Kingrami Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Guard should only be allowed if specced into tanking. The reason I am bringing this up, on my server there has been a lot of dps/tank classes that are giving guard while still counted as a dps for solo ranked. This creates an unfair advantage. Jugg classes can still survive quite well doing this. It creates an unfair team make up in solo, grouped is excluded for obvious reasons, and puts one team at a disadvantage. Why not just focus the healer or the guarded so that the off-tank gets hurt? yeah logically that can work with focus swaps and such but it is not working that way as intended. The "offtank" isn't taking more dmg if anything the offtank uses utilities to survive better and also still put out excellent dmg. There are matches where the dps off tank is putting out 100k protections and 200k dmg in not so long match rounds. ( I am not talking about removing taunts, or limiting the current state of taunts, just talking about actual guarding) If hybrids were removed, this shouldn't be an issue, just make it simple, guarding should be allowed if you're in a tank spec not just stance/cylinder/ etc. The matches will then treat a player as a tank for q pops or not. Please see if this is something that can be looked at Devs. And for the community whether you agree or not, please shoot some feedback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eralesa Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Because forcing players to go into a certain spec and not play how they wish to is such a good way to design a game. Such a selfish point of view; nothing you listed has any huge impact on the game in its current state nor ever did. Guardian DPS is still considered to be mediocre compared to assassin, sniper, and sentinel the only qualities they really have are their survivability and even when that is down they are very squishy. I'm assuming you are also complaining about skank-tanking, it's a very good strategy if your team lacks a tank and often times can win games; is it OP though? No. It's difficult to get the amount of focus you need to still do damage while in the tanking stance, your damage suffers but you hope your team can make up for that hopefully and if not you just prolonged the inevitble. Tl;dr: Guardian DPS isn't breaking the game, get over yourself. Just deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Guard should only be allowed if specced into tanking. The reason I am bringing this up, on my server there has been a lot of dps/tank classes that are giving guard while still counted as a dps for solo ranked. This creates an unfair advantage. Jugg classes can still survive quite well doing this. It creates an unfair team make up in solo, grouped is excluded for obvious reasons, and puts one team at a disadvantage. Why not just focus the healer or the guarded so that the off-tank gets hurt? yeah logically that can work with focus swaps and such but it is not working that way as intended. The "offtank" isn't taking more dmg if anything the offtank uses utilities to survive better and also still put out excellent dmg. There are matches where the dps off tank is putting out 100k protections and 200k dmg in not so long match rounds. ( I am not talking about removing taunts, or limiting the current state of taunts, just talking about actual guarding) If hybrids were removed, this shouldn't be an issue, just make it simple, guarding should be allowed if you're in a tank spec not just stance/cylinder/ etc. The matches will then treat a player as a tank for q pops or not. Please see if this is something that can be looked at Devs. And for the community whether you agree or not, please shoot some feedback As guard does not reduce your damage, it is only functioning as an anti-focus mechanic. If the DPS with guard is focused, they won't hold up very well without tank mitigation and if you AoE both the guarder and the guarded, the guarder will take 150% damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Tl;dr: Guardian DPS isn't breaking the game, get over yourself. Just deal with it. in point of fact, they are breaking solo ranked. the ONLY thing soloQ does that is better than regs is to mirror teams based on role. a tank masquerading as a dps breaks that system. if you could ensure that each team had a dps jugg willing to guard and/or with tank gear, then fine. but the reality is that it breaks the only GOOD thing about soloQ. Edited August 20, 2015 by foxmob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake_Chambers Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Because forcing players to go into a certain spec and not play how they wish to is such a good way to design a game. Such a selfish point of view; nothing you listed has any huge impact on the game in its current state nor ever did. Guardian DPS is still considered to be mediocre compared to assassin, sniper, and sentinel the only qualities they really have are their survivability and even when that is down they are very squishy. I'm assuming you are also complaining about skank-tanking, it's a very good strategy if your team lacks a tank and often times can win games; is it OP though? No. It's difficult to get the amount of focus you need to still do damage while in the tanking stance, your damage suffers but you hope your team can make up for that hopefully and if not you just prolonged the inevitble. Tl;dr: Guardian DPS isn't breaking the game, get over yourself. Just deal with it. So if it's not game breaking and actually hurts the team why not restrict it to tanks only? I don't see how it's forcing someone to play the way they don't want to, if anything getting rid of the old skill tree did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) So if it's not game breaking and actually hurts the team why not restrict it to tanks only? I don't see how it's forcing someone to play the way they don't want to, if anything getting rid of the old skill tree did that. Let me see there was the AP in tank cylinger shenagens in S1, there in the veng in tank stance that's been a thing since launch. There is also that thing about how allowing a DPS to guard completely breaks the solo ranked matchmaking. There is no good reason to allow DPS disciplines to use guard. Having guard tied to stance rather than spec is merely a erroneous throwback from the skill tree system. Edited August 20, 2015 by Zoom_VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) As guard does not reduce your damage, it is only functioning as an anti-focus mechanic. If the DPS with guard is focused, they won't hold up very well without tank mitigation and if you AoE both the guarder and the guarded, the guarder will take 150% damage. Hi Jon Snow. You guard someone and you taunt off someone to reduce the damage THEY, the more important target, take. The prime example is a healer. You take damage for them because they are a source of health sustain. By targeting you instead of your guarded target the healer is of course free to sustain both of you. Edited August 20, 2015 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanas Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Let me see there was the AP in tank cylinger shenagens in S1, there in the veng in tank stance that's been a thing since launch. There is also that thing about how allowing a DPS to guard completely breaks the solo ranked matchmaking. There is no good reason to allow DPS disciplines to use guard. Having guard tied to stance rather than spec is merely a erroneous throwback from the skill tree system. There is a reason to keep it. I like it. Its not good enough? To bad. Perhaps they should rework how good it is or the healers but I don't want to lose a tool that I actually like doing. I like protecting people when "**** hits the fan". Its also funny how people have a problem with guard when the leaderboards are flooded with sorcs and vanguards. Yeah, we sure need to nerf guards more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegi Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 There is a reason to keep it. I like it. Its not good enough? To bad. Perhaps they should rework how good it is or the healers but I don't want to lose a tool that I actually like doing. I like protecting people when "**** hits the fan". Its also funny how people have a problem with guard when the leaderboards are flooded with sorcs and vanguards. Yeah, we sure need to nerf guards more. We are NOT saying nerf guard. We are saying leave guard to tank spec ONLY and get rid of the skank tank. If a ranked match ends up 4v4 all dps and one of those dps can change spec and become a defacto tank, that is a potentially HUGE advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vember Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) We are NOT saying nerf guard. I am. I say get rid of it. Taunts are fine, and effective. Taunts and guard are over the top, especially with the ridiculous power of healers in pvp at the moment. Edited August 20, 2015 by Vember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanas Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 We are NOT saying nerf guard. We are saying leave guard to tank spec ONLY and get rid of the skank tank. If a ranked match ends up 4v4 all dps and one of those dps can change spec and become a defacto tank, that is a potentially HUGE advantage. I think you did not read my post. I did not said this discussion is about nerfing guard. I said I don't want it remove from DPS specs since I enjoy protecting people. I said I would rather have guard nerfed then lose a tool for my favorite class (guardian) more so considering how bad they to in ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banderal Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I am. I say get rid of it. Taunts are fine, and effective. Taunts and guard are over the top, especially with the ridiculous power of healers in pvp at the moment. Wait, what? Did I read that right? Didn't you just say "healers are way over powered... so nerf the tank"? (I know that's not strictly what you meant, but it just read that way to me and I though it was ironic.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilmcUgly Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I was just in a wz last night with my sin tank and forgot to change my stance back to darkness (I was chasing bounties) until I tried to guard and it wouldn't let me. I can use the taunts, but not guard unless I'm in the tank stance. Have to try it with my jugg next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briljin Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 There is no good reason to allow DPS disciplines to use guard. Having guard tied to stance rather than spec is merely a erroneous throwback from the skill tree system. For the same reasons they don't restrict healing to healing specs or DPS to DPS builds. It is an ability in the class toolkit and it is up to the players to use it correctly and the opposing players to counter it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 For the same reasons they don't restrict healing to healing specs or DPS to DPS builds. It is an ability in the class toolkit and it is up to the players to use it correctly and the opposing players to counter it. No they get the ability to taunt as part of their toolkit. Guard is the single strongest ability in the game bar none. Heal capable AC are balanced with those heals as part of their defensive toolkit. None of the tank AC where balanced with Guard capability in mind, and bioware has made it abundantly clear in the past that they do not want DPS specs to be tank capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxIncubixx Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Guard (in its current form) , has no place in this type of pvp (8vs8 or 4vs4), and never did, only on world pvp and since that one doesnt exist well... i say make it pve only, and taunts only usable on tank spec, or dps needs an increase of damage across the board, the healing been thrown around + guard is just to much. i saw somewhere someone post on these forums say that "oh you should need 2 dps to kill 1 healer"... thats all fine and dandy buttt what happens if theres a guard? or if theres 2 healers? and what if both have guard and or a tank the swaps guard... you need around 8 + dps. but since dps dont last long without a healer... then theres a problem. Edited August 20, 2015 by xxIncubixx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubikface Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Replace guard on dps with "intercept". Intercept 50% of a friendly target's incoming damage for a short time (10 seconds), however due to not being skilled at defense this results in you being sundered and dazed leaving you with 25% lower incoming healing and 20% lower accuracy for 40 seconds. Cooldown 2 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bredforslaughter Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Using "tank" stance reduces your dps output somewhat. Using a "shield" instead of a generator/focus reduces your dps output. It's a trade-off. Guard is a way to mitigate how much damage an individual character takes in the match, IF the guarding character is within range. So you have to use tactics to peel one away from the other and/or learn to refocus your dps on to the guarding character when their health begins to drop. It may change your target priority in a match, but it isn't as horrible as you are making it out to be. It's not as difficult as you think. It's really just a matter of learning to play against it. At times it may even be a disadvantage to the team trying to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I am. I say get rid of it. Taunts are fine, and effective. Taunts and guard are over the top, especially with the ridiculous power of healers in pvp at the moment. lol no. guard is absolutely essential. the game's balance only works when tank, healer and dps are present in proper proportion (1:1:2). the problem is that neither regs or solo ranked enforce that necessity, either because of skanks (solo) or complete lack of matchmaking (regs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maegi Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I think you did not read my post. I did not said this discussion is about nerfing guard. I said I don't want it remove from DPS specs since I enjoy protecting people. I said I would rather have guard nerfed then lose a tool for my favorite class (guardian) more so considering how bad they to in ranked. You enjoy protecting people... Awesome. Roll tank to do that. Dps is for damage. You already get taunts to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raazmir Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Sure, and while we're at it, remove ALL self healing from dps specs. No instant self heal for sorcs, no madness/hatred leech, no operatives with hots, no instant merc heals. I swear watching people flail around as though THIS...THIS WILL BE THE THING THAT MAKES PVP FUN FOR ME is a weird mix of sad and funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cretinus Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Guard is absolutely fine. It's DPSers who are all terribads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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