Level synch = Revival of SWTOR

[Raansu]

Sounds like a real nightmare scenario, and one pretty much synonymous with the Killik (the Borg of SW) lifestyle; thankfully, BW:A quite rightly rejects such a narrow and supremely inflexible approach, and it's not at all surprising that a game so old (FFXI, 2002) would do such a thing. It is limiting, and ultimately self-destructive.

 

Yep its so self destructive that it still has more servers than swtor, more players, and it never needed to go F2P and the game is nearly 15 years old. SWTOR couldn't even make it to one year before crashing into the ground. People leave this game left and right because there's no consistent end game content. Why play a game online if you're going to play by yourself? That's beyond dumb. Most of this games population is full of floaters that run through then quit after a certain point. You need to group content to maintain a player base.

[Uruare]

Yep its so self destructive that it still has more servers than swtor, more players, and it never needed to go F2P and the game is nearly 15 years old. SWTOR couldn't even make it to one year before crashing into the ground. People leave this game left and right because there's no consistent end game content. Why play a game online if you're going to play by yourself? That's beyond dumb. Most of this games population is full of floaters that run through then quit after a certain point. You need to group content to maintain a player base.

 

The day we start getting single player star wars RPG games ala the knights of the old republic series again is the day I drop this sad stand-in altogether.

 

Here in the western market, FFXI isn't and had never done all that well in any case. Vice versa, star wars isn't that popular an IP in Japan.

 

Ever been to the Tokyo Game Show? I went four years in a row, and had the privilege of meeting FFXIV:ARR's leading man, Yoshi-P, after one of the relaunch panels.

 

He basically said that FFXIV had to be redesigned because the market was to different now from that in which FFXI meet with such great success. A Realm Reborn was SE's pride in their work; they got it wrong and they were making it right.

 

So, apparently, the makers of FFXI disagree with your premise. If the new is going to succeed in these modern times, it won't be by doing the same things that 2002's MMOs were doing in much the same ways they did them.

 

You think SWTOR went F2P fast though? Have you met Wildstar?

 

NCSoft made Wildstar with the hardcore exclusively in mind. It immediately feel to the bottom of the internet and hasn't quite been able to get up since, despite the fact that they've completely reversed THAT design decision in favor of welcoming the casual and solo players by massive overhauls all over the game.

 

Last but not least... Even in FFXI, as it remains now, is not nearly the early EQ1 emulator anymore. Even EQ1 is still around and kicking, but you don't really need a party to do lots of things in that anymore either.

 

Here in the west, world of Warcraft has been a big thing for a long time. You know, it never really did take off that well in Japan though?

 

And you know, is never even vaguely threaten the popularity of Lineage and Lineage 2 in Korea? Blizzard's never been able to dethrone NCSoft on their home turf... Or Square Enix on theirs.

 

You wouldn't happen to maybe suppose that there might be more at play than whether or not a game is F2P, might'nt you?

 

I mean, yeah, SWTOR's popularity has often had nowhere to go but up, but we can all at least agree that World of Warcraft has been at least mildly popular for a while and that at least some people have played it, yes?

 

What could possibly be happening when even a game as modestly successful as Blizzard's 800 pound gorilla in general... Had never dethroned Lineage on its home turf or FFXI on its?

 

According to the head maker of the now very popular FFXIV:ARR, final fantasy needed to speak to people like WoW did if they ever wanted it to be popular where WoW has been popular.

 

And you know what? FFXIV:ARR is doing exactly that pretty well.

 

It's nothing like FFXI ever was though.

 

According to you premise, Raansu, that can't be happening though. How can an MMO so casual and solo friendly be genuinely threatening to finally dethrone WoW everywhere that's ever generally been regarded as Blizzard's home turf?

 

How can an MMO that embraces the soloist as much as those that won't play alone if they can ever avoid doing so be doing so well, Raansu?

Edited October 7, 2015 by Uruare

[Raansu]

I don't think you have played ARR.....More than half the game forces group content which is a good thing and FFXIV constantly updates end game content with group content, something swtor is failing to do, and the massive drop off of players is incredibly obvious. SWTOR is on its way to the grave.

 

Solo content is fine, but you people trying to turn an MMO into a pure single player game is idiotic. At that point why bother playing an online game? The point of playing online is to play with others not sit in the corner and pretend they don't exist.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Raansu

[Khevar]

NCSoft made Wildstar with the hardcore exclusively in mind. It immediately feel to the bottom of the internet and hasn't quite been able to get up since, despite the fact that they've completely reversed THAT design decision in favor of welcoming the casual and solo players by massive overhauls all over the game.

Personally, I feel this is more indicative of the fact that Wildstar just isn't a very good game, period, as opposed to ascribing it's failure to "catering to hardcore".

 

A number of people in my guild play multiple MMOs, and all of them enjoy group content. NONE of them (myself included) liked Wildstar.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Khevar

[Newyankalt]

I don't think you have played ARR.....More than half the game forces group content which is a good thing and FFXIV constantly updates end game content with group content, something swtor is failing to do, and the massive drop off of players is incredibly obvious. SWTOR is on its way to the grave.

 

Solo content is fine, but you people trying to turn an MMO into a pure single player game is idiotic. At that point why bother playing an online game? The point of playing online is to play with others not sit in the corner and pretend they don't exist.

 

No one should have to forced to play with others or even interact with them for that matter... It's their own choice if they wish to do so

[Mikahrtwo]

I don't think you have played ARR.....More than half the game forces group content which is a good thing and FFXIV constantly updates end game content with group content, something swtor is failing to do, and the massive drop off of players is incredibly obvious. SWTOR is on its way to the grave.

 

Solo content is fine, but you people trying to turn an MMO into a pure single player game is idiotic. At that point why bother playing an online game? The point of playing online is to play with others not sit in the corner and pretend they don't exist.

 

FFXIV is not all that popular in the west.

 

And needing to finish the requirement to be able to play expansion was HUGE problem.

 

The point of playing online game is same as point of playing any other game. And you dare going around telling people how should they enjoy the game?

 

And it turned out not that many people enjoy playing with others, especially in a game that is somewhat a sequel to KOTOR (and all other BW games) and is vastly more suitable as "solo with optional coop" than forced grouping farming/grinding game like FFXI was long time ago.

 

The genre is adapting to what people actually WANT to play. If you are not satisfied that they make games people actually WANT to play, go do something else.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Mikahrtwo

[sentientomega]

Exactly, though I think people should be prepared with the knowledge that if they join an MMO, people are quite likely to want to interact with them at some point. Players sharing the environment, THAT'S an MMO; players who are entirely alone in a game and don't see anyone else, and are the only ones interacting with the game, ever, THAT'S a single-player game. Swtor is an MMO, NOT a single-player game; people CAN network, IF they want to avail themselves of the OPTION to do so.

[Sarfux]

We don't all worship Bioware and labor under the inexplicable conviction that they do not and cannot do anything wrong, or that if they ever did, it would still be wonderful because they'd have meant well.

 

You suffer from the pitiful delusion that Bioware is everyone's friend, or at the very least, your friend.

 

It's a business. Money makes the rules. Pursuit of money sculpts the means and methods. All talk of 'what an MMO is supposed to be' and attempts at evoking references to non-existent principles for their own sake is as unto contemplating the sound a falling leaf makes when nobody cares that it existed in the first place.

 

And you? I'm not sure who you try so hard to convince that Bioware is infallible and everything they do is amazing and anyone that disagrees is wrong by default.

 

Is it those of us that don't believe that at all, whatever our reasons might be, or is it yourself?

 

Whatever answer you might make, it makes little difference.

 

You're that leaf in the forest. Just another leaf in the woods.

 

They didn't care you existed in the first place.

 

Thank you for the assumption that I think BioWare is my friend or the friend's of any players whatsoever. But, once again, assumptions are to be expected on an online gaming forum.

 

But you are free to think of me in any way you want!

[DarthSabreth]

Exactly, though I think people should be prepared with the knowledge that if they join an MMO, people are quite likely to want to interact with them at some point. Players sharing the environment, THAT'S an MMO; players who are entirely alone in a game and don't see anyone else, and are the only ones interacting with the game, ever, THAT'S a single-player game. Swtor is an MMO, NOT a single-player game; people CAN network, IF they want to avail themselves of the OPTION to do so.

 

I don't think anyone has an issue with BW adding group content. what folks are upset about lvl syncing is making lvl 60 / 65s feel like lvl 10 / or what ever planet you are on at the time.

 

1. finding groups for heroics are painful esp at off peak hours for those that work nights or off peak hours.

2. its old content, finding groups was tough when it was new, but now that its old it would be more fun to pull your own teeth than spamming general.

3. its a matter of convenience, right now you can spam rep on voss which is mostly through heroics. good luck getting into a group for that after lvl sync.

4. its a matter of RP, A max lvl toon that's braved the toughest foes in the galaxy will be dumbed down to be comparable to a lvl 10 on hutta / ord mantel. that is very game breaking for an RP'er.

 

lvl sync may be good for some, but not all. My sub runs out in November and it wont be renewed.

[Newyankalt]

I also play on a European server yet I live in Canada, I am on that server due to friends I sometimes play with however I usually play when its like 4AM in the UK so finding any groups at all is difficult

[Faelandaea]

Down to just a week and a half before Early Access! SO excited to check out these changes for myself and see how they really are in experience!

[HoloTweed]

No one should have to forced to play with others or even interact with them for that matter... It's their own choice if they wish to do so

 

Except, yeah, in an MMO, they SHOULD be.

 

You want a pure solo game, you should never play an MMO. Even then, this game lets you solo almost anything - so this complaining seems spurious at best.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Except, yeah, in an MMO, they SHOULD be.

 

You want a pure solo game, you should never play an MMO. Even then, this game lets you solo almost anything - so this complaining seems spurious at best.

 

Massively Multiplayer does not imply the players have to play together.

 

Just that there are multiple players in the game playing the game.

[TravelersWay]

Except, yeah, in an MMO, they SHOULD be.

 

You want a pure solo game, you should never play an MMO. Even then, this game lets you solo almost anything - so this complaining seems spurious at best.

 

Nothing in MMO stands for mandatory when it comes to grouping. Certainly there should be multi-player content, but nothing about that should require that people group to get through storylines, et al. There are many different ways to interact with people in an on-line game. Grouping for content is just one of them.

[Uruare]

I don't think you have played ARR.....More than half the game forces group content which is a good thing and FFXIV constantly updates end game content with group content, something swtor is failing to do, and the massive drop off of players is incredibly obvious. SWTOR is on its way to the grave.

 

Solo content is fine, but you people trying to turn an MMO into a pure single player game is idiotic. At that point why bother playing an online game? The point of playing online is to play with others not sit in the corner and pretend they don't exist.

 

Actually, I have a max level black mage on Balmung on whom I've done a decent bit of raiding and farming primals. There's a reasonably decent chance that I've played it enough to know exactly what I'm talking about, that said.

 

Are you forgetting the crafting classes? Yeeaaah, you forgot all about those, didn'tcha. Your don't get more solo friendly than having half the game, and an important half at that, comprising the entire crafting and materia melding industry.

 

Even combat classes require relatively little grouping to get to max level. A few mandatory dungeons and primal fights and you're back off the grid, free to solo your little heart out.

 

They make it really easy to group on there and the community is pretty nice to noobs, but you know what? They do offer a lot of group content.

 

And a lot for soloists to do too.

 

Is SWTOR doing something wrong?

 

On the contrary, I think they're finally doing something right and focusing on the market Bioware knows how to service and that the star wars IP inherently appeals to - those that want star wars stories.

 

Nobody watches the Star Wars movies because they want to farm the death star 350 times hoping for a +1 Stick to finally be theirs.

 

Nobody became a fan of star wars because they dreamed of raiding and dungeon farming.

 

Nobody. Not one.

 

Nobody loves the KotoR brand for its epic multiplayer either.

 

Bioware is finally getting wise to who their actual market is.

 

It's far smarter of them than to try to out-WoW WoW or to try to do it all like ARR is trying to do.

 

The market for great star wars stories definitely exists. With episode 7 around the corner, this IP is quite possibly on the verge of a renaissance.

 

And not one single person that winds up loving episode 7 and that which follows will do so because of anything to do with multiplayer anything period.

 

They'll fall in love with it because of the setting, the lore and the storytelling.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Uruare

[Princess_Chibi]

Actually, I have a max level black mage on Balmung on whom I've done a decent bit of raiding and farming primals. There's a reasonably decent chance that I've played it enough to know exactly what I'm talking about, that said.

 

Are you forgetting the crafting classes? Yeeaaah, you forgot all about those, didn'tcha. Your don't get more solo friendly than having half the game, and an important half at that, comprising the entire crafting and materia melding industry.

 

Even combat classes require relatively little grouping to get to max level. A few mandatory dungeons and primal fights and you're back off the grid, free to solo your little heart out.

 

They make it really easy to group on there and the community is pretty nice to noobs, but you know what? They do offer a lot of group content.

 

And a lot for soloists to do too.

 

Is SWTOR doing something wrong?

 

On the contrary, I think they're finally doing something right and focusing on the market Bioware knows how to service and that the star wars IP inherently appeals to - those that want star wars stories.

 

Nobody watches the Star Wars movies because they want to farm the death star 350 times hoping for a +1 Stick to finally be theirs.

 

Nobody became a fan of star wars because they dreamed of raiding and dungeon farming.

 

Nobody. Not one.

 

Nobody loves the KotoR brand for its epic multiplayer either.

 

Bioware is finally getting wise to who their actual market is.

 

It's far smarter of them than to try to out-WoW WoW or to try to do it all like ARR is trying to do.

 

The market for great star wars stories definitely exists. With episode 7 around the corner, this IP is quite possibly on the verge of a renaissance.

 

And not one single person that winds up loving episode 7 and that which follows will do so because of anything to do with multiplayer anything period.

 

They'll fall in love with it because of the setting, the lore and the storytelling.

 

Last time someone said this Episode 1 was released and we got To-Catch-A-Predator-Amidala and Jar Jar Retard.

[sentientomega]

Massively Multiplayer does not imply the players have to play together.

 

Just that there are multiple players in the game playing the game.

 

That's what I've been saying, why is that so hard for some people to accept?

 

From wiki:

A massively multiplayer online game (MMO or MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously.

 

From Webopedia:

Short for massively multiplayer online role-playing game it is a type of game genre. MMORPGs are online role-playing multiplayer games which allow thousands of gamers to play in the game's evolving virtual world at the same time via the Internet.

 

From Techopedia:

A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG) refers to videogames that allow a large number of players to participate simultaneously over an internet connection. These games usually take place in a shared world that the gamer can access after purchasing or installing the game software. The explosive growth in MMOGs has prompted many game designers to build online multiplayer modes into many traditionally single-player games.

 

From Dictionary.reference:

massive(ly) multiplayer online role-playing game: an internet-based computer game set in a virtual world, which can be played by many people at the same time, each of whom can interact with the others

 

Shared world, not necessarily shared content; ask any respectable source to define an MMO, and you will not an answer that judges people who prefer to go it alone, even if they know the option to do otherwise is there, if and when they decide to take it.

 

Nothing in MMO stands for mandatory when it comes to grouping. Certainly there should be multi-player content, but nothing about that should require that people group to get through storylines, et al. There are many different ways to interact with people in an on-line game. Grouping for content is just one of them.

 

I couldn't've phrased it better myself, well done. To those who would warp what MMOs are supposed to be about, isn't the real reason for your so-called grievance that we don't need to be dependent on YOU for our fun?

 

Down to just a week and a half before Early Access! SO excited to check out these changes for myself and see how they really are in experience!

 

Me too! My test cases will be Oricon, and SX.

Edited October 8, 2015 by sentientomega

[Alssaran]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the negative complaining against the level synch. I've spoken to a few people in my guild who believe it to be positive and have found a few reasons as to why it is. Some of those are:

 

Veterans will have an easier time playing with friends who are new to the game. I can play my favorite character and still get some useful rewards out of it. It will not necessarily stop ganking altogether, but for some events even the odds quite substantially. Going back and completing quests is finally worth the time. I can spend time farming equipment on the planets with the environments I like. I'm not bound to Oricon/CZ-198 and Co. to do Heroic missions to get gear.

People will actually try to find groups for world bosses again. Solo farming a world boss for CP is over. Now guilds need to form groups to do them. If that is an advantage for larger guilds remains to be seen. It seems some people favour the overall immersion-gain by not one hitting everything in sight. It is fairly unreasonable that any Jedi Master npc can be one-hitted by my smuggler and a kick to the groin.

 

 

Those are not the only five points that came up, but five of the most prominent points everyone seemed to agree on. Now I've been trying to list up the drawbacks for players, but I really can't find any that aren't subjective or already proven wrong.

 

You cannot solo Heroic missions, which will make it a tideous task to do them and always find groups. That one isn't necessary true since we have seen Musco beat Heroic groups. I assume set bonus will do the rest.

 

You cannot solo world boss encounters. I have to admit that I am kind of conflicted with that. I do get that some people enjoy spending time solo. Sometimes I do have those days where I just want to get home and be alone. But those world boss encounters are meant to represent huge threats. They are the top of the food chain on their planets. Killing world bosses in an MMORPG without a group seems really counter-productive. As was pointed out: MMORPG does not mean people are forced to play together. But there should at least be a few encounters that are off-limits to solo play.

 

The power curve is lost. That's also not entirely true. You still level up as you do the content. There is still a visible increase of power to your character. You go from fighting fleshraiders and rebels to fighting ancient Rakata evils and dread masters. You gain new, more complex abilities as you level. You get simple slash attacks from 1-10, get more force tricks as you level up. You unlock new planets by going up. As far as I know you are not synched UP to a planets level, only down. Which means a level ten person can't just go to Voss and level. He has to increase his power to do so.

 

 

Those are some of the points I heard from people who are agains the idea or are campaigning for an optional version and the first thing that came to mind. But here comes my question: What in those drawbacks actually justifies putting in the immense effort of making the level synch optional? Most of that is just plainly not true.

 

Would someone who is campaigning for an "optional checkbox" or "against the idea" take the time to explain to me as to why this level synch is bad? Because at the moment it reads like: "TL;DR: Change is bad. Bad change."

Edited October 8, 2015 by Alssaran

[Newyankalt]

Except, yeah, in an MMO, they SHOULD be.

 

You want a pure solo game, you should never play an MMO. Even then, this game lets you solo almost anything - so this complaining seems spurious at best.

 

This is pretty much a solo MMO, you don't need to group to do much of anything now however they're trying to force people to group through level sync even though finding groups can be incredibly tedious since well majority of people prefer to play solo as they level.

 

Also a little bit of footage from a heroic mission doesn't count for much, I'm sure it isn't like that for everything

Edited October 8, 2015 by Newyankalt

[Uruare]

Last time someone said this Episode 1 was released and we got To-Catch-A-Predator-Amidala and Jar Jar Retard.

 

With thinking like yours, never get in a boat. After all, the Titanic sank, what hope for anything ever put in the water?

 

Doomed. Everything's doomed. DoOoOoOomed!

Edited October 8, 2015 by Uruare

[EllieAnne]

 

You cannot solo Heroic missions, which will make it a tideous task to do them and always find groups. That one isn't necessary true since we have seen Musco beat Heroic groups. I assume set bonus will do the rest.

 

You cannot solo world boss encounters. I have to admit that I am kind of conflicted with that. I do get that some people enjoy spending time solo. Sometimes I do have those days where I just want to get home and be alone. But those world boss encounters are meant to represent huge threats. They are the top of the food chain on their planets. Killing world bosses in an MMORPG without a group seems really counter-productive. As was pointed out: MMORPG does not mean people are forced to play together. But there should at least be a few encounters that are off-limits to solo play.

 

The power curve is lost. That's also not entirely true. You still level up as you do the content. There is still a visible increase of power to your character. You go from fighting fleshraiders and rebels to fighting ancient Rakata evils and dread masters. You gain new, more complex abilities as you level. You get simple slash attacks from 1-10, get more force tricks as you level up. You unlock new planets by going up. As far as I know you are not synched UP to a planets level, only down. Which means a level ten person can't just go to Voss and level. He has to increase his power to do so.

 

 

Those are some of the points I heard from people who are agains the idea or are campaigning for an optional version and the first thing that came to mind. But here comes my question: What in those drawbacks actually justifies putting in the immense effort of making the level synch optional? Most of that is just plainly not true.

 

Would someone who is campaigning for an "optional checkbox" or "against the idea" take the time to explain to me as to why this level synch is bad? Because at the moment it reads like: "TL;DR: Change is bad. Bad change."

 

1) If I'm still overpowered, then what is the point of level-sync in terms of making a low planet more challenging?

2) 100% agreed except for the difficulty in finding a group on planet to take on the World Boss. I've been spamming off and on on Alderaan to take on Seigebreaker with no takers yet.

3) How valuable is that to someone at max level already?

 

To answer the optional question, let me point this out. When 12XP became permanent, a lot of people complained that they didn't like that style of play so THEY got the option to turn it off. All we are asking for is the same consideration. If we like being overpowered enough to one-shoot everything, then BW has already set the precedent that we should have to option to play our style. The other issue is that many people that like level-sync feel that we should all play the way they want. Those who want the option feel that that allows everyone to play the way they want which is a win-win. Level-sync is not bad if that's what you want. I don't want that for my toon AND there seems to be no good reason* to force it on everybody.

 

 

 

 

*At least with the move to disciplines (which I didn't like), the reason given was that trees allowed hybrids which for balancing issues affected ALL players in that the good skills had to be moved further up in the trees. Because of that it needed to be an all or none. I just don't see how having some people level-synced and others not adversely affects the game. OWPvP maybe but

1) Don't want to be ganked? Don't level-sync. That is a choice that PvPers should have to make because of that style of play.

2) Given how BW ignores the PvP crowd, does anyone really think that is their reason for doing it?

[DarkJediMage]

i am for it to be optional. my main concern is how are they going handle high lvl missions in low lvl planets like the seeds of dread or class stories or open world pvp zones - outlaw's den or the gree event or yearly rakghoul event or the dailies? Edited October 8, 2015 by DarkJediMage

[RavageXX]

For the people saying this level sync is incentive to finally go back to all those old worlds where they skipped over tons of side quests....

 

What is the incentive, exactly? Increased exp awards? Have I missed a dev post explaining that there will be other synced rewards?

[TUXs]

For the people saying this level sync is incentive to finally go back to all those old worlds where they skipped over tons of side quests....

 

What is the incentive, exactly? Increased exp awards? Have I missed a dev post explaining that there will be other synced rewards?

EXACTLY! The problem I have is, I did every quest I saw on my main toon 4 years ago...and none of the quests are repeatable so I have nothing to do by descaling.

 

Well at least Heroics will now be challenging and require a group right? WRONG! They'll only be H2's, meaning I'll just solo them.

 

Level Sync needs to be optional.

[xxIncubixx]

EXACTLY! The problem I have is, I did every quest I saw on my main toon 4 years ago...and none of the quests are repeatable so I have nothing to do by descaling.

 

Well at least Heroics will now be challenging and require a group right? WRONG! They'll only be H2's, meaning I'll just solo them.

 

Level Sync needs to be optional.

 

Why? why do you need to be optional whats the point? why would you go back to those plants for grey mobs? to one shot world bosses or datacrons i guess and one shot players on a pvp server... that takes like 10 minutes lol why would you go back there again?

 

How would you balance that for pvp servers? Super fun getting ganked by a non-synced player "optional".

Edited October 8, 2015 by xxIncubixx