stephenalandavie Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 if it wen't for the animations - I'd be playin' it right now Lol you are comparing the burst of a pt to op? You drunk?. Pt burst is second to none compared to op. For starters pt burst is on demand practically where as op relies on set bonus and crits. You lose any credibility when playing a PT. Power tech burst should be lowered if anything let's discuss that shall we?. The only place roll is an issue is hurt ball with the fire pits and acid pits. Let's get hold the line sorted before you moan about roll. Pt had a pull, hold the line. Immense burst and one spec has a leap to. If anything that class needs looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 He said it SHOULD be available for dps, too and make the pull tank-only. Read the post first, dude No, PTs are too squishy to be a charge in class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrilian Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Lol you are comparing the burst of a pt to op? You drunk?. Pt burst is second to none compared to op. For starters pt burst is on demand practically where as op relies on set bonus and crits. You lose any credibility when playing a PT. Power tech burst should be lowered if anything let's discuss that shall we?. The only place roll is an issue is hurt ball with the fire pits and acid pits. Let's get hold the line sorted before you moan about roll. Pt had a pull, hold the line. Immense burst and one spec has a leap to. If anything that class needs looking at. wow, the "nerfPTplease" train is here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 wow, the "nerfPTplease" train is here Its because people are pressuring about operatives when I think most will agree that Sorc, PT, and Sin should probably be in front of them in line. That's not to say anything really needs nerfed or not; maybe it does, or maybe it doesn't; its just the pecking order as I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 wow, the "nerfPTplease" train is here Because pyro is too strong, plz nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrilian Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Because pyro is too strong, plz nerf. How about we give pyro the operative roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elusive_Thing Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 He said it SHOULD be available for dps, too and make the pull tank-only. Read the post first, dude Oh dear, you are absolutely correct. Drink coffee, then type. I should remember that rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryuku-sama Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 And HOTS on yourself, being immune while waiting for cooldowns. It's like the undying rage every few seconds with bugged animation. For a class with range and PT-power kind of burst+offheals. I was mainly talking about the REDUCING DAMGE OUTPUT DURING ROLL. But lets talk about everything you said. Letting HoTs and cooldowns tick isn't something unique. Every class with decent kiting uility (which is everything but Warrior) can. Sorc can root you to death than Force Speed away. Merc can slow you and buy themselves some time. Sniper can root, roll and kite away. PT have so much kiting tools along Super-HO it's not even funny. Sin can root you (or mezz you) and control range. All these classes can control engagement range with CC's AND movement buffs. Only Warriors don't have this option. They are in-your-face classes, unable to gain range effectively... ANd that's not even true. Jugg can easily gain range with Intercede. And Mara can Force Camo. So what do Ops have? Leth has nothing. No root without Pin Down while every other class has AT LEAST one root, knockback or pull baseline. Concealment has Crippling Slice which is only a poor ersion of Low Slash. And unlike Low Slash, Crippling Slice isn't designed to be a defensive/kiting root as well as a counter-kiting tool, but only as a purely offensive root. Second, Concealment (the only immunity roll is theirs) has ABSOLUTELY NO RANGE. Backstab? 4m, directionnal requirement. Veiled Strike? 4m. Lacerate?? 4m. Concealment is a pure melee range with only one decent 10m ability. Volatile Substance. And PT-like burst??? Yes. During the opener or whenever the 6p is up. Else AP has way more burst and it is way easier to plan and control. Leth has even less control on its burst since it needs 4-5 GCD before being avaible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) How about we give pyro the operative roll? I wouldn't mind seeing the weaker PT have some sort of target-less jet pack leap. Think it would be cool and I don't even play my VG. Pyro using that more would feel very Star Warsy to me. Edited July 21, 2015 by Technohic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrilian Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I was mainly talking about the REDUCING DAMGE OUTPUT DURING ROLL. But lets talk about everything you said. Letting HoTs and cooldowns tick isn't something unique. Every class with decent kiting uility (which is everything but Warrior) can. Sorc can root you to death than Force Speed away. Merc can slow you and buy themselves some time. Sniper can root, roll and kite away. PT have so much kiting tools along Super-HO it's not even funny. Sin can root you (or mezz you) and control range. All these classes can control engagement range with CC's AND movement buffs. Only Warriors don't have this option. They are in-your-face classes, unable to gain range effectively... ANd that's not even true. Jugg can easily gain range with Intercede. And Mara can Force Camo. So what do Ops have? Leth has nothing. No root without Pin Down while every other class has AT LEAST one root, knockback or pull baseline. Concealment has Crippling Slice which is only a poor ersion of Low Slash. And unlike Low Slash, Crippling Slice isn't designed to be a defensive/kiting root as well as a counter-kiting tool, but only as a purely offensive root. Second, Concealment (the only immunity roll is theirs) has ABSOLUTELY NO RANGE. Backstab? 4m, directionnal requirement. Veiled Strike? 4m. Lacerate?? 4m. Concealment is a pure melee range with only one decent 10m ability. Volatile Substance. And PT-like burst??? Yes. During the opener or whenever the 6p is up. Else AP has way more burst and it is way easier to plan and control. Leth has even less control on its burst since it needs 4-5 GCD before being avaible. Well Sneak 50% ms buff for movement, i dont' see the problem combined with roll, grenades and autoshots. Low range is ok aslong as you've got off-heals. It's the constant immunity - that's the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 How about we give pyro the operative roll? Bahahahahahahahaha! My character would get his face stuck in the ground considering how heavy his gear is . It would be more like ostrich roll :D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I wouldn't mind seeing the weaker PT have some sort of target-less jet pack leap. Think it would be cool and I don't even play my VG. Pyro using that more would feel very Star Warsy to me. He could launch over the enemy, setting him ablaze! Or it could be a turn and launch away, so the plasmatech version could cover the opponent in plasma goodenss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 He said it SHOULD be available for dps, too and make the pull tank-only. Read the post first, dude No thanks....I like pulling the victim AWAY from the mob of red name tags, not me leaping to my death. Though I suppose for pve it would make a bit more sense to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxmob Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Its because people are pressuring about operatives when I think most will agree that Sorc, PT, and Sin should probably be in front of them in line. That's not to say anything really needs nerfed or not; maybe it does, or maybe it doesn't; its just the pecking order as I see it. in the right hands, I think the sin is by far the most impossible to manage. sorcs are a clear second, well ahead of PT. that's just based on my server, but even the really good APs on my server can be focused down fairly quickly. none, that I have seen, are skanks, which leads me to... I'm curious how many of those PTs are putting on tank gear and skanking. maybe it's because I have so little time on AP in ranked, but the burst is easy. the survivability is not. it's right on par with mercs. yes, it's a little better, but that's literally "a little better." I would say they have slightly better escapes (better HO and carbonize vs. punt). just like the merc, every utility choice I make is about survivability cuz I know I can't break focus or get out of combat. afaict, their dcds did not scale with the "haves" from 2.0 to 3.0. I used to be able to pop HO, rush in and pull someone, then roll dcds. now I kind of pray for a sin or a jugg to start the fight so that the other team can't focus me down and burn all my CDs on the way in. a simplish fix might just be to increase the healing output of SC to make up for the side nerf to survivability that fixing the ICD had on them. as for op roll. I have noticed that (in regs) even average skilled ops have figured out how to use roll to mitigate burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) in the right hands, I think the sin is by far the most impossible to manage. sorcs are a clear second, well ahead of PT. that's just based on my server, but even the really good APs on my server can be focused down fairly quickly. none, that I have seen, are skanks, which leads me to... I'm curious how many of those PTs are putting on tank gear and skanking. maybe it's because I have so little time on AP in ranked, but the burst is easy. the survivability is not. it's right on par with mercs. yes, it's a little better, but that's literally "a little better." I would say they have slightly better escapes (better HO and carbonize vs. punt). just like the merc, every utility choice I make is about survivability cuz I know I can't break focus or get out of combat. afaict, their dcds did not scale with the "haves" from 2.0 to 3.0. I used to be able to pop HO, rush in and pull someone, then roll dcds. now I kind of pray for a sin or a jugg to start the fight so that the other team can't focus me down and burn all my CDs on the way in. a simplish fix might just be to increase the healing output of SC to make up for the side nerf to survivability that fixing the ICD had on them. as for op roll. I have noticed that (in regs) even average skilled ops have figured out how to use roll to mitigate burst. Yeah, i didn't mean that specific order. Waiting to see what DOT sins look like post patch but seems like it is just a minor adjustment there and I have often felt that PT is OK, if I can stay away from their burst. Sorc I might be a little bitter that my slinger lost being able to purge DOTs every now and then with the idea that it would be stealth only, yet they get that as well as the ability to quite literally heal to full. Not sure, but the only class I seem to be able to use to survive any of these oddly enough is operative which I probably would put right behind PT. (not the bad spec) As fa as operative and the average skilled ones figuring out how to use roll to mitigate burst; thats probably about where I fit in. For all the clamoring I heard of the class being hard to play, it really isn't at a basic level including the roll. But it does take a really good one to do that while killing a target among enemies and I have seen good ones really perform well. I'm more of one that is able to use the roll to troll and avoid damage either to delay or just save myself because I missed my window to kill someone quickly. And of course, knowing when to use it as a gap closer. There is a learning curve on the instincts on when to do which. Every now and then when playing a PUG team that doesn't help each other; I can go on a rampage where I hit a target, kill them; then don't even have to use a combat cloak cause no one bothered to even engage me while I was unstealthed killing their buddy, then repeat on the next target. Most of the time, I can be annoying though. Edited July 21, 2015 by Technohic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COOKIESNOMNOMNOM Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Nerf operatives they should not be a thing. Sin sorc pt for life! Nothing else matters fotm fotm fotm fotm fotm!!!! Buff sorcs!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pherdnut Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I play everything guys. With very little experience at both the stealth classes and making plenty of mistakes, I started kicking the crap out of people almost right away with both. I suspect they'd be pretty damn strong compared to a lot of the other classes even if you took away the stealth. They're just too tough for the burst damage they get compared to classes that don't have the panic-button-hide option. That said, the roll is only a problem for me when people use it to zip through hazards. Without the roll, ops would need to root/slow people when they attacked and have knockback immunity proccing off of unstealth or they'd be pathetically easy to kite after the initial attack. I'd rather they had the roll. Mostly I'd rather see largely ignored classes get a buff vs nerfing ops/sins but they could use some tweaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenalandavie Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Because pyro is too strong, plz nerf. Dude regardless of what class you come up against aslong as the player has opposable thumbs you are in trouble I got to admit you are hilarious n wz's. You are entertaining i thank you for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racter Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Operatives are completely fine. Root them and they blow up in 3s. Alternatively, stun them and they blow up in 3s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrilian Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Operatives are completely fine. Root them and they blow up in 3s. Alternatively, stun them and they blow up in 3s. You can't blow anything, that's barely touchable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmmbuddah Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 You can't blow anything, that's barely touchable Especially when most roots break on damage after 2 seconds, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Regarding the operative roll either a) remove the evasion after the roll found in concealment or b) allow x% damage to go through (favour (a) as with (b) the other two specs get screwed over also for no reason); also tune down a tat their hot heal as dps; maybe buff them a bit by decreasing duration and cd of probe shield so it is more of an on-demand defence and they are perfectly balanced then IMO. Edited July 31, 2015 by MusicRider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenalandavie Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Regarding the operative roll either a) remove the evasion after the roll found in concealment or b) allow x% damage to go through; also tune down a tat their hot heal; maybe buff them a bit by decreasing duration and cd of probe shield so it is more of an on-demand defence and they are perfectly balanced then IMO. If they are going to remove you know the dodge dodge resist they would need to change it to so % dmg reduction upon activation or buff shield probe to allow for this mitigation to be placed elsewhere because if it doesn't operatives would be left in a very bad place defensives wise. Without the roll Concealment would be doomed as for lethality that already has the instant proc on Kinfusion which doesn't need tuning down I can pump out more heals on my sorc dps than Op dps thats for sure. Its why warzones have sorc healers everywhere right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If they are going to remove you know the dodge dodge resist they would need to change it to so % dmg reduction upon activation or buff shield probe to allow for this mitigation to be placed elsewhere because if it doesn't operatives would be left in a very bad place defensives wise. Without the roll Concealment would be doomed as for lethality that already has the instant proc on Kinfusion which doesn't need tuning down I can pump out more heals on my sorc dps than Op dps thats for sure. Its why warzones have sorc healers everywhere right now. Agree, they should not return to pre-3.0 state by any means and they are pretty close to balanced now except from the roll IMO; maybe even adjusting the roll and giving some passive mitigation elsewhere would be enough (and leave the hot as it is, small steps and see). IMO in 3.3 the game is much closer in balance than it was in 3.0 launch, just tiny adjustments here and there (e.g. my main is a sage/sorc and I think that benevolence/dark heal is too strong atm for dps specs and needs to be toned down by 20% with 10% cost reduction as a starting point and see from there). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicRider Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) PS: Coming back to the operatives is that their defences with the exception of shield probe are reactive which make them insanely effective vs casters (cancelling the ability due to server/client latch usually does not work) or vs "normal" instant rotations. Edited July 31, 2015 by MusicRider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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