Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[baznasty]

Judging by these forums, people just want SWTOR to turn into WoW with lightsabers. If it isn't "I want my combat just like WoW," it's "I need a looking for dungeon system, just like WoW" or "This game needs arenas, just like WoW" or "I should be able to switch my role, just like WoW" or "I don't want to have to deal with a story, just like WoW." I haven't seen a single thread with so-called "positive feedback" that wasn't somehow lobbying to turn this game into WoW.

 

I'll just come back after the free month when the people who actually want to play SWTOR are still here. Then maybe we can get down to brass tacks.

 

Let's say Bioware made a FPS. Let's then say you log into that FPS and play an online match. You then find that the delay between the time you fire your weapon to when the weapon was actually fired is .1 seconds. .1 seconds is a tiny amount; however, it is game breaking for that genre for competitive players. Let's then say that someone posted on that forums and said "Bioware, please fix this. Right now, when I shoot an enemy while aiming at their head, by the time the move fires, they are not in the same place, causing my headshot to just miss. Call of Duty gets this right, please do like that".

 

In that instance, there will be people so fueled by hate for CoD that they will then flame and say "another fanboy wanting the game to be JUST LIKE COD!!!" Well, that is not asking for a game to copy the style of another game, that is asking for a game to work, like another game.

 

Please, don't let your hatred for a game fuel your posts. There is a problem here, it's not asthetics, it's not style, it's a mechanic that is broken.

 

I love this game, I 100% want for it to succeed. I didn't spend 150 bucks on this game to just flame it for no reason. I want to spend 7 years playing this, just as I did that other game you hate. But, in it's current state, I can't see that happening.

 

I 100% agree about dungeon finders and other things. That's a matter of style and design choice. This, however, is a fundamental gameplay element.

[mbernert]

Judging by these forums, people just want SWTOR to turn into WoW with lightsabers. If it isn't "I want my combat just like WoW," it's "I need a looking for dungeon system, just like WoW" or "This game needs arenas, just like WoW" or "I should be able to switch my role, just like WoW" or "I don't want to have to deal with a story, just like WoW." I haven't seen a single thread with so-called "positive feedback" that wasn't somehow lobbying to turn this game into WoW.

 

I'll just come back after the free month when the people who actually want to play SWTOR are still here. Then maybe we can get down to brass tacks.

 

It couldn't be because of the large success that wow has had. And said game wasn't largely successful just "because".

 

Many of the features implimented in that game were great.

 

To continue on topic though. I have played wow since release, somewhat competitve (22-2500 in all brackets every season). I never liked raiding, I was never into the story. The combat system was the bread and butter of that game to me. As I said in a previous post, I tried rift, wanted to like it, but its lack of responsive controls drove me away.

 

I like this game so far. The story is somewhat interesting, but I'm not exactly a story gamer, at least as far as online games go.

 

I've been playing this game about 3-4 hours a day since release. I can tell you this, if the controls were as responsive as wow, I would be hard pressed to log off. As it is now I can only handle it a few hours a day, and to be honest, I have already cancled my sub with plans to play my free 30 and move on. For anyone who cares as to why, because I have played many mmo's over the last 10 years, with similiar combat problems that I find here, and they were never fixed. I wish they would be fixed here, but I don't hold my breath on it.

[Siem]

Judging by these forums, people just want SWTOR to turn into WoW with lightsabers. If it isn't "I want my combat just like WoW," it's "I need a looking for dungeon system, just like WoW" or "This game needs arenas, just like WoW" or "I should be able to switch my role, just like WoW" or "I don't want to have to deal with a story, just like WoW." I haven't seen a single thread with so-called "positive feedback" that wasn't somehow lobbying to turn this game into WoW.

 

I'll just come back after the free month when the people who actually want to play SWTOR are still here. Then maybe we can get down to brass tacks.

 

This is a terrible and naive view. No one here wants this to turn into WoW. I would just go back to playing that. This thread takes an objective look and combat and gameplay and proposes what the VAST MAJORITY of people in this thread feel: that combat is clunky and unresponsive.

 

It's a big deal for players who want to get the most out of their characters. I want to play SW:TOR to enjoy the story, play with my friends and check out some cool Star Wars zones. That may last me 2-3 months.

 

When you get down to the nuts and bolts of the game after you've seen everything, it's lacking--and I fear subs will hurt because of it.

 

You may want all these people to un-sub, but you know that's really not what you want, because it's a sign there's something wrong that needs to be addressed.

[Contumelious]

Judging by these forums, people just want SWTOR to turn into WoW with lightsabers. If it isn't "I want my combat just like WoW," it's "I need a looking for dungeon system, just like WoW" or "This game needs arenas, just like WoW" or "I should be able to switch my role, just like WoW" or "I don't want to have to deal with a story, just like WoW." I haven't seen a single thread with so-called "positive feedback" that wasn't somehow lobbying to turn this game into WoW.

 

I'll just come back after the free month when the people who actually want to play SWTOR are still here. Then maybe we can get down to brass tacks.

 

 

How is "Remove the delay from abilities so I am able to play the game as I am meant to, and not adhere to some invisible, inherent additional cooldown/cast-time" equal to "I WANT COMBAT JUST LIKE WOW".

 

Grow up, and face the *Brass tacks* you are talking about.

 

SW:TOR has serious problems with this delay and cast-time, and it will ruin high-end PvE just as it will ruin high-end PvP. Nobody is exempt from this problem.

 

I am a huge fan of the game and the concept, but being unable to play it properly is still turning me off of it entirely.

[mbernert]

Here's the thing. World of Warcraft has the best gameplay on the market, Blizzards are the kings of gameplay.

 

Now people want a new game, however they want this new game to be just as fun as WoW, when they see that the new game has worse gameplay then WoW has, they request that the developers improve things.

 

This doesn't mean that they want the new game to be WoW, obviously if they want to play WoW, WoW is right there waiting for them. However they want similar quality of gameplay.

 

^ This x9999999999

[tarcin]

Completely agree with OP. There is no way this game will captivate the competitive PvP croud with this issue in place. Implementing a single warzone and having this issue addressed is more important than releasing a new WZ every patch and not acknowledging it at all. There are examples of the same ability between factions (inquisitor/sage) with different animation times (lightning faster than object collition). Works in paper, not so much in practice.

 

I was thinking about the same too. I am a Jedi Shadow and my twin class in Empire faction is Sith Assassins. I observed in warzones that my Project abilitiy matches with their lighning abilitiy in which mine takes longer(grab stone beneath the ground, rise it high and throw to enemy) while Sith Assassins just instantly electrocutes me. I found this pretty unfair to be honest.

[oflow]

Interesting post and perspective.

 

 

@ OP:

 

That being said what exactly is World of Warcraft’s official ‘response time’ and how are you sure that, whatever said response time is , said response time actually has the ability to override the massively huge variety of keyboards and mouse combinations utilized by millions of players across the world??

 

That would obviously be quite the hat trick to pull off.

 

In attempting to research your point in lieu of someone citing what actual official World of Warcraft ‘response time’ is and how said ‘response time’ can over ride every keyboard and mouse combination manufactured that may be in use; the only thing I’ve seen about this topic are with regard to “addons” or hacks that can decrease response times such as:

 

Cast time Analysis

 

Addon Cast 0.4 seconds faster

 

But I’m really interested in an answer to my first question; from someone in support of this topic.

 

 

 

Its not really a keyboard or mouse issue it has to do with the players cpu being out of sync with the server cpu.

 

Dont know if this is legal to post here but here is a link that explains this type of issue:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2661067372

 

Like I said in an another post, one of the good things about opening up the API to the players is that in their macro/UI forum the GMs there actually talk to the modding community and work with them to find and fix bugs. Lots of people that dont understand how the game works think mods are just used to cheat, but a big part of the reason WoW runs so smoothly is there are a ton of modders finding bugs, reporting them and actually helping fix them.

Edited December 26, 2011 by oflow

[Contumelious]

I was thinking about the same too. I am a Jedi Shadow and my twin class in Empire faction is Sith Assassins. I observed in warzones that my Project abilitiy matches with their lighning abilitiy in which mine takes longer(grab stone beneath the ground, rise it high and throw to enemy) while Sith Assassins just instantly electrocutes me. I found this pretty unfair to be honest.

 

This problem isn't only existing in PvP.

 

Ask anyone intending on high-end PvE gameplay, and they will tell you their rotations get messed up and they need to *adjust* to server-side sync problems, lag, or broken game mechanics... Whichever category this falls into.

 

I am not level 50 yet, but getting there, as I am 46 - but I have had this problem since the first day I was introduces into early access, and have several friends who have been betatesting for around a year, who all tell me the problem has persisted through all the beta-phases, regardless of the fact that many people already made Bioware aware of the problem.

[-COBRA-]

rofl so if we weants a game that work means we want swtor to be like wow? LOL Devs add 1 sec cd also, 1.5 make the game looks craps and old ,do u remember on war? u tried 1.5 sec gcd also but didnt work, so u changed it in 1.21 patch to 1 sec

[gurugeorge]

Essentially "yes" that is part of it. It is not the whole story though, for example when running a tight rotation on my smuggler and basically chaining many abilities tightly together, many times an ability's cooldown will trigger without animation or effect of the ability because, I guess I was too fast and just messed the system up.

 

However yes, in WoW the ability animation interrupts and changes to whatever you're pressing right at the moment. Which I believe leads to better connection with your Avatar, which in turn I believe is "much" more important than Animations (in PvP, lets not even talk about it).

 

 

Again, this is only "part" of the issue and I do believe netcoding as well as "when the damage hits you" mechanically is part of it too... its a very complex situation.

 

Ah well, I would disagree that animations always have to be of the interruptable type. I think there has to be a balance between "realism" and "gameplay".

 

For example, if you're swinging a massive 2H weapon, it really has to finish its animation, otherwise you don't get a sense of the weight of the weapon.

 

i.e. if you hit the key for the swing, and then immediately hit another key for another attack, you don't want the animation to immediately jerk to another animation - or do you? Even WoW doesn't do that for all attacks, IIRC.

 

It's a compromise - some animations (e.g. a 2H swing) have to finish, in principle, and some animations (e.g. something simple firing a blaster) ought to be interruptable, in principle. And your brain ought to be able to intuitively understand the difference, and there ought to be no significant delay from the machinery (e.g. inconsistent timing) that puts your intuition off.

 

All of which, to sum up, I don't think this is an "overall" problem or a problem with BW's design philosophy for the game, but as some are saying, more of a problem with some specific abilities under specific circumstances, i.e. bugginess.

 

i.e. I agree there's a problem, but I still think it's INCONSISTENCY in responsiveness rather than OVERALL LACK of a certain type of (immediate, animation-interrupting) responsiveness.

 

IOW, it's clear that BW intend that there are certain times where you're meant to enjoy a "finishing" animation - but your brain ought to be able to factor that in, even under competitive circumstances (after all, in theory, everyone's in the same position of having to wait for some animations to finish, correct?)

 

To me, that's fine - it's just problematic if this system isn't working properly and smoothly and CONSISTENTLY (as indeed at the moment it isn't, not all the time, and not for everyone all the time).

 

If you disagree, then maybe you just don't like this game's design philosophy, and maybe you really just want to play WoW

Edited December 26, 2011 by gurugeorge

[lethal_ghost]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=87120

 

could this be a possible explanation for it ?

[Zironic]

i.e. if you hit the key for the swing, and then immediately hit another key for another attack, you don't want the animation to immediately jerk to another animation - or do you? Even WoW doesn't do that, IIRC.

Actually WoW does do that, though most of the animations just run at superhighspeed, the characters look really funny if you look at what they're doing. In general a lot of things in WoW are just not animated. If you use a special attack at the same time you autoattack, the autoattacks stop being animated, if you attack several times at once, most of the attacks don't get animated, if you instant cast certain spells while doing something else, they don't get animated.

i.e. I agree there's a problem, but I still think it's INCONSISTENCY in responsiveness rather than OVERALL LACK of a certain type of (immediate, animation-interrupting) responsiveness.

 

IOW, it's clear that BW intend that there are certain times where you're meant to enjoy a "finishing" animation - but your brain ought to be able to factor that in, even under competitive circumstances (after all, in theory, everyone's in the same position of having to wait for some animations to finish, correct?)

 

To me, that's fine - it's just problematic if this system isn't working properly and smoothly and CONSISTENTLY (as indeed at the moment it isn't, not all the time, and not for everyone all the time).

 

If you disagree, then maybe you just don't like this game's design philosophy, and maybe you really just want to play WoW

Generally, people are fine with the animation taking some time, as long as the animation is either

A: During a channel

B: AFTER you've gotten your desired effect

 

It's the semi-random wait before your ability takes effect that gets you.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Zironic

[Homeostasis]

Already cancelled sub, the story is great don't get me wrong, but gameplay is crippling the game. I'm playing a BH atm and even leveling is frustrating because there is so many bugs with many abilities (i.e unload). I played WoW for 4 years (hardcore raiding, 2.5k+ arenas) and I have extremely high expectations when it comes to gameplay. I realize the game just came out but that's no excuse, no game should be released with such issues. Lack of UI customization is also a game breaker for me.

 

Will wait for first patch, if the ability delay issue and some other minor issues are fixed which I doubt then I'll subscribe again otherwise I'm just going to wait for the next MMO.

[Jinnz]

OP hit the nail on the head, and a direct comparison can be made to Call of Duty. It's 60fps smooth and responsive gameplay is what made it king, and will carry it forwards despite IW treating it as a cashcow...

 

People will gladly pay money for small thigns if a game is worth playing. No game is worth playing if its unresponsive.

 

I watched WAR players leave in DROVES because of the early launch problems of cc and empty server with problems not being addressed until too late.

[Oberion]

Already cancelled sub, the story is great don't get me wrong, but gameplay is crippling the game. I'm playing a BH atm and even leveling is frustrating because there is so many bugs with many abilities (i.e unload). I played WoW for 4 years (hardcore raiding, 2.5k+ arenas) and I have extremely high expectations when it comes to gameplay. I realize the game just came out but that's no excuse, no game should be released with such issues. Lack of UI customization is also a game breaker for me.

 

Will wait for first patch, if the ability delay issue and some other minor issues are fixed which I doubt then I'll subscribe again otherwise I'm just going to wait for the next MMO.

 

Then do like you did with WOW....wait till the game is three years old...then I think you can compare them. Heck even a year...the game will be even better given time.

[Doolish]

/bump

[mikeoquinn]

Sadly I agree, once it has been in a game it has never been "fixed". As I recall, WoW largely played smooth (although it had so many other issues) when it launched...

 

My fear as well is coding/engine...

 

WoW actually had this input lag issue for a while, when they moved calculation of the global cooldown and ability cooldowns to the server rather than the client. In the end, they wound up balancing it out somewhat, but it took them near two patches to figure out an amicable fix.

 

Every time I experience the delay in TOR, that's what I'm reminded of: "I would have interrupted that cast, but the spell that I clicked within the first half-second of the cast bar didn't go off until his spell did."

[Raurth]

Then do like you did with WOW....wait till the game is three years old...then I think you can compare them. Heck even a year...the game will be even better given time.

 

WoW had at launch: server crashes, queues, it had a lack of real endgame content (and a content gap between level 45 and 55). It had entirely unbalanced talent trees that were utterly useless (lolferaldruids).

 

What it did not have at launch was a broken combat system.

 

You know the MMOs that had bad/broken combat systems at launch?

 

Rift. Aion. Warhammer Online.

 

How are they doing?

[Siem]

Then do like you did with WOW....wait till the game is three years old...then I think you can compare them. Heck even a year...the game will be even better given time.

 

I think it's the overall philosophy of the developers that is turning people off, not the execution of it.

 

Bioware has seemingly chosen animations and cool looking combat over responsiveness and smooth gameplay.

 

That's fine, if that's what you want, but many of us were expecting both.

[Solar]

Its not really a keyboard or mouse issue it has to do with the players cpu being out of sync with the server cpu.

 

Dont know if this is legal to post here but here is a link that explains this type of issue:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2661067372

 

Like I said in an another post, one of the good things about opening up the API to the players is that in their macro/UI forum the GMs there actually talk to the modding community and work with them to find and fix bugs. Lots of people that dont understand how the game works think mods are just used to cheat, but a big part of the reason WoW runs so smoothly is there are a ton of modders finding bugs, reporting them and actually helping fix them.

 

Thanks for the link and response; that was interesting. So, this isn't something that is unique to TOR apparently. One of the posters in that thread didn't have the problem anymore after moving to a Mac ... so... ...

 

okay j/k

 

Anyways: the last post was the 17 of Dec of this year and tech supposrt didn't see anything wrong on their end, so far, and the same type of responses ('I'm gonna quit') are there also. Evens things out a bit imho so thanks for the 'balanced' perspective.

[Homeostasis]

Then do like you did with WOW....wait till the game is three years old...then I think you can compare them. Heck even a year...the game will be even better given time.

 

This isn't an issue you can just hotfix or even fix in a patch. I'm more concerned about the fact that they ignored the issue during beta and it seems unlikely that they are going to even fix it. I really want this game to succeed, tired of WoWs supremacy but if you want a competitive game you just can't have these type of issues.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Homeostasis

[Xeikai]

Great post, outlines the problem perfectly. Yes, anyone who has played wow competitively in pvp or pve knows this is a huge problem. For me it's insanely frustrating to have to wait that .05 sec's for my move to come out, it feels like my character is stuck in molasses.

 

That coupled with your target dropping cause you pressed a directional key after a cc/stun is another horrible bug that should be looked at. But yes, to those who dont see a problem, Try to imagine this,

 

If any of you play the fighting genre seriously, Try to play ssf4 ae over xbox/ps3/pc with a horrible connection t someone else, the input lag is a perfect example of what we're talking about. Try to imagine if you played skyrim or diablo or whatever and your sword swings didn't register till after you had clicked the mouse button .5 seconds ago, after playing the game with razor sharp responsiveness. This is wow's advantage, this is why it's so good, cause the game has amazing flow and responsiveness, Who care if it looks like crap. It plays like a dream.

 

I hope Bioware fixes this all too important issue within the next couple of months or so. I really do. This game has alot of great ideas and it would be a shame to see it fail due to such a nasty bug.

[Rendekar]

This isn't an issue you can just hotfix or even fix in a patch. I'm more concerned about the fact that they ignored the issue during beta and it seems unlikely that they are going to even fix it. I really want this game to succeed, tired of WoWs supremacy but if you want a competitive game you just can't have these type of issues.

 

Nope, I guess this issue is here to stay. They have had the issue even in their demonstration videos and stuff. It was also there in all beta versions. Do not expect a magic patch. It is highly unlikely.

[Elarion]

Didn't bother reading any other replies but I agree with the OP. I'm pretty sure the 1.5 sec GCD plays a big part in the unresponsiveness. I thought I would get used to it but I haven't. Playing a JK Guardian I'm always looking at how much focus I have and what abilities are off CD and it's just to long a CD to make the character feel responsive. I'm sure if I was looking at the character instead then it might be better, playing off the animations but it isn't really an option the way the UI is designed as playing with a priority based class.

[mikeoquinn]

 

(also, if it effects all classes, isn't it 'balanced' in that regard?)

 

 

 

No, for a couple of reasons:

• PvE opponents are not affected by this delay, effectively dilating time for the player in relation to server-controlled opponents.
  
• In PvP, the delay may be equally-present across all classes, but it is of significantly higher impact to classes/abilities used reactively based on the activities of foes (heals, interrupts) than it does to classes who fall into a more proactive role (DPS). Everyone's getting delayed, but precision timing matters - by and large - somewhat more for an interrupt or a heal before a crippling blow lands than it does for the blow itself.
  

 

I've also noticed that the impact of this issue grows (to greater or lesser extent) when more people are around - not talking FPS, mind you, just the input lag - large group activities would seem to be heavier-hit by this bug, meaning that it's an even worse problem in operations or large-scale PvPthan it is in solo play.