Interesting article by a game dev about why they can't be more open to players

[Falensawino]

You never get a second chance at a first impression.

 

So true. But here's the problem.

 

With their near complete silence, our first impressions have been taken out of their hands. Our first impressions are now shaped by the miners, and BioWare has virtually no say in how we interpret the incomplete information the miners give us, since they're not giving us anything to put the miner information into context.

Exactly.

 

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

 

By choosing to focus on hollow hype, Bioware STILL made a first impression.

All this First Impressions talk makes me think TotalBiscuit and youtube first impressionists moved up in the world.

 

TotalBiscuit calls his videos first impressions NOT reviews. Official reviews have embargoes and any joe can make a first impression video any time they want. They're not bound by the same restrictions reviewers have.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Falensawino

[SithKoriandr]

I read it and it seemed to be a "Our game could very well suck and it would be costly to let you know that"

[MeNaCe-NZ]

And in the real world responsible people SAY there was a delay. Or at least those that respect the people they were talking to do that. If this wasn't becoming a pattern I would be much less critical.

 

I actually agree with this. Being that there is a community team and community manager you would think they would be good at actually communicating with the community.

 

Whilst I don't think we should by any means expect communication about what is coming etc. I do expect updates around promised communication like what we got today. Maybe also updates around announcements at conventions etc. like a "Hey folks - here is an update of what was announced at Gamescon" - stuff like that.

 

I've always had this issue with Eric and his team and imo that is seperate from the OP because they aren't devs. There main role as I see it is to work with the community and they are failing at this again.

 

Give them the benefit of the doubt and a large workload with KoTFE but damn how hard is it to post a quick update like today's update each week or at the time you promised updates as to why they are delayed? Even from another country - they have internet you know?

It's like Tait when he first started in his role was super active on the forums etc. with just little posts letting people know things were being looked into etc. wherever possible but this quickly died off to barely any communication at all ( trained by Eric, what can we expect perhaps? )

 

We get these sporadic times when dev posts are fast incoming and they almost always follow a time when something nasty has occurred in game or there has been a really large outcry about how the community team have handled something ( i.e. ravagergate ) where you can just tell someone has had their *** kicked and is trying to improve but it always goes back to how it's been the past few weeks.

 

The problem this time round is many people seem so focused on attacking devs and wanting information NOW NOW NOW that any "powers that be" who do happen to read it just think it's unreasonable and carry on their way thinking things are fine.

Whereas if the outcry were directed at the community team for promising updates and never updating people on why they aren't coming or anything at all I think you would see there "powers that be" take more notice and provide another butt kicking to said community team.

 

In any case let us hope that today's update was the start of things to come and we can get more updates and participation from our community team

[Joesixxpack]

Mike Laidlaw, the creative director for Bioware's Dragon Age series, posted a link in his twitter to an interesting article. The article talks about why game devs can't be more forthcoming and talk about games that they are creating or updates to games.

 

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw 7h7 hours ago If you ever wonder why I'm so often cagey with answers, this covers the many possible reasons:

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too …

 

Ben Kuchara at Polygon made a mistake and made his own article claiming that Mike Laidlaw wrote this article and haters began giving Mr. Laidlaw flack. Mr. Kuchara has since made a retraction and apologized for the mistake.

 

Still, it is an interesting article. I thought that maybe with all the threads complaining about Bioware not telling us more information about the coming expansion it is somewhat relevant to SWTOR. In the comments section of the article a few other game devs have also chimed in on the discussion.

 

#1 & # 2: So BW Austin still hasn't got a handle on these for some reason....

Edited August 19, 2015 by Joesixxpack

[Chembox]

I never said I felt like I was being misled. Maybe I am just a bit more patient than your average gamer, but I can wait till they are *done* making the expansion before I jump down their throats. If you think communication about what may or may not come with the expansion will change anything for you when it happens, you're mistaken. Knowing the companion system is changing is just causing you to stress out, but it isn't changing what they're doing. It's like asking god to let you know which of your real life relatives is going to die next so you can spend more time with them (or at least stop giving them gifts to raise their affection?) etc. - but in a game where you already have done all the conversations and such... there really is no benefit to knowing the future. Really are you going to run more flashpoints, heroics or whatever with your favorite companion if they are definitely going away in October?

 

It's a MMORPG - they change over time. It is the nature of the genre. Sometimes they screw things up royally (I'm sure we all can think of examples) and sometimes you think to yourself "Why didn't they do this for release?" The rest of the time they are just adding content to keep us as customers.

 

That's what they are doing this cycle. They know how the average *paying* customer spends their time, so they are catering to the majority since that is how they make their money. Since they are a business, making money is the goal. They are not here to do anything but turn a profit. It just so happens that you may (or may not) like the product that they produce.

 

Now to come back to your world peace comment; most people on the internet only talk about negative stuff. I know that is normal human nature but that *has* to be a real drag on Mr Musco's desire to communicate "more" with the forum users. Let's face it, he could post exactly what you (the individual) wants, but there would still be a bunch of complainers. Forum users are loud complainers as a group, I mean you're not here to make real life friends you're here to try and modify this game the way you'd like to see it turn out. Mr Musco is definitely in a situation of damned if you do and damned if you don't and I would be completely shocked to hear (from a reliable source) that he doesn't have a *bunch* of restrictions (from BW or Disney) in what he specifically can and cannot say.

 

I don't know how else to say it other than to quote Yoda, "I cannot teach him, he has no patience..."

 

That also works for a TL;DR.

 

Are you done stroking yourself?

Seriously never seen such a pretentious poster compliment themselves so much about how patient, respectable, and mature they are compared to the general user base... If I was a dev, the last person I'd want to have to deal with is people like you.

I like how you hold yourself in such a high regard, it's almost as if you feel you should be rewarded for being so "superior" compared to everyone else.

I think you need to take a break from the game and come back when you are more grounded and accepting of the people you play with. Maybe try participating in these forums (and the game itself) again when you realize how you talk to people in real life is nothing like this alter-super-ego you've created for yourself on here.

But you did make a great entry for the SWTOR cringe thread so thank you and if you can't change (which you won't. I know people like you who play MMOs and they will shrug me off as a toxic player while continuing to build up their delusion that they are the 1%) then keep posting more gold

Edited August 19, 2015 by Chembox

[Rhyltran]

What's your explanation for WoW having far more communication than TOR then?

 

That only started recently. Mostly with the newest expansion. Before then WoW has been very tight lipped but lately it's all on the table. Why? The Draenor expansion made many people return. Subs went up to 10,000,000. Less than a year after the expansion's release it dropped to an all time low of 5,000,000. They lost 50% of their subscribers in less than a year. That's alarming to blizzard. To be fair their 50% is far more than this game has ever had but it's still a lot for their company.

 

Plus blizzard is honestly in a position where they're so far ahead they don't have to worry about things like other companies stealing their ideas etc and the people they do have won't leave because they're so invested in the game. What they want to do is appease those that did leave and entice them into coming back.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Rhyltran

[tahol]

Without taking any stans in debate should BW tell us more or not (I really don't care), I just say this: When I see the name Mike Laidlaw I just walk away. That man has lost all credibility in my eyes. Again, what others think, is their business. This man is a guy who blows hot air and believes in his own BS. People are so used to be lied to they just shrug and are like "well, business and PR-talk, he must mean well". I like to keep people accountable for their talks. With Mike Laidlaw I have decided that I know that he lies when his lips move.

 

I really prefer that BioWare is silent instead of taking the route or DA3 = PR-lies that were so shameless I still can't believe people are OK with it.

[Karkais]

Marvel Heroes is doing good because They Do seem to care More about their Subscribers.

 

Unfortunately this is pure assumption. Marvel heroes is most likely doing good because of the pull of the marvel cinematic universe. They have said it themselves. (or more accurately the CEO)

 

edit: also because at the launch the game was terrible, and they have improved the game tremendously since then.

 

I play marvel heroes too, and enjoy it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Karkais

[BrianDavion]

Revamped PvP progression system - Nothing new for PvP progression from KotFE, draw

 

The last major patch ravamped the PVP progression in SWTOR.

[Senrie]

That only started recently. Mostly with the newest expansion. Before then WoW has been very tight lipped but lately it's all on the table. Why? The Draenor expansion made many people return. Subs went up to 10,000,000. Less than a year after the expansion's release it dropped to an all time low of 5,000,000. They lost 50% of their subscribers in less than a year. That's alarming to blizzard. To be fair their 50% is far more than this game has ever had but it's still a lot for their company.

 

Blizzard's level of communication with WoW has been the way it is now since before LK came out. JDiablos was right to point to Ghostcrawler as the turning point. But even before that their communication was still much higher than TOR's has ever been.

 

I agree with him that it's dipped since GC left...but not by much. And in particular, this is only about information regarding design philosophy. As far as information about what an expansion will offer we've always known well in advance.

[Kurkina]

An interesting article, nothing ground-breaking in there but at least a developer is saying something, albeit about the importance of saying nothing.

 

With regards to BW's perceived silence before KotFE, it has occurred to me that they are quiet because they can be. This game is NOT being marketed towards US, the existing player base. The "story-people" are a captive audience that is for the most part on-board 100% already, and the rest of the advertising is aimed at new players who will get caught up in the hype of this quasi-reboot.

 

The players who actually care about the various features that the developers are not talking about are a small fraction of the intended audience, and to a degree have already been written off by BW for the near future in that there will be no immediate support for new multiplayer content for the foreseeable future. The new players (read intended audience) will take months to get into systems like crafting and the recycled multi-player aspects, so there's no need reveal those things to THEM, it would be information overload.

 

Instead, BW is focusing its advertising on what drew all of US in years ago. The atmosphere and the story. They are trying to start over and begin the cycle anew.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

An interesting article, nothing ground-breaking in there but at least a developer is saying something, albeit about the importance of saying nothing.

 

With regards to BW's perceived silence before KotFE, it has occurred to me that they are quiet because they can be. This game is NOT being marketed towards US, the existing player base. The "story-people" are a captive audience that is for the most part on-board 100% already, and the rest of the advertising is aimed at new players who will get caught up in the hype of this quasi-reboot.

 

The players who actually care about the various features that the developers are not talking about are a small fraction of the intended audience, and to a degree have already been written off by BW for the near future in that there will be no immediate support for new multiplayer content for the foreseeable future. The new players (read intended audience) will take months to get into systems like crafting and the recycled multi-player aspects, so there's no need reveal those things to THEM, it would be information overload.

 

Instead, BW is focusing its advertising on what drew all of US in years ago. The atmosphere and the story. They are trying to start over and begin the cycle anew.

 

Sorry but why are you attempting to speak for everyone else exactly? You might feel that way but I see many changes and overhauls aimed at a large portion of the existing player base or community.

 

It seems to me your whole opinion is based around the lack of "new" multiplayer content but you are trying to garner support for your view by painting everyone with the brush.

 

I could go on but it almost also feels like you're trying a subtle hijack of this thread into another thread about what Bioware are not giving you or doing for you as opposed to the topic at hand which is communication/silence/etc.

 

There are, as you are aware, plenty of threads to express that view.

[Sardorim]

So how can games like Marvels Heroes talk about ideas that are in planning stage; things that they don't know if they can get to work the way they want? Their dev were talking about a gear/skill check for a end game. The only thing that limits what they can share is license agreement with Marvel.

 

Their Dev team post more by lunch than BW dev team post all week. I've had more question I've asked answered by their dev team in 6 months than I have had here since early access. When dev team is part of the community instead of that estranged uncle that only shows up once in a blue moon; they can fail to deliver on an idea because players feel that they actually care about the game.

 

Marvel Heroes promises lots yet rarely delivers.

 

SWTOR is a far more polished game with far better content.

[Max_Killjoy]

SWTOR is a far more polished game with far better content.

 

Ouch.

 

I'll mail Marvel some ointment.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

[ChazDoit]

Mike Laidlaw, the creative director for Bioware's Dragon Age series, posted a link in his twitter to an interesting article. The article talks about why game devs can't be more forthcoming and talk about games that they are creating or updates to games.

 

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw 7h7 hours ago If you ever wonder why I'm so often cagey with answers, this covers the many possible reasons:

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too …

 

Ben Kuchara at Polygon made a mistake and made his own article claiming that Mike Laidlaw wrote this article and haters began giving Mr. Laidlaw flack. Mr. Kuchara has since made a retraction and apologized for the mistake.

Still, it is an interesting article. I thought that maybe with all the threads complaining about Bioware not telling us more information about the coming expansion it is somewhat relevant to SWTOR. In the comments section of the article a few other game devs have also chimed in on the discussion.

 

Im sorry to bring this up, but since It was mentioned by the OP I want to comment on this:

 

I'm not surprised Polygon doing a half assed job at journalism, especially Kuchera that if Im not mistaken said he was no longer interested in gaming months ago, now because of bad reporting he created a confusing situation and caused an inconvenience for Laidlaw.

 

As for the the strategy of being secretive, it depends on what kind of business are you running, you see crowdfunded projects being extremely open and transparent on the development process, even going so far as doing streaming sessions showing how they programmed or animated models, etc.

 

It's really no surprise that a more corporate studio such as EA Bioware has a much more distant relationship with their customers, not to mention that their developers have received tremendous backlash because of games like DA2, the ending of ME3 and some devs were even the victims of cyber-harassment which is never justified no mattar how bad the ending of ME3 was.

 

For a more controlled enviroment like a Cantina Im sure they love to interact with their fans, but online it seems to me they like to keep their distance.

Edited August 19, 2015 by ChazDoit

[Quraswren]

SNIP....

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too …

 

Still, it is an interesting article. .

 

Great article.

 

I've always said I'm a bit happier when a game company keeps their mouth shut more than opens it. If it's not something that 100% going to make it to final product, they can shut up about it because anything else besides 100% will always be up in the air. Telling gamers this is their idea or this is what the hope to do has never been all that interesting and usually turns out to bite everyone in the ***.

 

What's your explanation for WoW having far more communication than TOR then?

 

Because WOW loves the hype train. Telling you things to get you excited, hype the **** out of vaporware while selling you their product at the same time based off of information you are likely to never see.

 

There is nothing amazing about how wow announces information, sells you a pre-order and takes your money off that information but them knowing most of what they said will not happen.

 

Blizzard has said many times they design 6 months to a year in advance. Features not in game didn't suddenly sneak up on them and blizzard using that vaporwave for hype is all business and the gamer can go screw themselves as long you buy the product while being fooled off marketing.

 

So no, blizzard isn't this amazing transparent business that tells you more than anyone else. What they are is an amazing marketing machines that is second to none but like I said above. I'd rather see them Shut their mouth about things unless it's actually happening. Other than that, quit hyping crap when you can't actually produce and then blaming players for believing you after they take our money.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Quraswren

[DarthDymond]

This is a good article that covers a lot of points that have been discussed here on the forums over the years - and which players really should understand when considering a game company's desire to control the release of information about their products.

 

That said, I think it's also important to understand that these concerns the author raises are only factors that should be considered and weighed against the benefits of releasing information (benefits like generating hype / interest, curbing players' reliance on data-mined info that may be faulty or outdated, engendering good will in the player community through a sense of open communication, etc.). Some companies don't always do a perfect job of weighing the pros and the cons in such situations - they might get so risk averse that they treat the mere existence of any downside as an absolute bar on taking action. I don't think BW is quite that bad, but their critics probably have a point when they say there is room for improvement.

Edited August 19, 2015 by DarthDymond

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

It's really no surprise that a more corporate studio such as EA Bioware has a much more distant relationship with their customers, not to mention that their developers have received tremendous backlash because of games like DA2, the ending of ME3 and some devs were even the victims of cyber-harassment which is never justified no mattar how bad the ending of ME3 was.

 

For a more controlled enviroment like a Cantina Im sure they love to interact with their fans, but online it seems to me they like to keep their distance.

 

It wasn't just ME3 devs that have been victims of cyber harassment. One of the members of SWTOR's combat team received threats on his and his family's personal accounts over class changes recently, because he came out and explained why they made the changes they did. One of the Dragon Age 2 writers received death threats on her children over that game, ala this: "And it included graphic threats to kill my children on their way out of school to show them that they should have been aborted at birth rather than have to have me as a mother."

 

I find the lack of information and interaction on the forums disheartening, always have. But I can't place all of the blame on them after seeing how crummy of a place the internet can be. When Bioware alone has so many instances of personal threats and harassment, death threats over the writing in a video game or class changes in an MMO, I can't say I'd be eager to come post on the forums if I was on the Bioware team. I don't think anybody would want to put themselves on that firing line. I'll still hope that we get more information and interaction, of course, but if we don't get it I can recognize that they have valid reasons for it even if it sucks for the rest of us that haven't resorted to the classless behavior that's caused it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[Senrie]

Great article.

 

I've always said I'm a bit happier when a game company keeps their mouth shut more than opens it. If it's not something that 100% going to make it to final product, they can shut up about it because anything else besides 100% will always be up in the air. Telling gamers this is their idea or this is what the hope to do has never been all that interesting and usually turns out to bite everyone in the ***.

 

 

 

Because WOW loves the hype train. Telling you things to get you excited, hype the **** out of vaporware while selling you their product at the same time based off of information you are likely to never see.

 

There is nothing amazing about how wow announces information, sells you a pre-order and takes your money off that information but them knowing most of what they said will not happen.

 

Blizzard has said many times they design 6 months to a year in advance. Features not in game didn't suddenly sneak up on them and blizzard using that vaporwave for hype is all business and the gamer can go screw themselves as long you buy the product while being fooled off marketing.

 

So no, blizzard isn't this amazing transparent business that tells you more than anyone else. What they are is an amazing marketing machines that is second to none but like I said above. I'd rather see them Shut their mouth about things unless it's actually happening. Other than that, quit hyping crap when you can't actually produce and then blaming players for believing you after they take our money.

 

Well, clearly you're one of the stated people in the article who don't know the difference between a promise and a plan, and rage when plans fall short. For those of us who can handle it it's good to know what to look forward to. Or not.

 

Also, their betas last for months and don't have an NDA. If you're buying based on the inclusion of some feature the information is perfectly available to you if you're smart enough to look for it.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Senrie

[TUXs]

Mike Laidlaw, the creative director for Bioware's Dragon Age series, posted a link in his twitter to an interesting article. The article talks about why game devs can't be more forthcoming and talk about games that they are creating or updates to games.

 

Mike Laidlaw ‏@Mike_Laidlaw 7h7 hours ago If you ever wonder why I'm so often cagey with answers, this covers the many possible reasons:

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/126941182591/do-you-ever-feel-like-the-industry-is-too …

 

Ben Kuchara at Polygon made a mistake and made his own article claiming that Mike Laidlaw wrote this article and haters began giving Mr. Laidlaw flack. Mr. Kuchara has since made a retraction and apologized for the mistake.

 

Still, it is an interesting article. I thought that maybe with all the threads complaining about Bioware not telling us more information about the coming expansion it is somewhat relevant to SWTOR. In the comments section of the article a few other game devs have also chimed in on the discussion.

Those are nothing but excuses.

 

#1 - It's the customers fault

#2 - It's the customers fault

#3 - It's the customers fault

#4 - It's the customers fault

 

It's 2015, the "information age"...adjust or change industries. People wanting more information used to be viewed as a POSITIVE thing...these days, it's used to whine about those most interested in your product...unreal.

[Defecter]

#1. You never get a second chance at a first impression

Not saying anything of real value is a first impression. For games, generally a bad one as evidenced by the ****storm going on about for example the companions.

#2. Timing is important

And it's been royally screwed up for this expansion. It ties in with the previous point; an impression has already been made and thus you should also consider the timing of that and not just what happens after the fact.

 

And the line of 'they need a steady drip of information to maintain interest in the product' is just utter bullcrap. It either means there is extremely little to 'drip' to begin with or they are vastly underestimating how much good information can create a hype. Yes, it is true that it's probably unfeasible to dump everything alongside the expansion trailer, but right now there's next to nothing. Taking the word 'drip' a tad too literal I'd say.

 

#3. Game development is malleable, fan expectation is not.

This point I can relatively agree with. To an extend.

 

That being said, the article goes on saying ... saying that since we didn’t EXPLICITLY SAY that we were doing feature A, that means we’re NEVER EVER GOING TO DO feature A and the game is doomed, ... .

 

Now, doesn't that seem like what is happening right now? Now, once again, I'm not saying every idea thrown around between devs should be posted on a publicly available online scrum board, but giving fans and players tangible information besides hearsay, forum warnings for mentioning [REDACTED] ( ) kinda makes it difficult to avoid an upset.

 

There should be a balance between information released and information that is kept private. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. That's a given. But going into either side of the spectrum regarding pre-release information creates more trouble then at least trying to find that balance.

 

That all being said, for this particular game, the community management is horrendous. This fuels the upset more then anything. With proper community involvement, it's possible to both garner proper feedback (which should be of importance to any proper development team) and waylay any upset that might happen. And with community involvement, i don't mean deleting threads out of nowhere, banning people, giving out warnings and maybe a sticky or 2 with copy/paste information.

 

#4. People don’t really understand game development, but think they do

No offense, but that's outdated thinking. Nowadays, there are a lot of people who are knowledgeable about game development or development in general. It might not be at the level of a triple-A game developer, but from what I've seen it's nothing to scoff at either. Instead of avoiding feedback from such people, it should be embraced if only for the simple reason that the players are your customers and customer feedback is simply something that should not be ignored like it so often is.

 

Yes, it is true that what a customer asks for is often described one way but meant in another. But that's where developers come in. Instead of taking the 'easy' way out and ignoring it only to find out you failed miserable upon release and having to fix it, take that feedback, filter out the nonsense, put good feedback onto a post-it, slap it onto a board and brainstorm with it.

 

Unless you enjoy developing in non-agile environments. In which case, work down your checklists like robots, fail and spend a ton of money and time fixing mistakes, unneeded features, etc that all could've been caught beforehand.

 

TL;DR:

 

Blaming customers (which should be the title of said article) instead of working with them always ends badly. Instead, increase community involvement to a level beyond forum police and embrace customer input for the benefit of all involved.

[TUXs]

Blaming customers (which should be the title of said article) instead of working with them always ends badly.

I could not agree more. Great reply (all of it).

[Gokkus]

The reason they dont mention but is probably a part of it as well, is that a lot of people on gaming forums are extremely negative or demanding.

 

There have been threads saying this game is dead if not dying from 2011 on...none of them have been right. People are being ridiculously critical, with devs/support never being allowed to make a mistake without making a huge deal out of it. There are sooo many people who are just spouting 'facts' while not knowing even a quarter of the information needed to make such assumptions. BW CAN NEVER GET IT RIGHT. It is impossible. There will always be unhappy people because the game is simply not for everyone and does not cater to everyones desires.

 

Yes, feedback is important, but self-enititled, demanding and/or doom and gloom threads are pointless and only ruin that which could have been a decent discussion.

 

Look at the Nico Okar thread for instance. Yes he could have easily looked up that he would not get the companion yet but come one....half a dozen pages of flaming is not really helping the situation. Anonymity makes people behave a lot worse.

[ImmortalLowlife]

(snip)

 

TL;DR:

Blaming customers (which should be the title of said article) instead of working with them always ends badly. Instead, increase community involvement to a level beyond forum police and embrace customer input for the benefit of all involved.

 

Quoted for truth.....

[Technohic]

they need a steady drip of information to maintain interest in the product,

 

Think we need a drip. The KOTFE stuff seems to be dry.