Why scaling should not be optional

[robertthebard]

Back when I first started playing (just before the Legacy Update hit), I had difficulties with some of the fights. What I used to do back then, was to go find some other content to use to level up a little, then come back. If they make scaling non-optional, and instanced non-flashpoint/op content scales regardless, then this method would no longer be an option.

 

It sort of will still be an option; with higher levels comes the potential for better gear and supplies that might make the fight easier, plus more skills to draw from, potentially. It might be harder, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that an experienced player could pull it off.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Well, here's the thing; back then for Red Reaper at 55, I and my comp did suffer a decent chunk of damage from the SV-3 Eradicator. The same thing happened with Kaon HM, my Scorpio was down below 50% HP thanks to the Rakghoul Behemoth by the time it was ended. Honestly, so long as I can cover my repair bills, I'd be happy.

 

Second time I've heard this - anyone have numbers on repair costs if you don't die? I thought you only got em for dieing?

 

 

Instead of scaling back, why go for a positive incentive, rather than a negative one? Keep the old rewards where they are, make them all BoP if not, and raise the rewards for being in a group for group content by 10x (credit loot from enemies, items etc), you'd hope that'd be enough to get more people grouping, especially as when you divide the loot evenly, each member gets 2.5x more than if they solo'ed above level.

 

I've no problem with BOP, it still encourages grouping or actual solo content for making proper income then. Also if there are repairs then sure small mob drops of creds to cover that. My main points are I don't want to see people getting steady income from god mode that puts them off other content and also have god mode in a manner that still encourages people to do the content grouped since in reality it is originally grouped content.

 

Also do away with rolls, give everyone random rewards per boss guaranteed. So you roll for a random loot type, not whether you will get loot or not. if you get gear for your roll it's relevant to your char too. That's a good system.

[branmakmuffin]

Second time I've heard this - anyone have numbers on repair costs if you don't die? I thought you only got em for dieing?

Do a FP (or something). Have you character not die. Go to vendor. Pay repair bills.

[Sarfux]

I don't see any discussion. I just see people defending their opinions and then people doing that thing where they pick out each sentence of the paragraph and then nitpick it with their opinions how they took what the other person said and then it comes full circle again.

 

Why is this thread still going on? We don't even KNOW anything yet.

[Zoom_VI]

It sort of will still be an option; with higher levels comes the potential for better gear and supplies that might make the fight easier, plus more skills to draw from, potentially. It might be harder, but I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that an experienced player could pull it off.

 

This. They aren't going to strip skills, so you will still have all of your lvl 65 stuff, you just won't be invulnerable.

[Sarfux]

This. They aren't going to strip skills, so you will still have all of your lvl 65 stuff, you just won't be invulnerable.

 

Nah. According to some of the conspiracy theorists on the net, this game will all be scaled. No more leveling, all flashpoints will be easy mode. Raiding isn't a priority anymore. Gear won't matter. It will all be cosmetic. TOR will implode and there won't be any more reason to do anything worth while thus no more generating any more money and EA will make SWG 2, with giant 10000x10000 KM worlds which you will be able to actually dehydrate, live in caves, make your own clothes and do absolutely nothing if you wish.

 

At least, that's what I get out of some people here what they want Some conspiracy theorists are a little out there O.O

 

I wouldn't read too much into this.

[Khevar]

I don't see any discussion. I just see people defending their opinions and then people doing that thing where they pick out each sentence of the paragraph and then nitpick it with their opinions how they took what the other person said and then it comes full circle again.

As opposed to the magical unicorn fairyland threads where people argue and someone says: "Good point, I was wrong"?

Edited September 29, 2015 by Khevar

[TUXs]

This. They aren't going to strip skills, so you will still have all of your lvl 65 stuff, you just won't be invulnerable.

What's wrong with wanting to be invulnerable to insignificant filler mobs? I don't want every pigeon I encounter to be a life/death fight. I don't want every mob that agros on me to be able to slow me down or knock me off my freaking mount...we have more than enough delays to doing **** in this game as it is (loading screens).

 

And of course we'd keep our skills and gear, nobody is pretending we wouldn't...but they'd be nerfed versions of those skills. Given this teams brilliant track record with Bolster, something you are familiar with, I can't believe you'd be in favor of this or supporting it in ANY way.

 

IF they implement this, it'll be a mistake of epic proportions. There are too many playstyles players have developed based on how this game has worked for 4 years.

[Zoom_VI]

What's wrong with wanting to be invulnerable to insignificant filler mobs? I don't want every pigeon I encounter to be a life/death fight. I don't want every mob that agros on me to be able to slow me down or knock me off my freaking mount...we have more than enough delays to doing **** in this game as it is (loading screens).

When they keep trying to sell us how impossibru these quests/FPs are for any lesser being, having it trivialized makes no sense.

 

I can't believe you'd be in favor of this or supporting it in ANY way.

As someone who spends a lot of time delving into game design, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't support it.

 

SWTOR uses numerical (and linear) character progression. The problem with this model is that it leads to massive content loss as old content becomes irrelevant as the game progresses. This is a huge developmental fail because it means all of the money spent on developing the old content is basically getting thrown out the window.

It also means that players below endgame have difficulty doing any form of group content because there just aren't enough players in a given level range to support queues.

 

Downbolster is basically a tourniquet on this. It keeps older content relevant thus preventing content loss, but since the high levels are getting lowered it means that lowbies wanting to do content at level have a much larger base of players that they can pull a group from.

 

 

There are too many playstyles players have developed based on how this game has worked for 4 years.

This is like the one viable reason against it. But really this is only because the game didn't launch with downbolster in place. Realistically Bioware is going to have to bite the bullet and do it at some point, and it's better now than later.

[TUXs]

As someone who spends a lot of time delving into game design, I can't see any reason why you wouldn't support it.

 

SWTOR uses numerical (and linear) character progression. The problem with this model is that it leads to massive content loss as old content becomes irrelevant as the game progresses. This is a huge developmental fail because it means all of the money spent on developing the old content is basically getting thrown out the window.

It also means that players below endgame have difficulty doing any form of group content because there just aren't enough players in a given level range to support queues.

 

Downbolster is basically a tourniquet on this. It keeps older content relevant thus preventing content loss, but since the high levels are getting lowered it means that lowbies wanting to do content at level have a much larger base of players that they can pull a group from.

 

This is like the one viable reason against it. But really this is only because the game didn't launch with downbolster in place. Realistically Bioware is going to have to bite the bullet and do it at some point, and it's better now than later.

What old content are you able to repeat Zoom? World bosses? Killing flutter plumes? If class quests were repeatable, sure,I'd see your point...but the content on these leveling planets becomes irrelevant because there's no mechanic in place to repeat ANY of it...your character level is irrelevant. The only thing deleveling does, is it makes the filler crap difficult to get past again...nothing more.

 

I'm fully in favor of having upscaled content that will continue to scale with level increases (FPs and Ops), that's a great move by Bioware and I've been asking for it since our boost to 55...but I'm also in favor of keeping the versions we currently have. Why? Because not everyone is a good player tbh...in fact, plenty of people aren't good at all...I did EV and KP this weekend in PuGs with 15 other people...10 of those players will not have what it takes to do either of those Ops at level...their run through NiM 50 content was the highlight of their gaming experience and by far the most challenging content they've ever done. They aren't bad people or bad players, they simply aren't the type of player who needs to be challenged...they're casual players...good people, listened fine, but they don't have a rotation, they have story gear, they tank, heal and DPS rather than picking a role...they simply want to go along and help, not be expected to do XX on a parser. Leaving the current content in place for them to get SOME exposure to it, should absolutely be allowed.

 

It's the deleveling any time I visit an old location, and removal of current content (50-55 Ops/FPs) that I'm 100% opposed to. That will not help this game in any way.

[jstankaroslo]

I see it as an approach to realistic gameplay. I mean, the klorslugs on Korriban. Or flesh raiders on Tython. If they are so weak, like 20hp, grand masters/sith lord would've wiped them out long ago.

 

Or Balmorran resistance: why are these soldiers weaker then Corellians?

 

Story-wise -that makes no sense. And as story becomes once again the driving factor of our game, IMO this is a good move.

I can live with that. Even when my 2k damage gets shrunk to 250

 

 

The other thing of course is implementation. I hate, hate, hate bolster so I expect that if it goes live in October, it might be reasonable somewhere around Christmas.

IF they introduce this change, I suggest they TEST the feature until their in-laws are satisfied, or so. That means: A LOT MORE THAN OTHER THINGS

Edited September 29, 2015 by jstankaroslo

[Rhyltran]

I see it as an approach to realistic gameplay. I mean, the klorslugs on Korriban. Or flesh raiders on Tython. If they are so weak, like 20hp, grand masters/sith lord would've wiped them out long ago.

 

Or Balmorran resistance: why are these soldiers weaker then Corellians?

 

Story-wise -that makes no sense. And as story becomes once again the driving factor of our game, IMO this is a good move.

I can live with that. Even when my 2k damage gets shrunk to 250

 

 

The other thing of course is implementation. I hate, hate, hate bolster so I expect that if it goes live in October, it might be reasonable somewhere around Christmas.

IF they introduce this change, I suggest they TEST the feature until their in-laws are satisfied, or so. That means: A LOT MORE THAN OTHER THINGS

 

There's Jedi Masters/Sith Lords who can solo armies. The reason why the Flesh Raiders haven't been wiped out is because those Jedi Masters are dealing with those types of Sith Lords and their apprentices. As the Sith Inquisitor alone you are compared to Tulak Horde. Near the end Khem acknowledges you as his equal. You do know what made Tulak Horde so famous is that he soloed an entire army single handedly, right? This means that yes the Inquisitor alone is capable of soloing an army so if he wanted to he could purge the kor slugs from existence but why bother?

Edited September 29, 2015 by Rhyltran

[Frenesi]

Mobs are people too! Support MRM (mob rights movement)! Say NO to invulnerable maniacs, who slaugher innocent NPCs in thousands! Vote for downscaling!

 

Kephess the Undying, president of MRM

[Duniss]

So if you did planetary quests once only thing you can repeat are heroics and wb so there arent plenty of content on those planets anyway especialy whit wb respawn times... and personaly for me you will be outlander only hope of universe and sudenly 3 flashraiders becomes a chalange like when you was padawan not very epic... and if they implent it how would that work will it downgrade me to lvl 36 if planet ranges 36-40? Gear for that lvl green blue purple? Atleast for me creating that kind a system so you can do old heroics and wb looks like waste of time and recources... Edited September 29, 2015 by Duniss

[Transcendent]

What old content are you able to repeat Zoom? *snip* Killing flutter plumes?.

 

I have this achievement!

 

(It's sometimes a nice distraction doing achievements instead of having my arse handed to me in PvP because of a class preference. ) With a planetary scaling? Eh... no... I'll pass. Too many filler mobs to simply focus on one thing at a time.

 

IF they implement this, it'll be a mistake of epic proportions. There are too many playstyles players have developed based on how this game has worked for 4 years.

 

Just this. Scaling (all forms of it) if implemented poorly (and I'm going to take a leap of faith here based on past performances that it will be) will not be a good thing in my personal view. The last 4 years have worked fine, absolutely add an option in there for things like a mentoring system (no objections on that).

 

Key word = option.

 

I don't think anyone is going to object to having it as an option, unless they're looking at things with rose tinted glasses.

[Spamfritter]

I don't like the idea of scaling our effective levels down on planets. Hopefully its a rumor and nothing more. I rarely ever go back to old planets but when I do I like being leveled high enough for the mobs to leave me the hell alone so I can conduct my business and get off the planet.

 

If you want to stop 65's from farming world bosses then you need to give them the debuff that Dreadtooth has. Any players who enter combat with a world boss after another group has gets one shotted. Simple. No need to nerf everyone over it. There are plenty of solutions for dealing with issues like world boss farming without resorting to stupid moves like this.

 

I swear to God BioWare developers don't actually play this *********** game. If they did they wouldn't make have these stupid choices.

[Damask_Rose]

This. They aren't going to strip skills, so you will still have all of your lvl 65 stuff, you just won't be invulnerable.

 

Is that a guess or do you have solid intel? The only game I've played that had a mentoring system, City of Heroes, higher level skills were grayed out so they couldn't be used.

[MSchuyler]

Once again, just like several other concurrent threads, we have people who do not want there to be options for other players. People keep insisting they want to control how other players play. If you are grouping with other players, you have a case. Obviously, you don't want a level 65 in Ops on Dromund Kaas with others who are at Level 13. That makes no sense.

 

But if you're not in some sort of group where that would affect you directly, it is really none of your business. It has nothing to do with "fairness" or "balance" because nothing you do affects me and nothing I do affects you. My "cheevos" (shudder!) are between me and my CPU. WE are not in competition with one another.

 

Options = more diversity

More diversity = greater appeal

Greater appeal = more players

 

I will NEVER dictate to you how to play the game you want to play, so STOP dictating to me how I should play the game. That seems like a win-win to me.

[Duniss]

Those who DO NOT want downscaling are fat nerds e-peeners that loves to one-shot low level players.

 

Guild Wars 2 has it, it works perfectly, not even a single complaint about it.

You want to solo Flahpoints? Go play a single player game and solo the entire game, play Skyrim and Witcher 3, solo the game as you want.

 

Downscaling is good and will bring to the game many possibilities with events, daily areas, special missions, leveling with a lower level friend etc...

Stop the QQ.

I play on pve server so open world pvp have no atraction for me espexialy whit hero engine... devs havent mentioned any events daily areas or special missions only content you can do on planets now are old heroics and wb if they add that sure downscale if they hope people do old heroics and wb only it was just a waste of resources and time on bw part...

[branmakmuffin]

I will NEVER dictate to you how to play the game you want to play, so STOP dictating to me how I should play the game. That seems like a win-win to me.

If they have in fact decided to implement this down-leveling outside of FPs (the only place I have seen where they mention it), it's already too late and you'll just have to deal with it.

 

And if they do implement it in the open world (which I highly doubt), it would make no sense to make it optional in the open world because making it optional would defeat the purpose of putting it in.

Edited September 29, 2015 by branmakmuffin

[Duniss]

I dont think they add downscale to open world story vise imps and republic were defeated by Zakull so ading new stuff to planets should be done in new zones wouldnt make sence imps fightin reps and there zakull npc around too... and bw said they add something new related to zakull to some planets so how would my lvl 65 char would fight zakull on typhon if hes downgraded yo lvl 10? Edited September 29, 2015 by Duniss

[Max_Killjoy]

Those who DO NOT want downscaling are fat nerds e-peeners that loves to one-shot low level players..

 

What are you even talking about? This has nothing to do with PvP.

[Max_Killjoy]

Once again, just like several other concurrent threads, we have people who do not want there to be options for other players. People keep insisting they want to control how other players play. If you are grouping with other players, you have a case. Obviously, you don't want a level 65 in Ops on Dromund Kaas with others who are at Level 13. That makes no sense.

 

But if you're not in some sort of group where that would affect you directly, it is really none of your business. It has nothing to do with "fairness" or "balance" because nothing you do affects me and nothing I do affects you. My "cheevos" (shudder!) are between me and my CPU. WE are not in competition with one another.

 

Options = more diversity

More diversity = greater appeal

Greater appeal = more players

 

I will NEVER dictate to you how to play the game you want to play, so STOP dictating to me how I should play the game. That seems like a win-win to me.

 

WELL SAID, sir. Well said.

[sentientomega]

If they have in fact decided to implement this down-leveling outside of FPs (the only place I have seen where they mention it), it's already too late and you'll just have to deal with it.

 

And if they do implement it in the open world (which I highly doubt), it would make no sense to make it optional in the open world because making it optional would defeat the purpose of putting it in.

 

Okay, is your reasoning "If optional, I never will down-scale, therefore no-one else will."?

 

I have a suggestion, the down-scaler should be a buff icon that hits the instant you come back to a planet, that you can right-click off at any time (like with the White Acute Module) to get back to where you normally were, with down-scaling machines located at rest zones and planetary departure areas for those people who want them. Surprising as it might seem, some will.

 

That's if there IS OW down-scaling...

 

If there is OW scaling of any kind, I'd think it'd be up-scaling, and if there is down-scaling, I'd say they'd be both voluntary.

Edited September 30, 2015 by sentientomega

[Jeweledleah]

Those who DO NOT want downscaling are fat nerds e-peeners that loves to one-shot low level players.

 

Guild Wars 2 has it, it works perfectly, not even a single complaint about it.

You want to solo Flahpoints? Go play a single player game and solo the entire game, play Skyrim and Witcher 3, solo the game as you want.

 

Downscaling is good and will bring to the game many possibilities with events, daily areas, special missions, leveling with a lower level friend etc...

Stop the QQ.

 

like others have said. has nothing to do with pvp. majority of us play on pve servers and the only time I personally have participated in so-called "world pvp" was when my guild was killing commanders for conquest points and frameworks. the only pvp thing about it was that we had to go into enemy base to do so and get flagged i na process, but otherwise, we were still killing npc's that were "gasp" designed to be killed that way.

 

moreover - we want to be able to solo old INSTANCED content among other things.

 

in addition. I'm glad you have mentioned GW2 becasue aside from the fact that GW2 unlike swtor has

 

1. personal loot, so no rolling against other players.

2.. no forced grouping as you get credit for event participation as long as you actualy hit the mobs

aka

3. no unique player tagging.

 

but even with all that? guess what? it STILL SUCKS. it does NOT work perfectly. people just accept it becasue that's how the game shipped. so when they were buying it they KNEW what they were getting into. SWTOR on the other hand? did NOT ship with scaling, so just introducing it 3 years into the game's life? of COURSE people are speaking up.