TUXs Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I'm not sure if I'm reading this correctly. The way I'm interpreting this is you are suggesting to completely eliminate expertise from pvp gear and create a set of gear that is obtained exclusively through pvp comms, that is lower rated than the highest pve set. Is that correct? Absolutely! The 5% of the NiM raiders would have the "BEST" gear - the hardest level of difficulty PvE Ops would always have the best gear in-game. The stat differences between 192 and 198 gear are insignificant enough that it would be a non issue in PvP. Where PvP gear would have an advantage (for PvP) is in WZ's, not OW. The bonuses (2,4,6 piece) would apply to WZ's only and they would be superior to the PvE gear bonuses. In the OW, the PvP bonuses wouldn't apply. That encourages PvPers to get some PvE gear for set bonuses, and it puts the PvEer on more even ground for OW encounters, making those fights more about skill than Expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aluvi Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 If there are 3 serious pvpers that want to run pub toons, let me know. I can transfer my sentinel over there and farm regs all day with you. Need to be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Absolutely! The 5% of the NiM raiders would have the "BEST" gear - the hardest level of difficulty PvE Ops would always have the best gear in-game. The stat differences between 192 and 198 gear are insignificant enough that it would be a non issue in PvP. Where PvP gear would have an advantage (for PvP) is in WZ's, not OW. The bonuses (2,4,6 piece) would apply to WZ's only and they would be superior to the PvE gear bonuses. In the OW, the PvP bonuses wouldn't apply. That encourages PvPers to get some PvE gear for set bonuses, and it puts the PvEer on more even ground for OW encounters, making those fights more about skill than Expertise. I can't honestly agree with anything in this post. There should never be an incentive to PvE if you are only interested in PvP. PvE gear should never be better than PvP gear in PvP. PvP is not only warzones, but any environment in which players compete with players. PvP gear doesn't have to be better than PvE gear, but it can't be worse. Even with set bonuses to differentiate ( which wouldn't be enough of a difference and would have to be OP), you'd still have to get PvE mods and enhancements since they would be BiS even if the armorings were PvP for set bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I can't honestly agree with anything in this post. There should never be an incentive to PvE if you are only interested in PvP. PvE gear should never be better than PvP gear in PvP. PvP is not only warzones, but any environment in which players compete with players. PvP gear doesn't have to be better than PvE gear, but it can't be worse. Even with set bonuses to differentiate ( which wouldn't be enough of a difference and would have to be OP), you'd still have to get PvE mods and enhancements since they would be BiS even if the armorings were PvP for set bonus. Wait lol, are you saying that developers should never try to get people to expand beyond their comfort zone? That's literally EXACTLY what game developers do...they want you to participate in PvE, PvP, GSF AND crafting. It gets you more involved with the game. You are free to disagree with me on what I'd like to see, but don't be dense about game design. You're free to want to keep you PvP gear advantage. I'd prefer to see it 100% gone from OW encounters because I think it would be better for the game...but the only way to do that is to equalize the stats. And in my example above, PvE gear isn't better for WZ's...and in the OW, I'd prefer equal fights that rely more on your PvP experience, not your gear advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I've often wondered why certain stats are assigned to certain tiers. Why is Alacrity a tertiary stat and not a direct tradeoff for power? Hit harder or hit faster. Why is Crit a secondary stat and not a direct tradeoff for Surge? More crits or bigger crits. And why is expertise in a tier all by itself? Why is expertise not a tradeoff for mainstat? Dunno the specifics of why, and I couldn't possibly know all the implications but it seems like it could work (obviously not in their current forms). First off when the game launched Alacrity only affected casters and was only ever used by healers. Secondly even post 3.0 you cannot have alacrity as a secondary stat because that would mean alacrity would be competing with power which as a result would mean all specs would just power stack. Alacrity would need major buffs in order for it to compete with power but you can't do that because having a high return on alacrity introduces some game design issues. Crit and power work better on the same tier. It's worth noting that bonus damage is just as much a factor in the effectiveness of critting as surge is, and the current returns on crit rating balance well. Expertise actually used to be a tradeoff for mainstant and endurance back in 1.x. That was removed with the new system in 2.0 due to the slew of issues the old system had. One of the big difficulties being that even with the mainstat tradeoff you could still easily do progression raid content in full PvP gear, and according to dev statements it made creating gear tiers awkward since PvP gear had abnormal amounts of stats for it's rating, and because with expertise factored into the stat budget there where issues with Thus expertise was removed from the stat budget and became a constant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 Wait lol, are you saying that developers should never try to get people to expand beyond their comfort zone? That's literally EXACTLY what game developers do...they want you to participate in PvE, PvP, GSF AND crafting. It gets you more involved with the game. You are free to disagree with me on what I'd like to see, but don't be dense about game design. You're free to want to keep you PvP gear advantage. I'd prefer to see it 100% gone from OW encounters because I think it would be better for the game...but the only way to do that is to equalize the stats. And in my example above, PvE gear isn't better for WZ's...and in the OW, I'd prefer equal fights that rely more on your PvP experience, not your gear advantage. I noted specifically that PvP gear does NOT have to be better than PvE gear. And I may have misphrased what I meant. You can incentivise participating in content, but not at the cost of hampering your performance in one area without doing another. You should never HAVE to PvE in order to perform optimally in PvP. But that doesn't mean you can't offer cool looking gear for PvE content, decorations, titles, or whatever might appeal to PvP players. If I simply don't enjoy PvE, I should not have to participate to fully enjoy the rest of the game. For clarity sake, I participate in both PvE and PvP. I enjoy both, but firmly believe no one should be forced to do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 If there are 3 serious pvpers that want to run pub toons, let me know. I can transfer my sentinel over there and farm regs all day with you. Need to be good. Read here : http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=812207 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I still have yet to do but one end game PvE thing. Actually just recently in ESO, my PvP guild decided one time to randomly try a PvE thing and boy did it not go well. Just takes one thing with an instant kill mechanic you are supposed to memorize to get you out of the dynamic PvP react and adapt mind set and it was pretty much over. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 I noted specifically that PvP gear does NOT have to be better than PvE gear. And I may have misphrased what I meant. You can incentivise participating in content, but not at the cost of hampering your performance in one area without doing another. You should never HAVE to PvE in order to perform optimally in PvP. But that doesn't mean you can't offer cool looking gear for PvE content, decorations, titles, or whatever might appeal to PvP players. If I simply don't enjoy PvE, I should not have to participate to fully enjoy the rest of the game. For clarity sake, I participate in both PvE and PvP. I enjoy both, but firmly believe no one should be forced to do either. What I have in yellow above is EXACTLY what happens now. If you don't PvP regularly, you're ****** if you enter a WZ!!! Your best PvE gear will actually HURT you in a WZ right now. Likewise, good luck running Underlurker in your 168 PvP gear. What I would like to see is the gears equalized so that you can participate in either PvE or PvP, despite what you've normally done, without being completely worthless. PvP gear sets and bonuses should be advantages for PvP, PvE gear and bonuses should benefit PvE. Stats should be similar enough that either one works well in either activity, the "perk" should be in the bonuses. I suggested keeping 198's for top tier PvE, but you're right...make "ranked" gear the same top level. PvEers will throw a fit though...I just figured any competent PvPer wouldn't need the 198 gear to whoop a PvEer in 198s. I'm like you, I do both. I have a full 174 PvP set (2%) and a mix of 198/192 PvE gear. I don't care that I have 2 sets, but I dislike players being FORCED to gear up fully for either activity, even if they just want to try it. I want the entry gap closed for both and I want OW PvP determined by skill, not gear. I HATE the gear gap in the freaking game. It turns players off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 What I have in yellow above is EXACTLY what happens now. If you don't PvP regularly, you're ****** if you enter a WZ!!! Your best PvE gear will actually HURT you in a WZ right now. Likewise, good luck running Underlurker in your 168 PvP gear. What I would like to see is the gears equalized so that you can participate in either PvE or PvP, despite what you've normally done, without being completely worthless. PvP gear sets and bonuses should be advantages for PvP, PvE gear and bonuses should benefit PvE. Stats should be similar enough that either one works well in either activity, the "perk" should be in the bonuses. I suggested keeping 198's for top tier PvE, but you're right...make "ranked" gear the same top level. PvEers will throw a fit though...I just figured any competent PvPer wouldn't need the 198 gear to whoop a PvEer in 198s. I'm like you, I do both. I have a full 174 PvP set (2%) and a mix of 198/192 PvE gear. I don't care that I have 2 sets, but I dislike players being FORCED to gear up fully for either activity, even if they just want to try it. I want the entry gap closed for both and I want OW PvP determined by skill, not gear. I HATE the gear gap in the freaking game. It turns players off. Free PvP gear. Mandatory for warzones/arenas. If not free gear, then have 1 tier to obtain and if you aren't wearing it, you get a base stat line regardless of what you have on based on your discipline. Open world is worthless in this game and there won't be any PvP servers left soon enough anyway. During events like the Gree that have PvP areas or Outlaw's Den, treat them like warzones. None of this gear needs spectacular stats, good enough to get through dailies as intended. If you want to run HM FPs or do Ops, then do them and get the gear as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dillingerescplan Posted June 5, 2015 Share Posted June 5, 2015 If there are 3 serious pvpers that want to run pub toons, let me know. I can transfer my sentinel over there and farm regs all day with you. Need to be good. Ayyyyy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KumbayaGOD Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 If there are 3 serious pvpers that want to run pub toons, let me know. I can transfer my sentinel over there and farm regs all day with you. Need to be good. can i raise my hand and join the farming band wagon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obviousenuendo Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 What I have in yellow above is EXACTLY what happens now. If you don't PvP regularly, you're ****** if you enter a WZ!!! Your best PvE gear will actually HURT you in a WZ right now. Likewise, good luck running Underlurker in your 168 PvP gear. What I would like to see is the gears equalized so that you can participate in either PvE or PvP, despite what you've normally done, without being completely worthless. PvP gear sets and bonuses should be advantages for PvP, PvE gear and bonuses should benefit PvE. Stats should be similar enough that either one works well in either activity, the "perk" should be in the bonuses. I suggested keeping 198's for top tier PvE, but you're right...make "ranked" gear the same top level. PvEers will throw a fit though...I just figured any competent PvPer wouldn't need the 198 gear to whoop a PvEer in 198s. I'm like you, I do both. I have a full 174 PvP set (2%) and a mix of 198/192 PvE gear. I don't care that I have 2 sets, but I dislike players being FORCED to gear up fully for either activity, even if they just want to try it. I want the entry gap closed for both and I want OW PvP determined by skill, not gear. I HATE the gear gap in the freaking game. It turns players off. getting all 162 mods and gear is relatively easy to do atm, I restored a toon who was stripped down with no cash but had to get head off-hand relic/earpiece. because that was the only things missing as I only use pvp gear, it works for everything in the game that is not raiding which means nothing, so everything in the game. get level 50 or 55 relic pecies do not go above 168 though, in fact don't even wear 168, anything under it that is above level 49 will do. right now my bolster is only missing 20 expertise and I still have over 3100 mainstat (wearing 168 pieces or higher brings this down, which is bad no-no) and I get 40K health too. It's not perfect, but I can pvp at 60 and still be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 Free PvP gear. Mandatory for warzones/arenas. If not free gear, then have 1 tier to obtain and if you aren't wearing it, you get a base stat line regardless of what you have on based on your discipline. Open world is worthless in this game and there won't be any PvP servers left soon enough anyway. During events like the Gree that have PvP areas or Outlaw's Den, treat them like warzones. None of this gear needs spectacular stats, good enough to get through dailies as intended. If you want to run HM FPs or do Ops, then do them and get the gear as intended. With changes coming to WZ comms and the reduced cost of all pvp gear... People don't need free gear... Have a read about the changes and you will see that. A. You will get more XP and credits per match. B. Ranked comms are being removed. C. Pvp gear, both ranked and reg will be a lot cheaper. D. WZ comm cap will be increased to 200000. E. A lock box will be added so you can transfer comms between your toons... If you can't be bothered to do some pvp before lvl 60, you don't deserve to have gear when you get there... But even if you wait till 60, the grind will be very quick to get the entry lvl cap... Most people who pvp, should be able to afford to upgrade to ranked as soon as they hit 60... Once people have pvp gear, having bolster in open world won't be necessary... If you intend to be flagged for pvp or go into a pvp area or event... You just swap your gear or you go do some WZs to get it... The self entitlement of people these days is unbelievable... They want it now, they want it free... What ever happened to working for something... The Devs are making a lot of positive changes to the whole system that make it more than fair... More fair than any other pvp MMO I have played... I suggest you keep up to date and stop QQing all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) With my main Gunslinger on my home server I'm simply waiting for 3.3 to arrive now. Because I'm just no more willing to spend so many Commendations for new tiers of gear (he doesn't even Exhumeed yet, because I stopped doing PvP with my main many months ago). Edited June 6, 2015 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 I still have yet to do but one end game PvE thing. Actually just recently in ESO, my PvP guild decided one time to randomly try a PvE thing and boy did it not go well. Just takes one thing with an instant kill mechanic you are supposed to memorize to get you out of the dynamic PvP react and adapt mind set and it was pretty much over. lol LOL, and then PvPers here claim that PvE is BEEEP because it is only easy fighting against "some mechanic" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 With changes coming to WZ comms and the reduced cost of all pvp gear... People don't need free gear... Have a read about the changes and you will see that. A. You will get more XP and credits per match. B. Ranked comms are being removed. C. Pvp gear, both ranked and reg will be a lot cheaper. D. WZ comm cap will be increased to 200000. E. A lock box will be added so you can transfer comms between your toons... If you can't be bothered to do some pvp before lvl 60, you don't deserve to have gear when you get there... But even if you wait till 60, the grind will be very quick to get the entry lvl cap... Most people who pvp, should be able to afford to upgrade to ranked as soon as they hit 60... Once people have pvp gear, having bolster in open world won't be necessary... If you intend to be flagged for pvp or go into a pvp area or event... You just swap your gear or you go do some WZs to get it... The self entitlement of people these days is unbelievable... They want it now, they want it free... What ever happened to working for something... The Devs are making a lot of positive changes to the whole system that make it more than fair... More fair than any other pvp MMO I have played... I suggest you keep up to date and stop QQing all the time It's like you only post on the forums, but don't ever read the forums. I told you like 5 posts up that I know about the changes in 3.3 and they are definitely good for the game. I'm merely participating in a discussion around how gear should be handled in MMOs. 3.3 will make PvP gear easily obtainable, which fits with how I feel gear should work. Either free or easily obtainable so that the difference between you and your opponent will largely be determined by skill. As for your attitude, I don't want PvP gear free because I'm too lazy to get it. I want PvP gear to be free so that everyone is on an equal level. I don't PvP to get gear and have another grind to add to my list. I PvP to beat other human controlled opponents who can think and adapt rather than focusing on difficult mechanics or executing a perfect rotation. If someone can get the best gear without ever winning a match and they can then beat a better player simply because they played longer, then I'd say it's a poor PvP system. SWTOR certainly doesn't have that big of a gear gap, but give me one real reason for a gear grind outside of "giving PvPers something to do" since apparently actually PvPing isn't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technohic Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) LOL, and then PvPers here claim that PvE is BEEEP because it is only easy fighting against "some mechanic" ? It has to do with memorizing more than difficulty. Best PvPers do have a little of that here by knowing the popular burst rotations of most classes but a lot of it relies on reacting to the situation to where those rotations fly out the window pretty fast. It's simalar but a bit more advanced when adapting. As far as my guild trying out of the blue to PvE, it was more a matter of someone reading some guide online and trying to coordinate with a bunch of impatient PvPers who are used to not having the luxury to stand just outside of agro while they plan their attack. Of course, a good PvEer group will not need to do that but only because they memorize the mechanics and those mechanics never change. Impatients got the best of us and it was more of a "F it. Lets just leave." Edited June 8, 2015 by Technohic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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