MASOLIZ Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Not the best, just the easiest no brain way. Kwerty described why they were the best ways, these aren't SM mechanics after all:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Not the best, just the easiest no brain way. Personally, 1-shot mechanics do not bother me, unless they are not under the control of the player (e.g. RNG or bugs). But I have to say, this seems like an extension of an earlier argument about NM operations: Level 55 HM/NIM, which drops 168-186 tier gear, should be Quite challenging to level 55 players with <168 tier gears Not really hard to level 55 players with around 180-186 tier gear. Faceroll to level 60 players with 190-198 tier gear. Whereby you were expecting that these NM operations should be able to be "facerolled" so long as the player has enough gear. The thing about 1-shots, is that they require correct execution of mechanics. It really doesn't matter how much gear you have. At a guess, that's probably one of the reasons they exist. Less punishing mechanics tend to be ignored partly or completely once you have enough gear. By way of example (on a lesser scale), I once ran a Tactical Czerka Labs fighting the Duneclaw. We had an actual tank who was either bored or oblivious, because he never once moved to a barrel. We shouted in chat to no avail. The healer kept us up, the dps killed it. Completely ignoring the mechanics, possible due to being overgeared. If there were any re-tuning of existing NM operations in 4.0, it is more likely it would be in terms of adjustments to HP levels, damage levels or enrage timers. I would hardly expect entire mechanics to be removed. Edited August 31, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Kwerty described why they were the best ways, these aren't SM mechanics after all:rolleyes: There are a lot of ways to make things difficult, it would not be the best to forbid mistakes, a lot of mechanics can increase your chance to make mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Personally, 1-shot mechanics do not bother me, unless they are not under the control of the player (e.g. RNG or bugs). But I have to say, this seems like an extension of an earlier argument about NM operations: Whereby you were expecting that these NM operations should be able to be "facerolled" so long as the player has enough gear. The thing about 1-shots, is that they require correct execution of mechanics. It really doesn't matter how much gear you have. At a guess, that's probably one of the reasons they exist. Less punishing mechanics tend to be ignored partly or completely once you have enough gear. By way of example (on a lesser scale), I once ran a Tactical Czerka Labs fighting the Duneclaw. We had an actual tank who was either bored or oblivious, because he never once moved to a barrel. We shouted in chat to no avail. The healer kept us up, the dps killed it. Completely ignoring the mechanics, possible due to being overgeared. If there were any re-tuning of existing NM operations in 4.0, it is more likely it would be in terms of adjustments to HP levels, damage levels or enrage timers. I would hardly expect entire mechanics to be removed. Actually, gear does matter in a lot of 1 shot mechanics, in Styrak NIM it saves u more time and less snare/knockback required if u have higher DPS, in Brontes HM/NIM, high DPS matters a lot in the 1 shot encounters other than the pairs of Brontes' Reach. Even in encounters like OP IX, higher DPS let u be able to take down the cores/bosses faster thus less deletion protocol. No, I'm saying that NIM should be hard but not totally rely on 1 shot mech. Edited August 31, 2015 by Slowpokeking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) What is this rubbish. Mechanics kill you easily in NiM to force you to do the mechanics and minimise cheating the mechanics. As a result it becomes easier to balance knowing people will do mechanic X or die. It is not the same in easy mode because its meant to be easy. Doing mechanics properly is too hard. Edited August 31, 2015 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) No, I'm saying that NIM should be hard but not totally rely on 1 shot mech. Well then you're in luck! Nightmare Operations don't totally rely on 1-shot mechanics. Edited August 31, 2015 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torvai Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 1-shots in NiM are there to force a group to play certain mechanics how they're intended. What's the problem with it? If they weren't one shot, you could ignore it and simply heal through the damage. If there are so many other ways to achieve this(force people to play certain mechanics), name just one example please. Take any oneshot in the game you like and give an example on how to change it so it isn't a)1-shot and b) can't be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 1-shots in NiM are there to force a group to play certain mechanics how they're intended. What's the problem with it? If they weren't one shot, you could ignore it and simply heal through the damage. If there are so many other ways to achieve this(force people to play certain mechanics), name just one example please. Take any oneshot in the game you like and give an example on how to change it so it isn't a)1-shot and b) can't be ignored. Ohh i'll give it a go: DEATHMARKS (NiM Council) No longer insta-kills Now gives a 90% damage done debuff for 10 minutes if it expires (Player can only do 10% damage if its not cleansed) TADAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torvai Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Ohh i'll give it a go: DEATHMARKS (NiM Council) No longer insta-kills Now gives a 90% damage done debuff for 10 minutes if it expires (Player can only do 10% damage if its not cleansed) TADAA This question was more intended for the OP, but yeah. I thought of something similar. So instead of instantly dieing and causing a wipe due to low dps you don't die and cause a wipe due to low dps? Oh and btw, regarding Revan: There's only one real oneshot mechanic, HK's Kill Shot. Everything else is basically fall damage if you don't follow mechanics. And that's supposed to kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invertioN Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Ohh i'll give it a go: DEATHMARKS (NiM Council) No longer insta-kills Now gives a 90% damage done debuff for 10 minutes if it expires (Player can only do 10% damage if its not cleansed) TADAA But that just makes death mark a simple annoyance which u cannot fail. NiM has always been do it right or fail the pull. What u are suggesting would fit more in story mode. (ok maybe hard mode) I prefer 1 shots they feel more punishing Edited August 31, 2015 by invertioN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torvai Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 But that just makes death mark a simple annoyance which u cannot fail. NiM has always been do it right or fail the pull. What u are suggesting would fit more in story mode. Yes and no. In this case it's basically the same. You loose the dps from that player if you fail to cleanse it. Just that with how it is now, he's dead and with this he'd still live. And you would put something like that in SM? Bads in pugs already struggle to deal enough damage to not let a boss enrage. And you'd want a mechanic like that in SM? So even more can be blamed on the healers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invertioN Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yes and no. In this case it's basically the same. You loose the dps from that player if you fail to cleanse it. Just that with how it is now, he's dead and with this he'd still live. And you would put something like that in SM? Bads in pugs already struggle to deal enough damage to not let a boss enrage. And you'd want a mechanic like that in SM? So even more can be blamed on the healers? Yea I can see your point. At this point I don't care what they put anywhere though because it seems people will always complain something is hard/bad. I'm just waiting for the patch that lets you hold down a button and the game plays itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MASOLIZ Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Yea I can see your point. At this point I don't care what they put anywhere though because it seems people will always complain something is hard/bad. I'm just waiting for the patch that lets you hold down a button and the game plays itself. But but holding down buttons is hard!! See there would still be complaints;) Edited August 31, 2015 by MASOLIZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torvai Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) The thing is simply, if you want a mechanic that is as unforgiving, but doesn't oneshot people if they fail at it, the outcome is the same. So what does it matter? OP is simply complaining because he can't faceroll NiM because there are mechanics you need to follow, as it should be, in NiM. Edited August 31, 2015 by Torvai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benficakungfu Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Now ppl wanna faceroll nims, lol op Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaleijo Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Me and my raid yell about some of these mechanics playing the encounters, especially if there is a lot RNG involved, but don't want them to be changed. At least not the one shot itself, sometimes the RNG component is really nasty though. The thing is if the mechanics allow cheesing or a certain class can avoid them, many raid groups will stack these classes to make it easier. Compared to that i really prefer one shot mechanics, just kill everyone who doesn't play them as intended. For the diversity of the setup one shot mechanics allow much more, than if things that can be cheesed by certain classes. Just look what the advantage of hydraulic override did to group setups in the current content. Of course you could design the mechanics in a way that they can not be cheesed by any class, but on the other hand many classes have unique abilities which define at least some of their gameplay and feeling. Tell them, well against trash you have all this fancy stuff but bosses just ignore everything what makes your class special is not really fun. So the differences between the classes should be kept. There should be strengths and weaknesses balanced to each other. One shot mechanics (at least those which can't be cheesed at all, like ricochet shot) don't influence the balance between the classes, they just kill everyone who fails to play them. While with other mechanics there will always be one or more class that are better able to deal with this or that and influence the usefulness players assign to classes when it comes to group setups. Playing healer for a long time i also experienced that mechanics that didn't insta kill people often were (partly) ignored and to be healed instead of played correctly, the raid just dies later due to enrage or other stuff most of the time. It starts in FPs where the healer is blamed in the Foundry if the dps aren't good enough to kill HK and his droids in time before the damage incoming is too much or if players park themselves in the acid spit from the Matriarch. Or players that aren't able to look at the surroundings of their character and die to the fire of Ortol in Cademimu. DF Draxxus corruption for example, even in SM no one bothered to interrupt and the healers had to compensate for that. So, not using really punishing mechanics often only result in lazyness, a shift of the workload towards another role. Most one shot mechanics don't allow this and the intended role has to do what it is supposed to do or the raid fails. The majority of players is lazy, if things can be avoided or ignored the players tend do just that, either by blaming the healer or building a raid group only out of certain classes that can cheese things. In my opinion good mechanics are really punishing, that you can't ignore them and are clearly designed and recognizable who has to meet certain requirements and what is to do to avoid death. From the perspective of a raid leader looking where the problems are, why there is no further progress i must say, i prefer one shots to anything that just delays the inevitable wipe. If things can be healed through at first or like the suggestion with the damage debuff only delay the inevitable fail and it is much harder to find out what really is going wrong (ok, a debuff would be very obvious too). If players die because of deathmarks, there are clear reasons why they die and we can work on this or change things to overcome the mechanics in the correct way. If an add doesn't fall fast enough and an instakill is triggered our problem is easy to spot. These are clear parameters a raid is able to work with when looking for improvement of their gameplay. If the consequence of fails happens minutes after the fail happened itself, it is much harder to find out what is going wrong and where the group has to improve. And it takes much more time. If deathmarks aren't handled properly the fight just ends with the first time this mechanics arises, if the consequences of fails are delayed we waste our time to just die for sure later because in the end it is the same, we aren't able to meet the requirements for this particular boss fight yet, and depending on how obvious our faults can be spotted we don't even have a clue where to begin our search. One good thing about all the one shot mechanics in game is, most of them are quite clear to recognize and it is easy to find out what to do to not die to them. The rest is practise to get all the other stuff done while doing this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) The thing is simply, if you want a mechanic that is as unforgiving, but doesn't oneshot people if they fail at it, the outcome is the same. So what does it matter? OP is simply complaining because he can't faceroll NiM because there are mechanics you need to follow, as it should be, in NiM. Why does it have to be unforgiving rather than forgiving if u fail but very hard to not fail? What's harder? The current Reach of Brontes or if we make it not 1 shot but activate right after they spawn and leaves a debuff? Don't put words in my mouth. EC NIM doesn't have much 1-shot mech and it was still well designed. Edited August 31, 2015 by Slowpokeking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Now ppl wanna faceroll nims, lol op Now you are twisting my words, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 1-shots in NiM are there to force a group to play certain mechanics how they're intended. What's the problem with it? If they weren't one shot, you could ignore it and simply heal through the damage. If there are so many other ways to achieve this(force people to play certain mechanics), name just one example please. Take any oneshot in the game you like and give an example on how to change it so it isn't a)1-shot and b) can't be ignored. So you are saying that 1-shot mech is the only way to increase difficulty? I don't see any people just stay away and heal through the 6 fingers phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Playing healer for a long time i also experienced that mechanics that didn't insta kill people often were (partly) ignored and to be healed instead of played correctly, the raid just dies later due to enrage or other stuff most of the time. So, not using really punishing mechanics often only result in lazyness, a shift of the workload towards another role. Most one shot mechanics don't allow this and the intended role has to do what it is supposed to do or the raid fails. This actually proves the failure of the design, the punishment doesn't always have to be damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) Don't put words in my mouth. EC NIM doesn't have much 1-shot mech and it was still well designed. "too many" "too much" No hard examples of why it is or isn't appropriate just vagueness. Feeble words by someone who doesn't do NiM content when it's relevant then finds one shot mechanics prevent facerolling it. Why are you finding it difficult. Read a tactics guide. Follow the mechanics. STOP TRYING TO PUG MECHANICS WHICH NEED ORGANISATION. Don't blame the content that thousands before you have cleared. Edited August 31, 2015 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) "too many" "too much" No hard examples of why it is or isn't appropriate just vagueness. Feeble words by someone who doesn't do NiM content when it's relevant then finds one shot mechanics prevent facerolling it. Why are you finding it difficult. Read a tactics guide. Follow the mechanics. STOP TRYING TO PUG MECHANICS WHICH NEED ORGANISATION. Don't blame the content that thousands before you have cleared. For the last time, I don't have much trouble with most of the 1 shot mechanic, some of the non 1-shot mech is tougher to me like the 6 fingers Brontes encounter. I just think it's not wise to overuse such mech. I'm not saying 1 shot should be reduced because it's hard, but there are other methods to make the fight hard. Edited August 31, 2015 by Slowpokeking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 For the last time, I don't have much trouble with most of the 1 shot mechanic, some of the non 1-shot mech is tougher to me like the 6 fingers Brontes encounter. I just think it's not wise to overuse such mech. I'm not saying 1 shot should be reduced because it's hard, but there are other methods to make the fight hard. Again, the vagueness. What is causing you a problem. Why is it a problem. The fight and the mechanic exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 Again, the vagueness. What is causing you a problem. Why is it a problem. The fight and the mechanic exactly. It was overused, thus reduced the fight's variety and limited the fight's design. They even had to recycle mech from old ops to make the toughest encounter in DP council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) It was overused, thus reduced the fight's variety and limited the fight's design. They even had to recycle mech from old ops to make the toughest encounter in DP council. That is not a reply at all, you ignored my question and repeated yourself. What one shot mechanic is causing you a problem and why is it causing you a problem <- this is the question. Simply put, pull up an operation and name the one shot mechanic or more than one which you do not think should be there and why. Edited August 31, 2015 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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