KyaniteD Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) It's a gift. If you don't like it, throw it out. Not really a gift. It's a reward. And people feel that the effort put into the reward reflects how valued their subscription at this time (=the thing being rewarded) is. I can't really blame them for that logic. Personally, I expected it to be a reskin the moment they named it "duster" and released the artwork. I also expect it not to be fixed and still cause a deformed backside on female characters. They went with the least possible effort here and while - by now - not surprising, it's still disappointing and sad that something that was advertised as special just turns out to be another reskin of a model that already exists in game in 4 variants and 16 skins. Edited September 12, 2015 by KyaniteD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThorgrimLutgen Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 It actually baffles me that anyone expected anything different, given the artwork they released. The first stop on the disappointment train that is KoTFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Everyone was able to obtain it without paying money. I didn't pay money for it. I also am not paying money for the blasters, Niko himself, or early access. So you didn't have to pay to subscribe in order to obtain them? What is this unadvertised method by which you've obtained them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnkiduNineEight Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 So you didn't have to pay to subscribe in order to obtain them? What is this unadvertised method by which you've obtained them? They're either obtuse or stupid. They re never going to admit that IF an item is only available by having an active subscription by such and such a date THEN the only method of obtaining the item requires a purchase. Thus the item 'costs' money. Its been explained multiple times, but they refuse to accept the logic because vaccinations cause autism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 They're either obtuse or stupid. They re never going to admit that IF an item is only available by having an active subscription by such and such a date THEN the only method of obtaining the item requires a purchase. Thus the item 'costs' money. Its been explained multiple times, but they refuse to accept the logic because vaccinations cause autism. "Stupid or obtuse" is a bit harsh. Well, intentionally obtuse perhaps, because in several cases you're dealing with someone who either defends whatever Bioware does no matter what, or just enjoys trolling anyone who has an issue about anything in the game. More likely this -- many people in our culture are so used to the notion of the "free bonus" or "buy 1 get 1 free", with the psychological nudge of "I get something free!", that they never stop to think about the fact that they can't actually just walk in and get the thing for no cost. If you can only obtain something via a cost, then it's not free, no matter what the advertisement said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) So you didn't have to pay to subscribe in order to obtain them? What is this unadvertised method by which you've obtained them? No I'm sorry that is very incorrect. Subscribers didn't pay for anything. When you pay your 15 dollars for your sub, you are paying for obligatory access to the base game, content updates & full features. That's the extent of your contract on the exchange of goods for services. The terms of your contract do not state you are obligated to enter any other entity that you have not purchased access to such as hutt cartel, shadow of revan or kotfe since these are each different game entities. As soon as you log into the game and Bioware has honored the contract by providing you access, your 15 dollars becomes their 15 dollars. It is no longer yours and you have no merit to claim entitlement to it. If they so choose to take their money, finance a new project and provide it as no extra charge to the base access you pay for, then this is indeed free, as it is outside the original contract and you are not obligated to have access at all. Just because you buy a pizza and they use the proceeds from your order to purchase more product doesn't entitle you to a seat at the investors table. It's just a monetary exchange of goods & services. This can be used for the bonus items as well, so I'll just leave this here. It's how economics in our world works. Edited September 12, 2015 by Aeristash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) That's a very long-winded post that has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand. No one is asking for free pizza or a seat on the Pizza Haus board of directors. IF you pay for a subscription at the right time, you get the coat. IF you do not pay for a subscription at the right time, you do not get the coat. Therefore, the coat is not free. The coat is part of what you are paying for when you subscribe during that time period. (Of course, this entire "free" thing is also entirely tangential to the actual questions of whether Bioware was deceptive, intentionally or unintentionally, in their promotion of the subscriber-only gear item being discussed.) Edited September 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSitruc Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 if you didnt realize that you arent getting a unique styled chest piece, just a uniquely named chest piece when this was first announced... then there is really no hope for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alssaran Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) This can be used for the bonus items as well, so I'll just leave this here. It's how economics in our world works. Alright, then let us use that. The first fact in this statement, being that I pay for entry to the base game, is just plain wrong. I do not have to pay anything to enter the base game. In fact, I can play through the entirety of the eight class stories, do PvP and PvE and craft for no money spend at all. I can use CC or a subscription to ease the process and make more available. Credits work just as well though. If you find someone who'd sell you unlocks for under the credit limit, you could literally play this game without paying a dime, up until level 50. The assumption that I pay for access to the base game is wrong. We could also argue that Bioware has used a bait and switch tactic here. Nico Okarr was known as character since the release of Return back in summer 2011. He was completely missing from the base game and the two expansions afterwards. The last time we saw him, and even had a glimpse at what equipment he wore, was during the trailer. When Bioware released the promotional page for KotFE they advertised his gear as part of the subscription reward advertisement. However, at that point we only had the image from Nico Okarr in his old gear. The only indication we had about what Nico Okarr looks like was this: Nico Okarr one Nico Okarr two Both images were around for multiple years and depicted Okarr. As far as I am aware the second image was even part of the promotional website when the subscriber rewards were announced. This image advertised "Be a subscriber at July 31st and Nico Okarr will always have your back!". We had no indication whatever that Nico Okarrs gear had in any way changed from the Return trailer. I'll bet my rear that some people even went to make a long-term subscription. The prospect of having this unique companion with his (back then) unique gear was certainly a sweet deal. Then they went on to change that second image to the version we have today and said: "Well, actually THAT is the duster. Not the one you used to, not the on you were expecting.". They basically took what could've been an unique piece of gear and made it to a rehashed version, effectively crushing it onto the ground and disappointing long term fans who were around when Return was released and remember Nico and his unique cloak. Even the promotional text on the subscriber page is wrong now: Impressive is the only word that describes Nico’s swashbuckling duster; you can be sure that wearing this duster sets you apart from other heroes No, it's not. No, it won't. This cloak is not unique. It is in no way special. I can now use dye modules to get nearly the exact same look without it. It doesn't set you apart from others who are not subscribing. It's avertising speech of course, intentionally overstated. But calling that thing unique is like calling the starting lightsabers unique. It simply isn't. So, in fact I do believe that people who are upset have a reason. Bioware was supposed to show how much they care for subscribers who stay with the game during a long-term content draught. Who trust them that it's worth staying. This should've been rewarded with only unique items. Instead one of the most anticipated items is a simple reskin that took one designer a days work to make. Now they are calling that a "reward" for staying with the game through a long time without content. No, it isn't. It goes to show how much Bioware respects people who stick with this game through the worst. Edited September 12, 2015 by Alssaran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Ya'll do realize that Nico's coat in the trailers was directly styled off of the coats already in the game? Just like how Malcom's assault cannon was a direct copy of in-game cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alssaran Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Ya'll do realize that Nico's coat in the trailers was directly styled off of the coats already in the game? Just like how Malcom's assault cannon was a direct copy of in-game cannons. You mean those incredible cloaks? With edges bigger than my legs, compared to those edges at the front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Yes I do believe if something says free, then it is free as long as I qualify to get it. It's amusing how you keep contradicting yourself (in the same sentence no less), yet still think you have any kind of argument to stand on. High school economics; learn it. If you're young enough that you haven't taken it yet, this can be excused, but you should stop commenting on such things until you understand them. If you are old enough that you have already taken such a class, then you need to take it again because clearly you weren't paying attention. I personally do not see any price value in the subscriber rewards, they are nice cosmetic stuff but as I've said before I pay a sub fee to enjoy unhindered access to the game and forums. So the 30 dollars I pay every two months with a time card is irrelevant to whether or not the value of free fluff takes away from the amount paid for a subscription free in exchange for said freebies. It really doesn't matter whether you want the item or not, or see any value in it. The fact is that you paid for it; your subscription paid for the development and creation of this item. Or do you really think that BW employees just volunteered their time to create this item, or to implement it in the game? Of course not, they were paid for their labor (however little that may have been). Where do you think BW get the funds to pay them? It came from the portion of subscription fees budgeted for game updates and development. The funds used to pay for this item could have been used for something else in it's place, so frankly if you don't care about the item, then you should be even more upset than those who do, because you paid for something you don't even want! No, it is free. It just has conditions on who gets it. You don't have to pay anything extra to get it. Therefore by definition, not free. it would be more accurate to say "no additional cost," but it is certainly not free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) You mean those incredible cloaks? With edges bigger than my legs, compared to those edges at the front? Nope not those. Try this one, or this one. That said the undershirt in the cinematics is different from what they are giving. Edited September 12, 2015 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 That's a very long-winded post that has nothing at all to do with the subject at hand. No one is asking for free pizza or a seat on the Pizza Haus board of directors. It's an analogy. IF you pay for a subscription at the right time, you get the coat. IF you do not pay for a subscription at the right time, you do not get the coat. Therefore, the coat is not free. The coat is part of what you are paying for when you subscribe during that time period. (Of course, this entire "free" thing is also entirely tangential to the actual questions of whether Bioware was deceptive, intentionally or unintentionally, in their promotion of the subscriber-only gear item being discussed.) That's rationalizing. For years the 15 dollars has covered nothing except full access to the full game. Why simply because we're offered an item outside the parameters of that access does the cost now include that too? Because you could get it by subscribing to the game during a certain month as you would normally? If you sign up for a free digital sec key and get the 100 extra bonus cartel coins for being in subscriber status with an active key, are you then saying that you're paying for those cc too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) That's rationalizing. "Rationalizing" is what you and others are doing in trying to manufacture excuses to defend this sort of nonsense on Bioware's part. For years the 15 dollars has covered nothing except full access to the full game. Why simply because we're offered an item outside the parameters of that access does the cost now include that too? Because you could get it by subscribing to the game during a certain month as you would normally? If you sign up for a free digital sec key and get the 100 extra bonus cartel coins for being in subscriber status with an active key, are you then saying that you're paying for those cc too? Sometimes the subscription includes X and Y, sometimes the subscription includes X, Y, and Z. If the only way to get Z is to subscribe, and subscribing costs money, then Z is not free. Z costs money. If a store runs a promo that says "Spend at least $100, get this thing for free!" then the thing isn't really free. Why? Because you had to spend at least $100 to get it. Edited September 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Alright, then let us use that. The first fact in this statement, being that I pay for entry to the base game, is just plain wrong. I do not have to pay anything to enter the base game. In fact, I can play through the entirety of the eight class stories, do PvP and PvE and craft for no money spend at all. I can use CC or a subscription to ease the process and make more available. Credits work just as well though. If you find someone who'd sell you unlocks for under the credit limit, you could literally play this game without paying a dime, up until level 50. The assumption that I pay for access to the base game is wrong. I didn't say it just covered access to the base game, I said "When you pay your 15 dollars for your sub, you are paying for obligatory access to the base game, content updates & full features". Obligatory being the key word here, seeing as free players access is dependent on Biowares good will with no contractual terms to the contrary. Perhaps I simply should've said full access to the game to avoid confusion. Also your portrayal of the restrictions feels a bit like a broad stroke. While you can pve galore, you can only pvp as f2p I think 3 times a week. Same with fp and I believe ops requires the sub or a pass. You only have 1 crafting skill as f2p, 2 as pref & full access as a sub. Hardly any crafting going on with just one skill. Also the credit limit and the fact you need to find one to acquiesce to it says alot about that too. Being f2p is hardly cake & berries. It's a rough trial version if anything. We could also argue that Bioware has used a bait and switch tactic here. Nico Okarr was known as character since the release of Return back in summer 2011. He was completely missing from the base game and the two expansions afterwards. The last time we saw him, and even had a glimpse at what equipment he wore, was during the trailer. When Bioware released the promotional page for KotFE they advertised his gear as part of the subscription reward advertisement. However, at that point we only had the image from Nico Okarr in his old gear. The only indication we had about what Nico Okarr looks like was this: Nico Okarr one Nico Okarr two Both images were around for multiple years and depicted Okarr. As far as I am aware the second image was even part of the promotional website when the subscriber rewards were announced. This image advertised "Be a subscriber at July 31st and Nico Okarr will always have your back!". We had no indication whatever that Nico Okarrs gear had in any way changed from the Return trailer. I'll bet my rear that some people even went to make a long-term subscription. The prospect of having this unique companion with his (back then) unique gear was certainly a sweet deal. Then they went on to change that second image to the version we have today and said: "Well, actually THAT is the duster. Not the one you used to, not the on you were expecting.". They basically took what could've been an unique piece of gear and made it to a rehashed version, effectively crushing it onto the ground and disappointing long term fans who were around when Return was released and remember Nico and his unique cloak. Even the promotional text on the subscriber page is wrong now: Impressive is the only word that describes Nico’s swashbuckling duster; you can be sure that wearing this duster sets you apart from other heroes No, it's not. No, it won't. This cloak is not unique. It is in no way special. I can now use dye modules to get nearly the exact same look without it. It doesn't set you apart from others who are not subscribing. It's avertising speech of course, intentionally overstated. But calling that thing unique is like calling the starting lightsabers unique. It simply isn't. So, in fact I do believe that people who are upset have a reason. Bioware was supposed to show how much they care for subscribers who stay with the game during a long-term content draught. Who trust them that it's worth staying. This should've been rewarded with only unique items. Instead one of the most anticipated items is a simple reskin that took one designer a days work to make. Now they are calling that a "reward" for staying with the game through a long time without content. No, it isn't. It goes to show how much Bioware respects people who stick with this game through the worst. That's entirely right. People had no indication that Nicos gear had changed in five years time and thus they had no right to thrust their blind presumptions of what it would be on top of biowares unhonored promissory list. Bioware never made a statement about what the coat would look like exactly and thus you all (I excuse myself from that 'you' since I'm getting the coat, but I never cared about it.) followed your self conjured images right over the cliff side. The only people to blame are yourselves from getting caught up in your presumptions & running blindly forward with nothing tangible aside from your hope of what was to come. If you ask me, this is a good well deserved lesson for many about not getting facts & putting all their eggs in one basket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) "Rationalizing" is what you and others are doing in trying to manufacture excuses to defend this sort of nonsense on Bioware's part. Sometimes the subscription includes X and Y, sometimes the subscription includes X, Y, and Z. If the only way to get Z is to subscribe, and subscribing costs money, then Z is not free. Z costs money. I can't speak for others, but I'm simply stating centuries old established economic facts. That's simply how the monetary agreement for goods & services work. And again I argue that if Z was not originally part of the contractual exchange for x & y, then it is a foreign entity outside the confines of what is owed you and therefore free. If a store runs a promo that says "Spend at least $100, get this thing for free!" then the thing isn't really free. Why? Because you had to spend at least $100 to get it. That's a blatant omission of the 100 dollar value in items that you got, excluding the item offered at no additional cost to what you would've normally paid. Edited September 12, 2015 by Aeristash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transcendent Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Well, I'm still waiting for the crying at how Niko Okarr's Coat clips through the bottom of the speeder that comes as the next reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) So if a company ran a promotion that said "Win James Bond's car from Goldfinger! Purchase a car from our dealership for a chance to be the winner!", would you have absolutely no problem with it if you bought a car, and your name was drawn... ...and then it turned out to be a Geo Metro painted the same color as the Aston Martin DB5 in the movie, or a plastic toy DB5? Edited September 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staavis_SC Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I'm sure I'm not the only one to say or think this...but I would have much rather had Niko's hat, which has his HAIR EXPOSED than the duster. THAT would have been totally worth it! Oh, and just to point out, the "Niko's Blasters" aren't really his blasters either, since in "Return" he uses the Black Nebulas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeristash Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) So if a company ran a promotion that said "Win James Bond's car from Goldfinger! Purchase a car from our dealership for a chance to be the winner!", would you have absolutely no problem with it if you bought a car, and your name was drawn... ...and then it turned out to be a Geo Metro painted the same color as the Aston Martin DB5 in the movie, or a plastic toy DB5? Of course. I'd be 'fist through wall' enraged before becoming 'lawsuit happy' at the sham. However that's only because I was specifically promised the car from golden finger and thus I would be expecting that car exactly as it looked in the movie. However if the dealership just said "win James bond car", even if they handed me a beetle, I wouldn't be mad as I was just promised a car owned by the James bond trademark. For all I know he drove a beetle during a mission or in his home hours during the eu. Edited September 12, 2015 by Aeristash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 I'm sure I'm not the only one to say or think this...but I would have much rather had Niko's hat, which has his HAIR EXPOSED than the duster. That is never going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) f you sign up for a free digital sec key and get the 100 extra bonus cartel coins for being in subscriber status with an active key, are you then saying that you're paying for those cc too? You're paying, just not with money. In exchange for agreeing to use a security key, they promise 100 CC a month. This is a classic contract. Each promises to do something they are not otherwise legally required to do. Same with the "stay subbed" bonuses. We are not legally obliged to maintain our subscriptions through Oct. 19, so they are offering us additional consideration in exchange for us doing so, that is, the Nico swag. Free means free, it does not mean "buy this and I will throw in this other thing, too." Edited September 12, 2015 by branmakmuffin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) Of course. I'd be 'fist through wall' enraged before becoming 'lawsuit happy' at the sham. However that's only because I was specifically promised the car from golden finger and thus I would be expecting that car exactly as it looked in the movie. However if the dealership just said "win James bond car", even if they handed me a beetle, I wouldn't be mad as I was just promised a car owned by the James bond trademark. For all I know he drove a beetle during a mission or in his home hours during the eu. The only artwork we had of Nico to that point (that I know of) showed him in a specific coat, and people were expecting the specific coat that Nico had always been shown in. Same as they'd be expecting the DB5 from Goldfinger... I don't even care that much, I'm just tired of watching the usual suspects troll and belittle people over what was a reasonable conclusion given the evidence at hand. Edited September 12, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted September 12, 2015 Share Posted September 12, 2015 Well, I'm still waiting for the crying at how Niko Okarr's Coat clips through the bottom of the speeder that comes as the next reward. Oh.. it's coming..... SOON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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