Too many 1-shot mech in NIM ops

[Michka]

So it's a failure of design. May I ask how many healers among the whole population were able to heal everything that's not 1 shot?

 

I would agree that it is a failure of design, yes.

 

And as for how many healers can do that? My answer is this: too many for something that is supposed to be a "nightmare".

[Slowpokeking]

I would agree that it is a failure of design, yes.

 

And as for how many healers can do that? My answer is this: too many for something that is supposed to be a "nightmare".

 

How many?

 

Yes, it is supposed to be nightmare, for level 55s with lower than 180 gear.

[Slowpokeking]

I

It's a new one to me to hear someone use the words "healthy MMO cycle" in reference to SWTOR operations.

 

Actually the 1.0 and 2.0 cycle is quite healthy, unless we use WOW's standards.

[Michka]

How many?

 

Yes, it is supposed to be nightmare, for level 55s with lower than 180 gear.

 

It takes more than a few 1 shot mechanics for something to be "nightmare" worthy, that's exactly my problem with it. There is nothing else to the fights outside of those mechanics, and that's bad design. Those fights were barely nightmare when they were current, and they definitely aren't now. These old nightmare fights (at this point) have no dps check, no healer check, and largely don't require tanks outside of a "taunt" button. If learning the couple mechanics in those fights constitutes a "nightmare" to you at level 60, we will have to agree to disagree on our standard expectations.

[Slowpokeking]

It takes more than a few 1 shot mechanics for something to be "nightmare" worthy, that's exactly my problem with it. There is nothing else to the fights outside of those mechanics, and that's bad design. Those fights were barely nightmare when they were current, and they definitely aren't now. These old nightmare fights (at this point) have no dps check, no healer check, and largely don't require tanks outside of a "taunt" button. If learning the couple mechanics in those fights constitutes a "nightmare" to you at level 60, we will have to agree to disagree on our standard expectations.

 

But there were very few ppl who could do NIM ops at that time, I don't think it's as easy as you have said.

 

So it's a failure of design. Like I said rather than use 1-shot brainlessly, it would be much better to use all kinds of different mech to make a hard encounter. But the problem is that SM and HM came out first, they might not have NIM mech in mind when they design the ops, so they could only add some 1-shot mech that don't allow you to fail anything to make it hard.

 

Maybe that's why they gave up on NIM ops.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Michka]

But there were very few ppl who could do NIM ops at that time, I don't think it's as easy as you have said.

 

So it's a failure of design. Like I said rather than use 1-shot brainlessly, it would be much better to use all kinds of different mech to make a hard encounter. But the problem is that SM and HM came out first, they might not have NIM mech in mind when they design the ops, so they could only add some 1-shot mech that don't allow you to fail anything to make it hard.

 

Maybe that's why they gave up on NIM ops.

 

NiM SnV/TFB were better tuned imo, they weren't all that reliant on one shots for difficulty and actually required you to deal with mechanics in a bunch of different ways, which is probably exactly why many people couldn't do them. I'm sure it's closer to what you want, though I'm not sure why you'd expect old outdated content to give you that. But since you refer specifically to difficulty in reference to 180 gear I figured you meant NiM DF/DP. It's true not many people were able to *complete* them, but tons of guilds were 4/5 or had significant progress in NiM DF. I don't think those ops were adequately "nightmare" then. I wouldn't say reliance on 1 shot mechanics was the reason for it, though. I think it was just generally poor tuning and a design philosophy of only making the last boss a significant "nightmare". The combination of those things results in 1 shots being the major (near exclusive) source of difficulty in those ops, at least in my experience, ya.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Michka

[WiththeForc]

NiM SnV/TFB were better tuned imo, they weren't all that reliant on one shots for difficulty and actually required you to deal with mechanics in a bunch of different ways, which is probably exactly why many people couldn't do them. I'm sure it's closer to what you want, though I'm not sure why you'd expect old outdated content to give you that. But since you refer specifically to difficulty in reference to 180 gear I figured you meant NiM DF/DP. It's true not many people were able to *complete* them, but tons of guilds were 4/5 or had significant progress in NiM DF. I don't think those ops were adequately "nightmare" then. I wouldn't say reliance on 1 shot mechanics was the reason for it, though. I think it was just generally poor tuning and a design philosophy of only making the last boss a significant "nightmare". The combination of those things results in 1 shots being the major (near exclusive) source of difficulty in those ops, at least in my experience, ya.

 

Teh Sorvali commin out of retirement!? Holy hell

[Michka]

Teh Sorvali commin out of retirement!? Holy hell

 

Winkyfaaaaaace ;);)

[Slowpokeking]

NiM SnV/TFB were better tuned imo, they weren't all that reliant on one shots for difficulty and actually required you to deal with mechanics in a bunch of different ways, which is probably exactly why many people couldn't do them. I'm sure it's closer to what you want, though I'm not sure why you'd expect old outdated content to give you that. But since you refer specifically to difficulty in reference to 180 gear I figured you meant NiM DF/DP. It's true not many people were able to *complete* them, but tons of guilds were 4/5 or had significant progress in NiM DF. I don't think those ops were adequately "nightmare" then. I wouldn't say reliance on 1 shot mechanics was the reason for it, though. I think it was just generally poor tuning and a design philosophy of only making the last boss a significant "nightmare". The combination of those things results in 1 shots being the major (near exclusive) source of difficulty in those ops, at least in my experience, ya.

 

NIM SNV didn't rely on 1-shot too much, yeah.

 

Gonna unsub and take a break from the game till KotFE, later.

[Bradypan]

Wait, if you are overgeared, why are you still running it?

 

Because it's easy money: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=817685

 

Also, as others have said, to gear my alts, since nobody likes bringing my Jugg to anything :/

[Slowpokeking]

Because it's easy money: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=817685

 

Also, as others have said, to gear my alts, since nobody likes bringing my Jugg to anything :/

 

So what's wrong for it being easy, when most of your team is badly overgeared and knew the fight well?

[Khevar]

So what's wrong for it being easy, when most of your team is badly overgeared and knew the fight well?

What difference does it make to you? Why is it so important to you that operations be made easy? That rewards from operations become easy to obtain?

 

You've been fighting so hard to make the game easier for over 2 years now. How does this make the game better? Who are you trying to benefit?

Edited September 6, 2015 by Khevar

[FerkWork]

So what's wrong for it being easy, when most of your team is badly overgeared and knew the fight well?

 

Cause it's fun to kill your DPS with Tyrans Fire

 

I'm still perfecting on how to kill them with Raptus. Soon

[Bradypan]

So what's wrong for it being easy, when most of your team is badly overgeared and knew the fight well?

 

Because no one buys easy ops.

 

Kappa

 

But seriously. What's wrong with one of the (former) easiest HM fights in the game dropping better loot than the hardest HM fight in the game, 5 months after over a hundred teams were working on Revan HM and 20 teams successfully down him? That's a pretty difficult question to answer. All I can say is, I'm glad I was able to get at least one pre-nerf kill, if only on a Bounty Hunter. But maybe Revan needs to be nerfed until the Core can be killed before the first set of aberrations even go out. Or they could just give free 300 MHs to everyone for the same effect.

[Bradypan]

Cause it's fun to kill your DPS with Tyrans Fire

 

I'm still perfecting on how to kill them with Raptus. Soon

 

Taunt right before Force Execution, and aim the Execution and subsequent Driving Thrust at the team You could also just fail a few challenges, but the only one you can really throw is the tank one unless you get other people in on it

[Slowpokeking]

Because no one buys easy ops.

 

Being easy to you doesn't mean it should be easy to others.

 

But seriously. What's wrong with one of the (former) easiest HM fights in the game dropping better loot than the hardest HM fight in the game, 5 months after over a hundred teams were working on Revan HM and 20 teams successfully down him? That's a pretty difficult question to answer. All I can say is, I'm glad I was able to get at least one pre-nerf kill, if only on a Bounty Hunter. But maybe Revan needs to be nerfed until the Core can be killed before the first set of aberrations even go out. Or they could just give free 300 MHs to everyone for the same effect.

What does it have to do with 1-shot mech? It's a failure of design, either the loot is good nice or the fight should be reworked.

[Slowpokeking]

What difference does it make to you? Why is it so important to you that operations be made easy? That rewards from operations become easy to obtain?

 

You've been fighting so hard to make the game easier for over 2 years now. How does this make the game better? Who are you trying to benefit?

 

Wait, in this thread, it was you guys who were saying "NO, it should be hard even when you are overleveled and badly overgeared because it's called nightmare, even though it has come out for more than 1 year".

 

As for my point in other threads, let me make it clear. A content's difficulty should match its loot, it's how healthy MMO cycle works. Sure one HM/NIM ops should stay very very hard for people but it doesn't mean it always has to be. New ops should keep come out and make new challenge. At the same time the old ones gets easier and easier with higher gear/level.

 

Why didn't level 55 HM/NIM's difficulty match its loot now? Because 3.0 was a filler cycle, due to KotFE Bioware didn't have much new content to offer so they wanted to keep ppl on old ones for "challenge" but it didn't work out. Ppl are leaving because there is no new content.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Khevar]

Sure one HM/NIM ops should stay very very hard for people but it doesn't mean it always has to be. New ops should keep come out and make new challenge. At the same time the old ones gets easier and easier with higher gear/level.

I wouldn't disagree with you IF WE HAD NEW OPS COMING OUT.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

I wouldn't disagree with you IF WE HAD NEW OPS COMING OUT.

 

So this, this is the main problem:

 

3.0 wasn't a healthy circle, it didn't have much new content coming out.

[TACeMossie]

Well let's put it simply.

 

My raid group is currently 9/10, with the secondary team 6/10 (torque, not commanders)

 

Every Friday we get to doing old content with people not in their normal roll with a mix of the 2 teams.

 

SnV was dragonslayer on the first run with one of us having no experience and most of us having only SM experience

 

TFB was From Beyond with the first run with one without any TFB experience, and 3 without any HM experience beyond Op IX

 

DF would have been Gate crasher, but the last phase is causing trouble. We do have a few wings though. It's not the insta-kill causing problems.

 

And DP hasn't touched NiM since we were 4/5 on tier, but this alt-night old school content run did do 4/5 HM with only 2 DPS and we only pulled a 3rd one in to significantly speed up council

 

TL;DR

Having enough skill to kill HM UL/Torque is enough to kill all the old NiM content (though DP council in NiM hasn't got a verdict yet)

Edited September 6, 2015 by TACeMossie

[FerkWork]

Well let's put it simply.

 

My raid group is currently 9/10, with the secondary team 6/10 (torque, not commanders)

 

Every Friday we get to doing old content with people not in their normal roll with a mix of the 2 teams.

 

SnV was dragonslayer on the first run with one of us having no experience and most of us having only SM experience

 

TFB was From Beyond with the first run with one without any TFB experience, and 3 without any HM experience beyond Op IX

 

DF would have been Gate crasher, but the last phase is causing trouble. We do have a few wings though. It's not the insta-kill causing problems.

 

And DP hasn't touched NiM since we were 4/5 on tier, but this alt-night old school content run did do 4/5 HM with only 2 DPS and we only pulled a 3rd one in to significantly speed up council

 

TL;DR

Having enough skill to kill HM UL/Torque is enough to kill all the old NiM content (though DP council in NiM hasn't got a verdict yet)

 

I've never done Council at level, but from my experience at 60 and from running with those who do those roles and did it at level, the Healing and DPS checks are now trivial. In my experience doing them overleveled the main things you will run into is Raptus kiting and if you do it this way, Bestia kiting. Mostly due to unfortunate lag and registering you in a bad place spot at the wrong time. That and survive phase 2 and avoid being rubber banded into a a reach, just keep Raptus and Bestia not lose you can go full ham on one of them and push to burn phase as you can easily heal through multiple stacks of burn phase and with higher DPS kill them much quicker.

 

TLDR: Lag/Rubberbanding is most likely to kill you

Edited September 6, 2015 by FerkWork

[Slowpokeking]

Well let's put it simply.

 

My raid group is currently 9/10, with the secondary team 6/10 (torque, not commanders)

 

Every Friday we get to doing old content with people not in their normal roll with a mix of the 2 teams.

 

SnV was dragonslayer on the first run with one of us having no experience and most of us having only SM experience

 

TFB was From Beyond with the first run with one without any TFB experience, and 3 without any HM experience beyond Op IX

 

DF would have been Gate crasher, but the last phase is causing trouble. We do have a few wings though. It's not the insta-kill causing problems.

 

And DP hasn't touched NiM since we were 4/5 on tier, but this alt-night old school content run did do 4/5 HM with only 2 DPS and we only pulled a 3rd one in to significantly speed up council

 

TL;DR

Having enough skill to kill HM UL/Torque is enough to kill all the old NiM content (though DP council in NiM hasn't got a verdict yet)

 

But these content don't drop useful gears other than some mount/decor, HM UL/Torque drops top tier gear.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Slowpokeking

[Declan_Vee]

So the gist I'm getting from this thread is that you want older NiM content to get mechanically nerfed to the point where it can be facerolled (more than it already is) only because you're overleveled/geared? At this point the only difference between story and nightmare is the mechanical execution. If there's no penalty for failing them, why bother having them at all?

 

tl;dr I want wings cuz I'm so hardcore that I shouldn't have to worry about execution or awareness in old content.

[TACeMossie]

But these content don't drop useful gears other than some mount/decor, HM UL/Torque drops top tier gear.

 

Actually if you are a Sorc/Sage DPS then NiM DF/DP does drop top tier gear (the old 4-piece set bonus is BiS). On top of that, Kell Dragon gear looks great and those old mounts are awesome as well, so regardless of the uselessness of the drops I'm still after them.

[invertioN]

Actually if you are a Sorc/Sage DPS then NiM DF/DP does drop top tier gear (the old 4-piece set bonus is BiS). On top of that, Kell Dragon gear looks great and those old mounts are awesome as well, so regardless of the uselessness of the drops I'm still after them.

 

U should explain a bit more what kell dragon gear is, he doesn't know because all the 1 shots are in the way.