Too many 1-shot mech in NIM ops

[TACeMossie]

Most overrated fight ever

(and doom was a oneshot)

 

Technically it was a 10 million damage hit or so.

 

A 1-shot is 0 damage, and as such can't be resisted. But you CAN roll through doom, or shroud it, and so on.

[Khevar]

Most overrated fight ever

(and doom was a oneshot)

It was "overrated" by a handful of people who, on the first day of release, claimed the fight was "mathematically impossible", argued it to death, and got into nasty insulting matches.

 

One of the complainers was a guy who used to spend time on the forums desperately bragging how easy everything in the the game was. I had a delicious tall glass of schadenfreude as I watched 7 guilds clear that fight before it was nerfed.

[Slowpokeking]

Actually, the amount of one shots depends on how you define it. In my definition a 1-shot mechanic is something that either kills a player or wipes your group instantly and the only way to prevent it is to play the mechanic properly. So I don't consider something that has the capability of killing someone, but can be cheesed by cooldowns, as a 1-shot.

Also, mechanics that push or pull you of a platform or something and kills you basically with fall damage isn't a oneshot in my eyes. Because that's something that isn't specific to a certain encounter, but to the game in general. If you fall down somewhere, you die.

With that in mind, let's see how many each 55 op in NiM has:

 

 

Asation

1) None

2) None

3) Deletion Protocol

4) Nanites, if they run out.

5) Adds and Tentacle Slam in 2nd phase

3 1shots in 5 fights, not that much.

 

S&V

1) None

2) None. Start can be avoided with Phasewalk, so it can be cheesed.

3) Not killing Snipers fast enough

4) Failing the city infiltration.

5) None. Not taking the elevator doesn't count.

6) None

7) The laser beam adds

3 in 7 fights, also not that much

 

DF:

1) NiM twin Attack

2) None

3) Magnet

4) Mines

5) Droids hit by the laser beam, Tentacles laser beams.

4 of 5, quite a lot.

 

DP:

1) None

2) Not jumping down after simplification

3) Not stepping in the past/future circles or standing in the wrong one, failing to kill the boss with 2 seeds, taking to long to plant them(considering this as one mechanic)

4) None

5) Death Marks and Brontes Tentacle laser.

5 in 3 encounters.

 

Overall roughly half of all fights have oneshot mechanics, which isn't much. Some have 2.

 

Let's look at Rav/ToS

Rav:

1) None

2) None

3) Failing to maintain at least 3 consoles

4) Not having a debuff in the last phase

5) Ricochet Shot

Again 3 of 5

 

ToS:

1) None

2) None

3) Getting hit by a rock

4) None

5) HK's kill shot(because falling of the edge and dieing isn't an encounter specific thing, even if the whole encounter revolves around trying to push you off the edge.

2 of 5.

 

So for all 55 and 60 Ops we have 20 one shot mechanics in 32 fights.

 

Now if you subtract everything that can be avoided by simply not standing in stupid(ie right positioning) it's 5 less(TFB Tentacle slam, Grob'thok magnet, brontes' hands in both DF and DP, Lurkers rocks) which would make a total of 15 in 32 fights, so less than half.

 

 

 

 

In regards to oneshots being repetitive, they're not. Because they all work different and pretty much all have a different aproach on how to avoid them. If you simply go by oneshot=oneshot=repetitive then you could also say every boss does damage and it's repetitive...

 

You missed quite a few

 

Dreadguards' kill line and Doom debuff

You can't fail any of the Core phase in OP IX

Corruptor 0's laser

Brontes' Overcharged beam is 1-shot itself

Calphayus's knockback, if you don't swap you die, the seed phase, the 3 crystal phase and last one. There are black orbs to kill in NIM

Raptus' Force execution red circle

 

Also many of these 1 shot mech has to be dealt many times throughout the fight.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[trendiee]

It was "overrated" by a handful of people who, on the first day of release, claimed the fight was "mathematically impossible", argued it to death, and got into nasty insulting matches.

 

One of the complainers was a guy who used to spend time on the forums desperately bragging how easy everything in the the game was. I had a delicious tall glass of schadenfreude as I watched 7 guilds clear that fight before it was nerfed.

 

I more mean the fight itself still being referred to as the hardest fight ever when it really had very simple mechanics and was just a dps check (especially compared to the current ops).

 

The rest of it was really funny as it was happening, though, that's for sure, and I'm sure the hype is why it's still talked about.

[JMagee]

You missed quite a few

 

Dreadguards' kill line and Doom debuff

You can't fail any of the Core phase in OP IX

Corruptor 0's laser

Brontes' Overcharged beam is 1-shot itself

Calphayus's knockback, if you don't swap you die, the seed phase, the 3 crystal phase and last one. There are black orbs to kill in NIM

Raptus' Force execution red circle

 

Also many of these 1 shot mech has to be dealt many times throughout the fight.

 

I think your underlying issue is the following;

You can't handle the mechanics. If I took away the ability of everything in the game to one-shot someone and replaced it with some other effect (stacking damage debuff, stacking armor buff on the boss, -10sec enrage timer, 30k hit instead of one-shot) it's going to have the same effect in the end, a wipe.

 

One shots are immediately unforgiving, if the mechanic is changed that not doing it causes you to die to enrage, is it really any improvement? PvE fights can be very simply boiled down to one sentence, "Do things properly and you win."

 

If they got rid of the Op IX insta-kill color deletion and replaced it "Boss now takes 25% less damage" it has the same effect (assuming a DPS were to die) would that suddenly be OK with you? It's not a 1shot, but if you're doing it at level it will still cause a wipe, in the end, more than likely.

 

You keep repeating that 1-shot mechanics are bad, but never say why. Mechanics are what make HM/NiM enjoyable to some people, and I bet you could find some people that would argue that more mechanics should have more dire consequences if they are failed.

 

Why don't you like them?

Edited September 1, 2015 by JMagee

[Slowpokeking]

I think your underlying issue is the following;

You can't handle the mechanics. If I took away the ability of everything in the game to one-shot someone and replaced it with some other effect (stacking damage debuff, stacking armor buff on the boss, -10sec enrage timer, 30k hit instead of one-shot) it's going to have the same effect in the end, a wipe.

 

One shots are immediately unforgiving, if the mechanic is changed that not doing it causes you to die to enrage, is it really any improvement? PvE fights can be very simply boiled down to one sentence, "Do things properly and you win."

 

If they got rid of the Op IX insta-kill color deletion and replaced it "Boss now takes 25% less damage" it has the same effect (assuming a DPS were to die) would that suddenly be OK with you? It's not a 1shot, but if you're doing it at level it will still cause a wipe, in the end, more than likely.

 

You keep repeating that 1-shot mechanics are bad, but never say why. Mechanics are what make HM/NiM enjoyable to some people, and I bet you could find some people that would argue that more mechanics should have more dire consequences if they are failed.

 

Why don't you like them?

 

I don't have problem with most of these mech at all. I think the whole design could have been better that's all. It doesn't always to be "fail or you die", it could have been "you could survive fail but it's hard to avoid mistakes". I'm not complaining about difficulty, but the variety of design.

 

I didn't say 1-shot mech was bad, I'm saying that overusing it to increase difficulty is bad, same as any kind of mechanics.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[JMagee]

I don't have problem with most of these mech at all. I think the whole design could have been better that's all. It doesn't always to be "fail or you die", it could have been "you could survive fail but it's hard to avoid mistakes". I'm not complaining about difficulty, but the variety of design.

 

I didn't say 1-shot mech was bad, I'm saying that overusing it to increase difficulty is bad, same as any kind of mechanics.

 

OK that's fine. So let's say we remove the one-shot color deletion from Op IX and replace it with a different result (buff/debuff/etc.). How do you balance the difficulty of someone dying vs. some other sort of negative result.

 

The "balance" goal in all of these mechanics is quite simple. Get them right or die. That's how difficulty works in these sorts of things. Do what is asked from you or lose. Changing that edict to "Do what is asked from you or maybe die" is by definition lowering the difficulty.

 

I, and a bunch of other people in this thread, can't wrap my head around how wiping due to an instant kill vs. wiping later in the fight due to a series of failures of mechanics is any different. The only small difference that I can see is that your "non one-shot mechanics" gives more leeway for marginal, overleveled groups to complete the content .

 

A mechanic failure needs to equal out in order for the difficulty to remain. If you're trying to balance a wipe due to a one-shot kill with some other effect, the result still needs to be the same. A wipe.

[shyroman]

I don't have problem with most of these mech at all. I think the whole design could have been better that's all. It doesn't always to be "fail or you die", it could have been "you could survive fail but it's hard to avoid mistakes". I'm not complaining about difficulty, but the variety of design.

 

I didn't say 1-shot mech was bad, I'm saying that overusing it to increase difficulty is bad, same as any kind of mechanics.

 

If it's hard to not fail, but you could survive failing anyway, what will stop everyone from just healing through everything?

[Slowpokeking]

OK that's fine. So let's say we remove the one-shot color deletion from Op IX and replace it with a different result (buff/debuff/etc.). How do you balance the difficulty of someone dying vs. some other sort of negative result.

 

The "balance" goal in all of these mechanics is quite simple. Get them right or die. That's how difficulty works in these sorts of things. Do what is asked from you or lose. Changing that edict to "Do what is asked from you or maybe die" is by definition lowering the difficulty.

 

I, and a bunch of other people in this thread, can't wrap my head around how wiping due to an instant kill vs. wiping later in the fight due to a series of failures of mechanics is any different. The only small difference that I can see is that your "non one-shot mechanics" gives more leeway for marginal, overleveled groups to complete the content .

 

A mechanic failure needs to equal out in order for the difficulty to remain. If you're trying to balance a wipe due to a one-shot kill with some other effect, the result still needs to be the same. A wipe.

 

Isn't it easy? Difficulty is not just about result, it's also about the process, if you can make the result=not 1-shot but make it more difficult to get the right thing done, it doesn't make the fight easier. I don't understand why is it so hard to explain this. Is Brontes' Overcharged Beam hard? Would it be easier if it's no longer 1-shot but didn't go clockwise but much harder to avoid and gives the fingers/hand a buff in next phase if u get hit?

 

Why are you arguing about overleveled group? Most of the 1 shot does not stop overleveled groups. With higher DPS you can make a lot of 1-shot encounter much easier or make the whole fight shorter, thus the boss will use the 1-shot skill less.

[Slowpokeking]

If it's hard to not fail, but you could survive failing anyway, what will stop everyone from just healing through everything?

 

If the result is not just about damage, how could you simply heal through it, especially if you are not overleveled? You sound like only 1-shot will make the fight not faceroll.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[JMagee]

If the result is not just about damage, how could you simply heal through it, especially if you are not overleveled? You sound like only 1-shot will make the fight not faceroll.

 

My argument is this.

 

These mechanics shouldn't be an issue whether they kill you or not. The objective is to handle them properly and never have to worry about dying. If you're concerned about failing the mechanics, practice more. One-shotting is only a threat. If you do something wrong, you should lose. Period.

 

If you don't like being one shot by something, do things the right way. No Brontes' overpower beam is not hard. I don't die from it. So for me, whether it kills me or buffs the fingers if I stand in it is a moot point because it's a not something I do.

 

Again, do it right or die. I'm not interested in the difference between dying to Overpowered Beam or dying 30sec later because I stood in it. To mean it's the same ending. A failure. Time to do it again. If the group was able to get through the fingers even with them buffed (in your example) then your change made the fight easier. It's a simple as that.

Edited September 1, 2015 by JMagee

[Khevar]

I more mean the fight itself still being referred to as the hardest fight ever when it really had very simple mechanics and was just a dps check (especially compared to the current ops).

 

The rest of it was really funny as it was happening, though, that's for sure, and I'm sure the hype is why it's still talked about.

That's a good point, actually. I had a really hard time keeping track of the mechanics (as a dps), mainly because one wrong move in my rotation would pretty much guarantee an enrage. So they seemed really complex at the time.

 

But once I had overgeared the instance, it's definitely not as bad as it first seemed.

[Slowpokeking]

Some correction

 

Asation

1) None

2) Doom and Deathmark

3) Deletion Protocol, Steeping into the wrong circle

4) Nanites, if they run out.

5) Adds in phase 1, Hypergate Beacon if not killed in time, and Tentacle Slam in 2nd phase

It's actually 8 in 4 fights

 

S&V

1) None

2) None. Start can be avoided with Phasewalk, so it can be cheesed.

3) Not killing Snipers fast enough

4) Failing the city infiltration.

5) None. Not taking the elevator doesn't count.

6) None

7) The laser beam adds, is Obliterate 1-sho?

3/4 in 7 fights, yeah not that much

 

DF:

1) NiM twin Attack, Explode Droids

2) Dismantler's debuff

3) Magnet

4) Mines and Megalaser

5) Overcharged beam Droids hit by the laser beam, Tentacles laser beams. You wipe if you don't have a full group alive in the 6 fingers phase.

8 of 5, quite a lot.

 

DP:

1) Dread Tentacle

2) Not jumping down after simplification

3) Fail to swap after knockback, Not stepping in the past/future circles or standing in the wrong one, fail to kill the crystals in time, fail to protect the seeds failing to kill the boss with 2 seeds, taking to long to plant them(considering this as one mechanic), fail to kill the black orb before it reaches boss

4) Force Execution

5) Death Marks and Brontes Tentacle laser, Overcharged beam.

11 in 5 encounters.

 

Other than S&V, yeah there are a lot.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

My argument is this.

 

These mechanics shouldn't be an issue whether they kill you or not. The objective is to handle them properly and never have to worry about dying. If you're concerned about failing the mechanics, practice more. One-shotting is only a threat. If you do something wrong, you should lose. Period.

 

If you don't like being one shot by something, do things the right way. No Brontes' overpower beam is not hard. I don't die from it. So for me, whether it kills me or buffs the fingers if I stand in it is a moot point because it's a not something I do.

 

Again, do it right or die. I'm not interested in the difference between dying to Overpowered Beam or dying 30sec later because I stood in it. To mean it's the same ending. A failure. Time to do it again. If the group was able to get through the fingers even with them buffed (in your example) then your change made the fight easier. It's a simple as that.

 

I don't have problem with handling that, it's not about difficulty. Why are you still arguing it?

 

Yeah a failure, but it proved that not just 1-shot mechanic can make the fight hard and you fail, so what's wrong for saying the ops design shouldn't rely on 1-shot kill too much and ignore other ways?

[Slowpokeking]

Also seriously, if healers can heal through everything that's not 1-shot and get the fight done at level, it's not the fault of the encounter, it's the class skill being overpowered and should be nerfed.

[Slowpokeking]

Everyone's point is that one-shots are part of NiM fights, and they're very avoidable (especially with 5 extra levels), and if the op is having issues it's a fault of their own, not the game devs.

 

Yes it's part of the NIM fights, but it shouldn't be overused.

[trendiee]

If it's hard to not fail, but you could survive failing anyway, what will stop everyone from just healing through everything?

 

Are those really the only two options you see for a fight mechanic? Instakill or easily healed through?

[Slowpokeking]

Are those really the only two options you see for a fight mechanic? Instakill or easily healed through?

 

^, this. Many many people are using this as a fallacy in this thread.

[KeyboardNinja]

Also seriously, if healers can heal through everything that's not 1-shot and get the fight done at level, it's not the fault of the encounter, it's the class skill being overpowered and should be nerfed.

 

It's not as simple as that, unfortunately. It's basically impossible to implement a mechanic which challenges healers at the highest level of skill without being impossible for lower skill healers. Serious face here, there are healers in this game who can solo heal about 2/3rds of HM Revan (and I know another healer who is trying hardcore to solo heal the remaining third, though I doubt it's possible). I'm not the best healer in the game by any stretch of the imagination, and even I've done this! I've lost count of the healers in my guild who are capable of solo healing 7/10 HM. I've solo healed all of Master-Blaster without cheese except the soft enrage (which includes several non-one-shot mechanics specifically designed as heal checks).

 

Imagine if the reaches phase of NiM Dread Masters were just a lot of damage and not an auto kill. I guarantee you that the most popular strat for the highest tier groups would be to just heal through the damage and burn the phase to an end as fast as possible. There isn't even a question. Because the reaches auto-kill, they take that option completely off the table and force the entire raid to execute.

 

Basically, high skill healers make most of the "heal checks" look like a joke. So how do you make mechanics that are threatening for high skill healers and not impossible for lower skill (but still nightmare-tier) healers? The answer is that you can't.

 

This is why one-shot mechanics exist. You want to force the group to deal with the mechanic and not just H2F. One-shot mechanics affect the highest and the lowest skill healers exactly equally. They scale perfectly, not only to skill but also to gear and class differences. So that's why they exist.

Edited September 1, 2015 by KeyboardNinja

[trendiee]

 

I, and a bunch of other people in this thread, can't wrap my head around how wiping due to an instant kill vs. wiping later in the fight due to a series of failures of mechanics is any different. The only small difference that I can see is that your "non one-shot mechanics" gives more leeway for marginal, overleveled groups to complete the content .

For a lot of people it makes fights more interesting. It's the same argument for soft enrages vs hard enrages. Look at master/blaster for a current example. Almost nothing in that fight is a oneshot, but it still manages to be very challenging. Would you prefer a version where the mechanics were "if 3 people are standing in rain of pain the entire group dies to a 0dmg hit"? How about one where "if two people ever get hit by blaster's knockback the group dies"?

 

Oneshot mechanics have a place, but if they get overused it's boring, and most of them could effectively be replaced with more interesting mechanics that have the same purpose (for instance, I would have loved to see a brontes without a lightning beam in the clock phase, and instead have the droids do meaningful damage that builds rapidly, forcing you to kill them all before healers get overwhelmed).

Edited September 1, 2015 by trendiee

[Slowpokeking]

It's not as simple as that, unfortunately. It's basically impossible to implement a mechanic which challenges healers at the highest level of skill without being impossible for lower skill healers. Serious face here, there are healers in this game who can solo heal about 2/3rds of HM Revan (and I know another healer who is trying hardcore to solo heal the remaining third, though I doubt it's possible). I'm not the best healer in the game by any stretch of the imagination, and even I've done this! I've lost count of the healers in my guild who are capable of solo healing 7/10 HM. I've solo healed all of Master-Blaster without cheese except the soft enrage (which includes several non-one-shot mechanics specifically designed as heal checks).

 

Then it means the healer class design was a failure, some rebalance work is required.

 

Imagine if the reaches phase of NiM Dread Masters were just a lot of damage and not an auto kill. I guarantee you that the most popular strat for the highest tier groups would be to just heal through the damage and burn the phase to an end as fast as possible. There isn't even a question. Because the reaches auto-kill, they take that option completely off the table and force the entire raid to execute.

 

What if it's much more difficult to avoid the debuff/damage? What if there were more non-damage related skills? Changing the mech is not just replace 1-shot with some damage, but increase the difficulty of avoiding damage.

 

Basically, high skill healers make most of the "heal checks" look like a joke. So how do you make mechanics that are threatening for high skill healers and not impossible for lower skill (but still nightmare-tier) healers? The answer is that you can't.

 

This is why one-shot mechanics exist. You want to force the group to deal with the mechanic and not just H2F. One-shot mechanics affect the highest and the lowest skill healers exactly equally. They scale perfectly, not only to skill but also to gear and class differences. So that's why they exist.

There are many ways such as healing-debuff and set a limit for the healer's maximum healing dealing in 1 fight. It looks you are saying "healers make the fight easy so the best way is to lower their importance by overusing 1-shot".

 

ONCE again, nobody is saying 1 shot mech shouldn't exist, but it shouldn't be overused. If ops could only rely on 1 shot to keep difficulty, then it means this game's PVE system has some serious problems.

[DrMeth]

You say that they shouldn't be overused. Why not? Is there a particular reason? NiM is meant to be unforgiving. 1 shot mechanics are unforgiving if not executed. I think they like using them in NiM because it increases the difficulty.

[Slowpokeking]

Also, how many are these "Supergood" healers? if it's only like 5% of the whole healer population, I don't think we should take them too seriously and ignore the rest 95%.

[Slowpokeking]

You say that they shouldn't be overused. Why not? Is there a particular reason? NiM is meant to be unforgiving. 1 shot mechanics are unforgiving if not executed. I think they like using them in NiM because it increases the difficulty.

 

Because there are tons of other ways to make the fight hard, rely on 1-shot too much would get the fight design greatly limited?

 

Difficulty is not just about the results,i it can be forgiving if you fail, but at the same time make it very hard to not fail.

[DrMeth]

Because there are tons of other ways to make the fight hard, rely on 1-shot too much would get the fight design greatly limited?

How would it limit the fight design? By not allowing people to screw up mechanics? That is the purpose of making a nightmare difficulty. You screw up, you die. Plain and simple. Perfect execution of mechanics along with tight DPS and healing checks.

 

Difficulty is not just about the results, it can be forgiving if you fail, but at the same time make it very hard to not fail.

This sentence doesn't even make sense to me. It sounds like you want things to be dumbed down and made easier (in your words, forgiving to make mistakes). If you want that, do Hard mode and stop complaining about mechanics design in difficulty you can't handle on tier/when its relevant content.