players...

 

The hype around the new SW movies will create some revenue through the next years, like it or not.

[ikinai]

Truth be told: The loyal customers they do have aren't exactly nice to deal with either. Come any change and they flip out like crazy monkeys. I bet that most people who currently play the game as a subscriber don't care either way, mandatory or optional. And loosing those 20% that do care so much in favour of a lot of new players...

 

The hype around the new SW movies will create some revenue through the next years, like it or not.

 

If they lost 20% of the current subscribers that would be terrible for the game. It's highly unlikely that the hype for the new movie will garner that many new players to this Star Wars game that has been out for four years and already has a reputation.

[Alssaran]

If they lost 20% of the current subscribers that would be terrible for the game. It's highly unlikely that the hype for the new movie will garner that many new players to this Star Wars game that has been out for four years and already has a reputation.

 

Who knows? It's all random at this point. Besides: If I lose 25k with this change and can bring in 45k new players who subscribe by making it easier. I still have increased my revenue. I have scared off some old players, but it's all about revenue.

 

Truth be told: Most people still stay or check the game out again after a few months. The ultimate decision to never log in past date X isn't really a real thing.

[ikinai]

Who knows? It's all random at this point. Besides: If I lose 25k with this change and can bring in 45k new players who subscribe by making it easier. I still have increased my revenue. I have scared off some old players, but it's all about revenue.

 

Truth be told: Most people still stay or check the game out again after a few months. The ultimate decision to never log in past date X isn't really a real thing.

 

And what if they don't get the 45k? Now they lost those 25k, it's all conjecture. You don't know that will or will not happen. If you were running a business, wouldn't you rather keep your current customers and grow that base rather than losing some to gain a few?

[Alssaran]

And what if they don't get the 45k? Now they lost those 25k, it's all conjecture. You don't know that will or will not happen. If you were running a business, wouldn't you rather keep your current customers and grow that base rather than losing some to gain a few?

 

It's called a gamble. I wouldn't even call it that since Bioware probably has the metrics and the team to look at them and make decisions. People on the forum might not agree, but the data is there.

 

If they see that the mandatory level synch is not going well, they will introduce an optional checkbox. If the curve is going up, they won't. It's just past ridiculous at this point. The vocal minority on this forum has been heard the past four days. On all issues. Now let the data speak for itself.

 

I don't even care for the optional part. I think it won't work, but maybe Bioware can prove me wrong. Whatever floats someones boat. Just don't expect the impossible to happen and Bioware to introduce it with 4.0 priot to January.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alssaran

[ikinai]

It's called a gamble. I wouldn't even call it that since Bioware probably has the metrics and the team to look at them and make decisions. People on the forum might not agree, but the data is there.

 

If they see that the mandatory level synch is not going well, they will introduce an optional checkbox. If the curve is going up, they won't. It's just past ridiculous at this point. The vocal minority on this forum has been heard the past four days. On all issues. Now let the data speak for itself.

 

I don't even care for the optional part. I think it won't work, but maybe Bioware can prove me wrong. Whatever floats someones boat. Just don't expect the impossible to happen and Bioware to introduce it with 4.0 priot to January.

 

Sure let the data speak...oh wait there isn't any data or metrics on any of it yet. Yes, it's a gamble, but why take a risk when it could be minimized to begin with? Why alienate players for a possible increase that may or may not work out? Why not try to keep the vocal minority playing and paying and bring in new players? Why not do both to start off with?

[Alssaran]

Sure let the data speak...oh wait there isn't any data or metrics on any of it yet. Yes, it's a gamble, but why take a risk when it could be minimized to begin with? Why alienate players for a possible increase that may or may not work out? Why not try to keep the vocal minority playing and paying and bring in new players? Why not do both to start off with?

 

Is it a given fact that there is no data, or are you assuming? Companies constantly aquire data on player behaviour to make decisions on what to do next. This whole expansion was probably based on the data that there are more casual players, who don't frequent the forum or are too invested in either NiM or ranked PvP, than any other part of the community.

 

There are two variables which we do not know as of yet. That is why neither side can have a superior ground at the moment:

 

Are there any plans that would make it impossible for the level synch to be optional? World events? Changes to conquest after the break? New features on Zakuul?

 

How much effort is it to make the thing optional?

 

I can only answer the second one from personal experience. What sometimes appears to be a small task can be monumental in terms of coding and bug-fixing. Bioware has to consider if the investment is worth the gain. We can't do that. We might shout for optional, mandatory or nothing at all. But in the end we aren't making the decisions. Revenue is.

[ikinai]

Is it a given fact that there is no data, or are you assuming? Companies constantly aquire data on player behaviour to make decisions on what to do next. This whole expansion was probably based on the data that there are more casual players, who don't frequent the forum or are too invested in either NiM or ranked PvP, than any other part of the community.

 

There are two variables which we do not know as of yet. That is why neither side can have a superior ground at the moment:

 

Are there any plans that would make it impossible for the level synch to be optional? World events? Changes to conquest after the break? New features on Zakuul?

 

How much effort is it to make the thing optional?

 

I can only answer the second one from personal experience. What sometimes appears to be a small task can be monumental in terms of coding and bug-fixing. Bioware has to consider if the investment is worth the gain. We can't do that. We might shout for optional, mandatory or nothing at all. But in the end we aren't making the decisions. Revenue is.

 

Exactly, it all comes down to revenue. If they lose more than they gain it was a bust, but if you could minimize it, would you not want to do that? As a 3D animation programmer I too know about the second choice. I also know you don't alienate your users to possibly bring in more, maybe. There is no data that can tell the future.

[Shipwright]

If they lost 20% of the current subscribers that would be terrible for the game. It's highly unlikely that the hype for the new movie will garner that many new players to this Star Wars game that has been out for four years and already has a reputation.

 

I will continue to play, the change does not really bother me.

 

But it bears mentioning that the casual guild I am has lost 10 players as of today (the ones who flat out said "no, have no interest), and only 4 have logged on since the day after this was announced. Their reason, they like being to outlevel a boss fight if they want to. If they're always going be 32 at the end of Alderaan ( for example, as said in the dev post), they don't want it.

 

Only 1 person in the guild plays GW2 with me ( it's really a bunch of long time gaming friends). Many tried it, and hated the level snyc. So, perhaps it is no surprise they don't like this.

 

While 10 have said "no thanks, bye", others have not been logging in. We speak in skype, and basically the majority are not feeling enthused or are outright not interested.

 

They are not like I am, they do not come to the forums, they found about level sync from me telling them more details about KotFE. So by Thursday evening, after the stream and dev post, word was out.

 

Not being forum visitors, etc, they don't come here to post. We are the minority here it seems, the forum posters.

 

No idea how this will end up for the game. It could be a big success, it could make no real difference, it could hurt. But I find the idea that nobody is really leaving over this to be incorrect, and find it mind boggling to read posts throughout the forums that state their leaving is good for the game.

 

While I am ok with this change, I would much prefer they make this optional. I don't know how many players it will attract, but I am seeing players who were logging in daily, either having left or just not having logged in for a week. Those who did not outright quit, are saying things like the following: "Well, it's too GW2 for me, and I hated that game." Really, I don't see this as good. It's anecdotal, yes. But I have to believe there will be some negative consequences here.

 

In reality, I feel pretty sure this go live as mandatory. I don't see them changing it. How it turns out, is hard to say. I expect things may go along as usual. If we see a big boost in subs, I feel it's gonna be the story expansion, the lure of more leveling for those who love increases free 60 character, and movie hype that does it. The level sync is wrench thrown into works, a wild card, and how that pans out is really an unknown.

[Alssaran]

In reality, I feel pretty sure this go live as mandatory. I don't see them changing it. How it turns out, is hard to say. I expect things may go along as usual. If we see a big boost in subs, I feel it's gonna be the story expansion, the lure of more leveling for those who love increases free 60 character, and movie hype that does it. The level sync is wrench thrown into works, a wild card, and how that pans out is really an unknown.

 

I think it all boils down to subjective viewpoints. You have some people who quit over it. I know a majority of people who like it/don't think it's a big deal. Neither of us is seeing the big picture here. Time will tell. Besides: It's not always as "alive" or "dead" for a game as some people make it out to be. If people quit over it and many do include the reason "mandatory level synch" in their survey, then be sure as hell EA is going to beat Bioware to the punchline when saying: "Change it!". The game won't suddenly shut down if there's an eight percent crash, for a reason that can be fixed by making it optional.

 

What I cannot agree with is leaving before even trying it out. Guild Wars 2 is an entirely different game with a different setting and gameplay experience. "This is too GW2!" seems like an excuse that way. Someone should at least try the vegetables before saying they are good or bad. If they are good, continue. If they are bad, don't eat them and wait for something new. Or desert. Whatever.

 

Exactly, it all comes down to revenue. If they lose more than they gain it was a bust, but if you could minimize it, would you not want to do that? As a 3D animation programmer I too know about the second choice. I also know you don't alienate your users to possibly bring in more, maybe. There is no data that can tell the future.

 

As I said: To minimize impact is not always an option. Sometimes the effort for said minimization is way too complicated to be done in a certain timeframe or within the schedule. You also can't "minimize" in terms of making it right for everyone. Someone is always going to object to a change. If 90% of all the players don't care for level synch at all and won't quit over it, with only ten percent going. What's there to minimize? Invest a ton of work and money to keep 1% more people around for a few months?

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alssaran

[Uruare]

I think it all boils down to subjective viewpoints. You have some people who quit over it. I know a majority of people who like it/don't think it's a big deal. Neither of us is seeing the big picture here. Time will tell. Besides: It's not always as "alive" or "dead" for a game as some people make it out to be. If people quit over it and many do include the reason "mandatory level synch" in their survey, then be sure as hell EA is going to beat Bioware to the punchline when saying: "Change it!". The game won't suddenly shut down if there's an eight percent crash, for a reason that can be fixed by making it optional.

 

What I cannot agree with is leaving before even trying it out. Guild Wars 2 is an entirely different game with a different setting and gameplay experience. "This is too GW2!" seems like an excuse that way. Someone should at least try the vegetables before saying they are good or bad. If they are good, continue. If they are bad, don't eat them and wait for something new. Or desert. Whatever.

 

 

 

As I said: To minimize impact is not always an option. Sometimes the effort for said minimization is way too complicated to be done in a certain timeframe or within the schedule. You also can't "minimize" in terms of making it right for everyone. Someone is always going to object to a change. If 90% of all the players don't care for level synch at all and won't quit over it, with only ten percent going. What's there to minimize? Invest a ton of work and money to keep 1% more people around for a few months?

 

In my life, I've eaten a lot of broccoli, relatively speaking. I like broccoli in general, and in various ways it can be prepared.

 

I don't much care for it in stir fry though. Some love it, many seem not to put that much thought towards roughage filler as it amounts to being therein, but me? I actively dislike it in stir fry.

 

I have my reasons. They might be like many others' reasons, but these reasons belong to me. For the purpose of this vignette, they're unimportant.

 

If there's a stir fry I actively enjoy, it isn't I've with broccoli in it. I know this because I've eaten lots of stir fries and whenever broccoli has been in them and I had no option to get it left out, I didn't like the stir fry as much.

 

Sometimes I still liked it, but always despite there being broccoli in it, never because of it.

 

So, Bioware Restaurant is changing up the stir fry. Almost everything they're proposing to change looks mighty tasty to me. I'm eagerly awaiting this new recipe, cause honestly, I haven't been super thrilled by what it's been to date and the ingredients going into the new recipe are all things I actively enjoy.

 

But they're putting broccoli in it. No exceptions. No, I can't have it left out of mine - everybody gets the exact same stir fry and that's that.

 

Makes it easier for the cooks that way, that much is obvious, but it certainly isn't impressing me.

 

The broccoli itself, OK, it's not my favorite thing in stir fry, but I could be OK with that... If I had to be.

 

Why do I have to be? Because the cooks are too lazy to let anyone have any choice on it? Because the chef has some Perfect Vision™ and would sooner stomp out of the back and scream at anyone saying to question perfection and he has 30 years experience in knowing what good food is and you shall either shut up and thank your guardian angels for guiding you to his bounty as he intended it to be or you can get the f*** out?

 

The first of those seems certain, whether it's a driving purpose or isn't. The second... Ehh... Could be. Very well could be. Creative types can be exactly like that, and not infrequently are about something.

 

Is it because they're some legitimizing reason we just don't know about yet?

 

The fact that I have to ask these questions pisses me off infinitely more then the matter of the broccoli itself.

 

I can deal with the broccoli just fine. But when I feel like I, -and everyone-, are being treated like idiot children that can neither handle a straight explanation nor even warrant being given one irrespective?

 

You might make the best stir fry in the world, and I'd sooner burn your restaurant down than eat it and be blatantly and egregiously disrespected like that.

 

The broccoli isn't the real issue for me at that point. Not at all.

 

The issue there, as it becomes here, is how dare they fail completely to explain to the customers why this is so.

 

No bullcrap required. No screaming necessary.

 

Some might not like their reasoning is their reasoning is given, but in giving it, a position is taken. One can stand by a position and defend it, especially if it's reasonable by any sane measures.

 

Silence on the matter?

 

Children hide their heads and hope problems will just go away.

 

Children with no respect for others will do things that affect others and be taken unawares that explanations might very well be both required and respectfully necessary.

 

So, this change that affects everyone with no explanation what do ever as to why it can't be optional is going live. It's way too late for that to change, and that's just the way it is.

 

But I've played games with level syncing type effects many times before. I generally approve of his they work. I've also played many MMOs in which similar features existed, and where they weren't optional, I liked the games less for that.

 

So, those of you trying to tell people like me that we can't know... You're full of it. There is zero chance that Bioware is going to magically get me to like broccoli in my stir fry; not gonna happen.

 

How do I know? The same way I know that if I jump off my roof, I'm going to die. I've never jumped off my roof before, nor have I ever died before, but by the power vested in me off having a uniquely human capacity to extrapolate, factor for external evidence and drive accurate conclusions predicting certain things, I can safely assume that jumping off my roof would almost certainly kill me.

 

Just so, I predict that Bioware's mandatory sync will annoy and inconvenience me more often than it does anything else relevant to me.

 

I predict that I will not find it to be more or less useful to me than I did in GW2, and ire will probably wind up being more annoying, because GW2 was built from the ground up factoring for its level syncing system in everything it has going on.

 

Here? They're dovetailing it into a game that no part of had been designed or engineered to even coexist with let alone synergize well with.

 

At best, I'm going to be as bothered by it here as I was in GW2. That bother was minimal but constant; a nuisance that had minimal impact on much, but didn't actually make anything better for its existence either.

 

Superfluous, in short.

 

In GW2, the explanations for why were in plain evidencing. They had an idea and thought it was the best idea for their game.

 

And the fact that they had the minimally required guts to to simply say so, I could respect. OK, of we go, not what I would have preferred, but I'll live.

 

Here?

 

Listen to that ignominious silence.

 

Less than three weeks to go and they've still got their heads in the sand up to their shoulders about... A lot.

 

And the incensing part, for me, is that I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with the devs or any of the parties with whom were generally familiar.

 

It's very probably because cowardly marketing clowns don't actually know the first thing about community engagement and hobble everyone that might actually put footwork into these things, and gag everyone that might actually even want to share information.

 

So no, I won't be doing anything egregious like quit over this, but I'm not going to be at all impressed by the failures to communicate and the disrespectful lack of engagement there's been by anyone upon this.

 

They could at least find or borrow or steal a spine and make a statement about it.

 

Are they such puling moffets that they won't even say 'We think this way is best and that's that'?

 

And before someone says 'they don't have to say it, it's implied', you can take a guess at where you can stick that.

 

I apparently don't have to tell you. It's implied.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Uruare

[DarthOvertone]

There may be like ten people that unsub because of Level Sync. Let's be real here.

 

At the same time, I doubt Level Sync alone will bring back any players. Current players will probably enjoy old content being a challenge again though. But I seriously doubt that anyone will care in any significant way, i.e. by unsubbing or subbing, about Level Sync. It's more of a QoL thing.