Too many 1-shot mech in NIM ops

[Slowpokeking]

UL:

No tank swaps

Can go 5 DPS with no consequences

3.2k DPS check (Bestia NiM had a similar check at 55!)

Can cheese a major mechanic (Sonic rebound)

Slow stops when adds die.

Can DPS behind rock

Healing check is easy

One class can be OP in that fight with little effort (PT AP)

UL is hard.... Lol

UL is one of the easiest fights in HM. It's much easier than Torque.

 

As for one shots say Hi to Revan

Most of the NIM bosses don't have so many mech. What's so hard for Nefra? Some tank swap and cleanse, move away from droids that's all.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Just think how ppl's opinion of the lvl 55 NiM ops will change when they're scaled up

 

I'm sure there will be some changes on the boss mechanics as well, Rav and ToS HM will still stay at top before new ones come out.

[Khevar]

Bioware has stated that the difficulty of Temple of Sacrifice and The Ravagers in Hard Mode is meant to closely resemble the Nightmare Difficulty of All of the previous Operations

Is this true? Has anyone got a link to some kind of source on this?

[FerkWork]

Is this true? Has anyone got a link to some kind of source on this?

 

Yeah I would like sauce on that too.

[FerkWork]

Most of the NIM bosses don't have so many mech. What's so hard for Nefra? Some tank swap and cleanse, move away from droids that's all.

 

If it's so easy then why are you complaining?

If you are good then you can easily avoid being 1 shotted as there are in your words few mechanics

[Slowpokeking]

If it's so easy then why are you complaining?

If you are good then you can easily avoid being 1 shotted as there are in your words few mechanics

 

I was not talking about difficulty at all. You were keep saying 1 shot mech is the only way to increase difficulty.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[shyroman]

I was not talking about difficulty at all. You were keep saying 1 shot mech is the only way to increase difficulty.

 

1 shot mechanics definitely aren't the only way to increase difficulty, but it is by far the best way. With other mechanics that aren't one shot, there is room for error (aka not as difficult). With one shot mechanics, it requires everyone to be absolutely perfect with that mechanic or else they will die.

 

Here's an example, on draxus, if a mass affliction goes off, it makes it very difficult to stay alive, but it is possible with good healing and dcd use. If that was a one shot mechanic where if a mass affliction goes off, everybody dies instantly, it would make the fight harder because there would be no room for error. A fairly common strat (at least post nim power) was to let mass affliction go off in the phase with double corrupters on each side because it was easier to kill bulwarks and heal through it than to get interrupts off perfectly while dpsing then down hard enough so you don't run out of interrupts.

[Slowpokeking]

1 shot mechanics definitely aren't the only way to increase difficulty, but it is by far the best way. With other mechanics that aren't one shot, there is room for error (aka not as difficult). With one shot mechanics, it requires everyone to be absolutely perfect with that mechanic or else they will die.

 

Here's an example, on draxus, if a mass affliction goes off, it makes it very difficult to stay alive, but it is possible with good healing and dcd use. If that was a one shot mechanic where if a mass affliction goes off, everybody dies instantly, it would make the fight harder because there would be no room for error. A fairly common strat (at least post nim power) was to let mass affliction go off in the phase with double corrupters on each side because it was easier to kill bulwarks and heal through it than to get interrupts off perfectly while dpsing then down hard enough so you don't run out of interrupts.

I disagree.

 

1 shot mechanic brings everything to the extreme way, so it greatly reduced the tactic variety, even ask for "a certain class combo/spec group", which is not good for an ops. A good fight should have room for error so there will be different ways to handle the fight, at the same time maintain its difficulty. Also quite a few 1-shot mech would let the fight depend on luck, AKA Styrak, 1 resist and you fail.

 

Sure overusing 1-shot mech would create some extremely challenging encounter, but it would also dry out the ideas soon. The new ops could only bring new challenge to more and more 1-shot mechanic. And there are limitation for these mechanics, which is why we saw Bioware recycle NIM ops mech in DP Dread Council.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[shyroman]

I disagree.

 

1 shot mechanic brings everything to the extreme way, so it greatly reduced the tactic variety, even ask for "a certain class combo/spec group", which is not good for an ops. A good fight should have room for error so there will be different ways to handle the fight, at the same time maintain its difficulty. Also quite a few 1-shot mech would let the fight depend on luck, AKA Styrak, 1 resist and you fail.

 

Sure overusing 1-shot mech would create some extremely challenging encounter, but it would also dry out the ideas soon. The new ops could only bring new challenge to more and more 1-shot mechanic. And there are limitation for these mechanics, which is why we saw Bioware recycle NIM ops mech in DP Dread Council.

 

A one shot has nothing to do with the creativity (or lake thereof) of mechanics, there are a ton of mechanics that do trivial damage too, but I don't see you complaining about those because those are easy.

 

There isn't a single boss where everyone does the same strategy so I don't see where your getting at where things need to change so that there's more variety, because there already is, it's just that some are easier than other and the easiest one is usually the most popular.

 

Styrak is not an auto fail with one resist, you can either completely eliminate that by letting dps handle it (make it harder on dps) or you can assign each dps to backup a corner in case one does get resisted. A good group will work around rng, a bad group will just fail. There are some cases where rng is so bad it kill them instantly, but that's another conversation.

 

DP council reused mechanics because it combined old bosses, most of the bosses (not calphayus) use some of the same mechanics as they did previously, which makes sense, same bosses=same mechanics.

[Slowpokeking]

A one shot has nothing to do with the creativity (or lake thereof) of mechanics, there are a ton of mechanics that do trivial damage too, but I don't see you complaining about those because those are easy.

 

There isn't a single boss where everyone does the same strategy so I don't see where your getting at where things need to change so that there's more variety, because there already is, it's just that some are easier than other and the easiest one is usually the most popular.

 

Styrak is not an auto fail with one resist, you can either completely eliminate that by letting dps handle it (make it harder on dps) or you can assign each dps to backup a corner in case one does get resisted. A good group will work around rng, a bad group will just fail. There are some cases where rng is so bad it kill them instantly, but that's another conversation.

 

DP council reused mechanics because it combined old bosses, most of the bosses (not calphayus) use some of the same mechanics as they did previously, which makes sense, same bosses=same mechanics.

 

It does if the new ops need to be more difficult than the old ones, thus more and more 1-shot mechanics to be brought on if it's the only way to increase difficulty to Bioware. 1-shot mechanic have much more limitation than mechanic with no 1-shot requirement.

 

It's easy to push the fight to that way, tell me what's the other way to stop wipe during Overcharged Beam other than kill her droids 1 by 1?

 

It is quite a few times, especially when your class combo doesn't have much ranged knockback, plus lag it happens to many groups.

 

So Kephess in TFB should have similar tactic as EC NIM?

Edited August 30, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Here's an example, on draxus, if a mass affliction goes off, it makes it very difficult to stay alive, but it is possible with good healing and dcd use. If that was a one shot mechanic where if a mass affliction goes off, everybody dies instantly, it would make the fight harder because there would be no room for error. A fairly common strat (at least post nim power) was to let mass affliction go off in the phase with double corrupters on each side because it was easier to kill bulwarks and heal through it than to get interrupts off perfectly while dpsing then down hard enough so you don't run out of interrupts.

How about increase the HP/numbers of the Corruptors, make them uninterruptable and force you to take mass affliction more frequently? How is that not more difficult than simply make the mass affliction instant kill if it comes off?

[MASOLIZ]

It does if the new ops need to be more difficult than the old ones, thus more and more 1-shot mechanics to be brought on if it's the only way to increase difficulty to Bioware. 1-shot mechanic have much more limitation than mechanic with no 1-shot requirement.

 

It's easy to push the fight to that way, tell me what's the other way to stop wipe during Overcharged Beam other than kill her droids 1 by 1?

 

It is quite a few times, especially when your class combo doesn't have much ranged knockback, plus lag it happens to many groups.

 

So Kephess in TFB should have similar tactic as EC NIM?

 

Those are technically two different bosses, Warlord Kephess and Kephess the Undying.

 

Edit: And regards to lag, that's part of the rng he was talking about. You could have dbl jugg tanks and 4 snipers, lag could still wipe that group on NiM Styrak

Edited August 30, 2015 by MASOLIZ

[Slowpokeking]

Those are technically two different bosses, Warlord Kephess and Kephess the Undying.

 

Edit: And regards to lag, that's part of the rng he was talking about. You could have dbl jugg tanks and 4 snipers, lag could still wipe that group on NiM Styrak

 

So Dread Council Brontes+Styrak and DF Brontes/S&V Styrak are not different bosses?

 

See, we have specific class/combo to reduce difficulty. I was having bad lag at the boss glad it didn't affect too much.

[shyroman]

It does if the new ops need to be more difficult than the old ones, thus more and more 1-shot mechanics to be brought on if it's the only way to increase difficulty to Bioware. 1-shot mechanic have much more limitation than mechanic with no 1-shot requirement.

 

It's easy to push the fight to that way, tell me what's the other way to stop wipe during Overcharged Beam other than kill her droids 1 by 1?

 

It is quite a few times, especially when your class combo doesn't have much ranged knockback, plus lag it happens to many groups.

 

So Kephess in TFB should have similar tactic as EC NIM?

 

It means to make it more difficult, they have to get more creative.

 

Theoretically, instead of waiting to see which way the beam goes and then all dps going to that side to dps, you could put 2 dps and a tank on each side of dps was high enough (not possible before 3.0 but probably could be now with certain comps). Yes it is significantly easier to go 1 by 1, which is why everyone does that. What I was think of before was 1 shots like ricochet shot. Ones that make you think of how to get past it, instead of a 1 shot that forced you to do a mechanic (like overcharged beam) because they wanted to create a dps check.

 

A combination of maras, pts, and ops would still be able to do chained manifestation despite having the least amount of control. It's much more difficult but not impossible. A bit of lag does not stop abilities from firing, if lag is so bad that abilities aren't registering consistently, then that's not on the game's end.

 

I'll give you that last point, I see it different from a lore point of view. I see the 2 kephesses and 2 different entities even though they're the same thing. The ec one as a conquerer, the tfb one as a reborn slave to the dread masters. The dread masters don't change at all between the council fight and their individual fights besides having died, their mind is exactly the same which cannot be said about kephess.

Edited August 30, 2015 by shyroman

[shyroman]

How about increase the HP/numbers of the Corruptors, make them uninterruptable and force you to take mass affliction more frequently? How is that not more difficult than simply make the mass affliction instant kill if it comes off?

 

That would be changing it from a mechanic to unavoidable damage and simplifying the fight. It makes it so you don't have to think, you just need to kill. Also, the only thing that change would do is make it harder on healing output, which is arguably easier than making healers heal a bit less but doing more mechanics. It would make the fight significantly easier on dps since that's one major mechanic in that fight that they wouldn't have to worry about anymore.

[Slowpokeking]

It means to make it more difficult, they have to get more creative.

 

Theoretically, instead of waiting to see which way the beam goes and then all dps going to that side to dps, you could put 2 dps and a tank on each side of dps was high enough (not possible before 3.0 but probably could be now with certain comps). Yes it is significantly easier to go 1 by 1, which is why everyone does that. What I was think of before was 1 shots like ricochet shot. Ones that make you think of how to get past it, instead of a 1 shot that forced you to do a mechanic (like overcharged beam) because they wanted to create a dps check.

 

A combination of maras, pts, and ops would still be able to do chained manifestation despite having the least amount of control. It's much more difficult but not impossible. A bit of lag does not stop abilities from firing, if lag is so bad that abilities aren't registering consistently, then that's not on the game's end.

 

I'll give you that last point, I see it different from a lore point of view. I see the 2 kephesses and 2 different entities even though they're the same thing. The ec one as a conquerer, the tfb one as a reborn slave to the dread masters. The dread masters don't change at all between the council fight and their individual fights besides having died, their mind is exactly the same which cannot be said about kephess.

 

So they shouldn't overuse 1 shot mechanic to increase difficulty.

 

So it was not doable when it was at level.

 

Yes it's doable but more difficult, why should this fight favor a class combo much more?

 

And Brontes/Styrak were no longer the Dread Masters they were, they were just coming back to add some trouble, shouldn't have been the toughest part of the fight. The Kell Dragon was dead, how was it summoned by Styrak? Brontes' body was gone, where did those fingers come from?

Edited August 30, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

That would be changing it from a mechanic to unavoidable damage and simplifying the fight. It makes it so you don't have to think, you just need to kill. Also, the only thing that change would do is make it harder on healing output, which is arguably easier than making healers heal a bit less but doing more mechanics. It would make the fight significantly easier on dps since that's one major mechanic in that fight that they wouldn't have to worry about anymore.

 

No, it means you have to focus DPS on them asap if they are not interruptable, or you have to do it more frequently if they spawn more often, which wasn't 1 shot but increased your chance to make mistake greatly.

[GhOsTPrOz]

The reason they used the DF and SnV mechanics is because Styrak and Brontes WERE BOTH DREAD MASTERS. It only makes sense they would help the surviving dread masters fight you off, and these mechanics are ment to wipe you if you screw it up. In my guild we have this saying, "Don't be terrible". Sorry if you still can't do 55 content at 60 because you can't comprehend things after 2 or 3 years. I hear seasome street online is looking for new raiders!

[Slowpokeking]

The reason they used the DF and SnV mechanics is because Styrak and Brontes WERE BOTH DREAD MASTERS. It only makes sense they would help the surviving dread masters fight you off, and these mechanics are ment to wipe you if you screw it up. In my guild we have this saying, "Don't be terrible". Sorry if you still can't do 55 content at 60 because you can't comprehend things after 2 or 3 years. I hear seasome street online is looking for new raiders!

 

But Brontes is a ghost now, why would she still have the cybernetic fingers? The Kell Dragon also made little sense.

 

TFB Kephess is still EC Kephess, in both encounter he was the Dread Masters' pawn. Does he have similar mechanic?

[shyroman]

So they shouldn't overuse 1 shot mechanic to increase difficulty.

 

So it was not doable when it was at level.

 

Yes it's doable but more difficult, why should this fight favor a class combo much more?

 

And Brontes/Styrak were no longer the Dread Masters they were, they were just coming back to add some trouble, shouldn't have been the toughest part of the fight. The Kell Dragon was dead, how was it summoned by Styrak? Brontes' body was gone, where did those fingers come from?

 

If one shot mechanics make them more creative, then they should keep using it, ricochet shot was original and difficult, so were the unstable apparitions and heartbeat in revan. I'm excited to see what they think of next.

 

No, it was not doable at level because that one shot was to force you to do the mechanic properly and quickly. If it wasn't a one shot, you'd see what sm people do and just ignore the first add and make the phase trivial except for one spike in damage.

 

Because classes are different, when classes have different abilities, some will perform better than others for each fight. Pts do fantastic on revan but poor on styrak. Snipers do great on underlurker but poor on draxus. Marauders are great for colossal monolith but poor on revan. That's just what happens when there's different classes.

 

Force ghosts can impact the physical world using the force just as much as a living being. And can arguably be stronger.

[Slowpokeking]

If one shot mechanics make them more creative, then they should keep using it, ricochet shot was original and difficult, so were the unstable apparitions and heartbeat in revan. I'm excited to see what they think of next.

 

No, it was not doable at level because that one shot was to force you to do the mechanic properly and quickly. If it wasn't a one shot, you'd see what sm people do and just ignore the first add and make the phase trivial except for one spike in damage.

 

Because classes are different, when classes have different abilities, some will perform better than others for each fight. Pts do fantastic on revan but poor on styrak. Snipers do great on underlurker but poor on draxus. Marauders are great for colossal monolith but poor on revan. That's just what happens when there's different classes.

 

Force ghosts can impact the physical world using the force just as much as a living being. And can arguably be stronger.

 

No, ToS was not accepted well, even Bioware themselves admitted it. I'm not saying 1-shot mech is bad, but it shouldn't be overused to pretty much rely on it to make things hard.

 

So what's wrong for saying 1-shot reduced the tactic variety?

 

But ops should be fair on all classes, different classes should have different ways to handle, but with same difficulty.

 

No, they even made it clear that with Styrak gone, the Dread Masters could not keep the balance with the power anymore. Which means Styrak no longer was part of the Dread Master team and could share their power.

[shyroman]

No, ToS was not accepted well, even Bioware themselves admitted it. I'm not saying 1-shot mech is bad, but it shouldn't be overused to pretty much rely on it to make things hard.

 

So what's wrong for saying 1-shot reduced the tactic variety?

 

But ops should be fair on all classes, different classes should have different ways to handle, but with same difficulty.

 

No, they even made it clear that with Styrak gone, the Dread Masters could not keep the balance with the power anymore. Which means Styrak no longer was part of the Dread Master team and could share their power.

 

Revan HM wasn't accepted well? That's news to me, where'd you find that. Never saw anything about bioware saying Revan HM wasn't good either, especially with there being no more new NiM ops, the difficulty of Revan is where it should be.

 

That mechanic was a bad example anyway, because even without the one shot. There is no tactic variety, even in sm. You kill the guys 1 by 1 no matter what.

 

Nothing is 100% fair when things are different, some classes will be better than others. They can't customize mechanics based on class composition. It doesn't matter what mechanic it is, there will always be classes that are better than others.

 

You are correct, each dread master was significantly weaker than before, but when you combine them all together, they become a very difficult foe. Imagine fighting each of the dread masters individually and they only use the mechanics that they use in the council fight, it would be a cakewalk for all of them. They are all much weaker, but together they are still strong.

[Slowpokeking]

Revan HM wasn't accepted well? That's news to me, where'd you find that. Never saw anything about bioware saying Revan HM wasn't good either, especially with there being no more new NiM ops, the difficulty of Revan is where it should be.

 

That mechanic was a bad example anyway, because even without the one shot. There is no tactic variety, even in sm. You kill the guys 1 by 1 no matter what.

 

Nothing is 100% fair when things are different, some classes will be better than others. They can't customize mechanics based on class composition. It doesn't matter what mechanic it is, there will always be classes that are better than others.

 

You are correct, each dread master was significantly weaker than before, but when you combine them all together, they become a very difficult foe. Imagine fighting each of the dread masters individually and they only use the mechanics that they use in the council fight, it would be a cakewalk for all of them. They are all much weaker, but together they are still strong.

 

I remember they once admitted ToS was too hardcored.

 

Like I said, you have many ways to increase the difficulty, 1 shot is a way but not the only way or the major method to make things hard.

 

They can try to make it, like letting PW have other advantages during other phases of Styrak NIM.

 

Styrak and Brontes were greatly weakened due to their death. You can see in both fights the remaining ones were casting a ritual to keep their essence. But I don't think the Kell Dragon or fingers make much sense. We destroyed her fingers.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[TACeMossie]

They never said ToS was too hard core. Just cause HM Revan is the hardest fight in the game doesn't mean he's over tuned. In fact, I'd argue it isn't even the hardest fight this game saw - that honour goes to the first version of NiM Dread Guards. And yes, I know there weren't any insta-kill mechanics... oh wait hard enrage (GJ bio ware on the initial numbers...)

 

Anyway, the 2 best mechanics for making a fight hard are:

 

1. Tight enrage timer (Ruugar, Revan, NiM Dread Guards, NiM Dread Council)

2. Insta-kill (Brontes, Coratanni, NiM dread council, Revan)

 

Tight enrage timers are for ensuring your DPS aren't bads. Insta-kill are to ensure you actually follow mechanics. In harder difficulties, if the punishment for ignoring mechanics isn't death, then what is the point in doing them?

Edited August 31, 2015 by TACeMossie

[Slowpokeking]

They never said ToS was too hard core. Just cause HM Revan is the hardest fight in the game doesn't mean he's over tuned. In fact, I'd argue it isn't even the hardest fight this game saw - that honour goes to the first version of NiM Dread Guards. And yes, I know there weren't any insta-kill mechanics... oh wait hard enrage (GJ bio ware on the initial numbers...)

 

Anyway, the 2 best mechanics for making a fight hard are:

 

1. Tight enrage timer (Ruugar, Revan, NiM Dread Guards, NiM Dread Council)

2. Insta-kill (Brontes, Coratanni, NiM dread council, Revan)

 

Tight enrage timers are for ensuring your DPS aren't bads. Insta-kill are to ensure you actually follow mechanics. In harder difficulties, if the punishment for ignoring mechanics isn't death, then what is the point in doing them?

Not the best, just the easiest no brain way.