Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Raurth]

It's done to PREVENT spamming. You have to anticipate when your ability is over and then use the next one, spamming the same button over and over will cause delays and make your overall combat experience seem sluggish at best. It's the mechanic BW went with in order to ensure a fair, balanced game with no bunny hopping try hards or one-move-spammers.

 

Guys, we're all idiots. We've missed the fact that an unresponsive, sluggish combat system is actually an advanced gameplay feature!

 

Hot dang!

 

I guess my UI breaking every 5 minutes is so that I can "Remove the UI every 5 minutes to experience the empty world in full 1080p gloriousness before loading it back up!"

[Feskitt]

It's done to PREVENT spamming. You have to anticipate when your ability is over and then use the next one, spamming the same button over and over will cause delays and make your overall combat experience seem sluggish at best. It's the mechanic BW went with in order to ensure a fair, balanced game with no bunny hopping try hards or one-move-spammers.

 

Which is probably yet another reason I enjoy it as is, since I despise those types of players.

 

[Rendekar]

I cannot believe that there is still people replying in this thread just to refuse the problems of the combat system. Keep dreaming guys. Yeah, I am sure Bioware did this intentionally. They did not want their combat system to be responsive. They want 1 sec cast spells to take 1.3 or 1.5 seconds. Oh, I really love the way you fanboys are deluding each other.

[Rokkimies]

Then if that is what people are talking about, I hope they keep it as is. Because that's realistic. That's how a person would actually move if they were to jump.

 

Just adapt one's timing to the animations. (speaking only for BH Merc Arsenal, don't know about any other class animations)

 

 

 

 

 

Realism is nice, but this is a game, its not very useful here. Or how it would be to use 3 weeks realtime to change planet, as extreme example? WoW has been stripped off lots of animation, mounting f.e. since it was useless and took too much time for nothing. And there is a way more of this, if you ask from older players they can about everyone tell that change has been moly good.

[baznasty]

I cannot believe that there is still people replying in this thread just to refuse the problems of the combat system. Keep dreaming guys. Yeah, I am sure Bioware did this intentionally. They did not want their combat system to be responsive. They want 1 sec cast spells to take 1.3 or 1.5 seconds. Oh, I really love the way you fanboys are deluding each other.

 

You see, they really wanted to differentiate themselves from "that other game". So, how they did that was to make the combat feel different. They choose to do a system that doesn't do what you tell it to do when you want it, instead it chooses when the best time to cast your ability is, if at all.

 

It's new, fresh and a great mechanic! You see, BW realized that people are too stupid to know when to actually cast the spell, so they let you try to cast it when it says it's ready, but then they take over and actually cast it when it should be cast!

 

So, we should all be grateful for such a wonderful feature! Now, too bad were not good enough players to adapt to such a complex system.

[Isende]

to be honest, this just PISSES me off. i cut my teeth on WoW, and have to say that i'm so disappointed with the cataclysmic failure they've made of that game. that said, the one thing they have over nearly anything else i've played (rift IS a lot better than it used to be) is responsiveness in casting. i play healers mainly, and when i cast a spell, i expect that spell to begin healing my target asap. unfair expectation? i don't think so. look at it this way -- as a sage seer, i have ONE "big" heal that has a 3sec cast time. when that cast time is delayed by .5 sec? that means my tank is still taking a beating. can i work around it? most of the time, as i'm a fairly bright and creative player who understands shielding, hots, etc. but sometimes? nope. sometimes my tanks fall because a hot's been delivered and the system is struggling to say -- "wait, you just cast a hot! now you want to turn around and cast another spell?!? ***?"

 

and for those who argue against spamming? i despise, loathe, detest one-button spamming. i've only recently begun macroing anything, and i ended up putting most of my macroed spells back on my bar, because i know intimately when each cast completes, and like being in control of what i'm doing. swtor has flummoxed that, mightily, with this cast delay. it makes me feel as sluggish as if i were back in wowland, trying to post-cata heal.

 

yeah, this is a big deal. also? i've found that when fighting npcs, they DON'T have this cast delay. how do i know this? i know this because a stun that should hit me when their saber hits me actually hits me before they've begun their force leap, bringing their saber in contact with me. this is unbalanced. it does require bein' fixed. count me in. //rated

[RuthlessKorrupt]

I haven't had this happen to me to much, but I agree with the OP.

 

It won't be game breaking for me until I'm in a large group and in a tough fight, when a 0.5 seconds can either mean victory or wipe. Then I'll be pissed. lol

[Xcore]

Hope they never dont even matter the reason add an arena to this game.

 

Different discussion, I am not trying to nag at anyone but I would really like to keep it focused on this subject because I think after 27 Pages of largely positive feedback and general agreement... a Bioware response is absolutely required.

 

Thank you though, I know you support the thread and cause

[Nanotech]

I'd be willing to bet at least half the people in this thread don't know there's an option to set your Ability Action Queue Window.

[Kehveli]

I can live with this but yes i do understand that pvp.ers do feel the pain, and like many others have said there is some lacking in the feel how your character behaves.

[Rendekar]

I'd be willing to bet at least half the people in this thread don't know there's an option to set your Ability Action Queue Window.

 

It doesn't matter since it solves nothing. Are you a troll seriously ? If you think that you don't have any problems then fine, go enjoy the game and leave the thread to the ones who recognize the issue.

[baznasty]

I'd be willing to bet at least half the people in this thread don't know there's an option to set your Ability Action Queue Window.

 

/Sigh. I bet half the people in this thread have no idea what the issue is and complain that it's part of the "ability queue".

[PeelRP]

I don't post very often but this thread needs to be recognized. The skill I have the most issues with is force choke. Sometimes I'll have to click the ability multiple times before it activates. Very frustrating. 5 stars

[lethal_ghost]

I'd be willing to bet at least half the people in this thread don't know there's an option to set your Ability Action Queue Window.

 

its nothing to do with that, why dont people get this. This just how long before one spell finishes you can click on the next one to q it.

Look at the speeder example click on speeder it appears move forward and it boots you off if you do it too quick, even though the speeder is there and your on it

Edited December 26, 2011 by lethal_ghost

[Thelzan]

I've seen many a bug in the UI. Cooldown timers not displaying correctly, being unable to use any abilities/channeled cast abilities following a force charge. The pvp trinkent ability is very snooty about what it considers an incapacitating/movement impairing effect. Charge will sometimes have wonky effects including me managing to charge a teammate while having selected and enemy on the opposite catwalk from him.

 

Plenty of bugs and general unresposiveness and for PvP that is unacceptable.

[gurugeorge]

Generally agree with the OP. However, just to put things in a bit of perspective ...

 

How do you know it's not a lag issue (properly so-called)? ie. something in the network coding perhaps?

 

I ask this because sometimes I feel lack of character responsiveness you're talking about, but sometimes everything seems in sync.

 

But this is the same with just about EVERY MMO I've ever played - except WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes and LOTRO/DDO. Those games all have similarly CONSISTENT avatar responsiveness, in descending order (most especially, consistent respnsiveness when things get busy).

 

I say this to balance out your singling this factor out as a primary cause of WoW's success. Some of the multitude of other MMOs with less character responsiveness (WAR, Rift, AoC, EQ2, DCUO, Champions Online, Aion, etc., etc., etc.) are still more successful than 2 of those on my high responsiveness list (CoH and DDO), so that can't be the whole story.

 

However, lack of character responsiveness may be part of the reason why games like (e.g.) WAR or DCUO aren't as successful as they could or should be given their many other charms.

 

The problem may just be the extreme difficulty of making these types of games, not anything specific to do with BioWare or the Hero engine being especially bad, as such. e.g. I believe the network code for WoW was written by the same team who went on to form Arenanet and make GW. I gather the guy who created the CoH engine is a bit of a genius of sorts in his own right. Turbine seem to be a particularly meticulous dev crew. Maybe those people just had a bit of an "edge" in certain areas that make for better character responsiveness, and I think it probably is in the area of network code.

 

To sum up, in perspective, what BioWare have done in terms of character responsiveness is about on a par with most MMOs, just not extra specially good (like WoW, GW, CoH and LOTRO/DDO).

Edited December 26, 2011 by gurugeorge

[Shellshock]

I bet you're the type of person who sits around projecting his misery onto others all day long in online forums; especially those with a difference of opinion. I mean, so long as we're making generalizations here I can be equally dismissive and just label you a whiner.

 

Adapting is a perfectly relevant argument because that's generally what you expect when playing a new game. Most of the people on this board seem to be complaining because they want this game to play like WoW. Well, it isn't WoW. This is essentially what your idea of "improving" the game is: cloning WoW's mechanics. If it doesn't play like WoW, then it is omggamebreaking!

 

I beta tested WAR from Friends and Family until launch. Ability delay was the least of that game's problems. I also think it is premature to worry about the devs becoming complacent. The game has been out 6 days. 6. days. That might seem like an eternity to you if all you do is sit around and play SWTOR, but for the rest of us, that's less than a week. At least wait for the first patch before you start throwing stones and claiming the end of days is upon us.

 

There is nothing constructive about being pretentious or acting like the game is already dead 6 days after launch. So, stop acting like you're doing us a favor by asserting your opinion as a fact that needs to be addressed by the developers. Your point of view is plausible, but really it comes across as far more disingenuous than sincere.

 

 

I don't think it's a matter of adapting, fair enough you can adapt to slight delays if they are consistent and equal across the board but different mirror classes have different "animation setup times" for basically the exact same move. That is something that shouldn't have made it through beta.

 

Also animations going off, activating the GCD but doing zero damage is not something you should have to adapt to.

 

Wouldn't you agree that the vast majority of people posting about this issue are doing so in order to improve the game rather than to stick the knife into Bioware for the sake of it?

 

As well as the odd delay and the delay in animation set up I have noticed that cast bar's sometimes do not appear although the animation and spell will go off.

 

I also noticed that when rolling into cover on Smuggler and IA then casting charged blast/snipe the ability will attempt to go off but will cancel itself for no apparent reason, wasting a GCD. I have also seen other discuss this exact issue in general chat.

 

It seems to stand out on some classes more than others (for me smuggler/IA) and don't know if all these issues tie together, but overall the combat response is something that needs looking at sooner rather than later IMO.

 

If you played Warhammer you'll know it was an issue that was never truly fixed there, people are probably just worried it will go the same way here and be constantly swept under the carpet.

 

You can have the biggest and best house on the street but if the foundtions are dodgy then the whole thing can come crashing down around you. Probably over the top analogy but combat is such an important factor in this game or any other MMO.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Shellshock

[Xcore]

I'd be willing to bet at least half the people in this thread don't know there's an option to set your Ability Action Queue Window.

 

Hey Nanotech,

 

I've so far read every post in this thread and will do my best to continue doing so. This means that I've read all of yours as well and I am fine with your point on my ridiculous prediction. Yes, you're absolutely right that me saying that it will "Make or Break" SW:TOR is an assumption based on my own experiences but I feel "very" confident about this, so much so that I am willing to label it a fact. This is largely due to historic repetition of other MMOs that have displayed this exact issue.

 

Now again, I am fine with you pointing out your critique in this regard but I would like you to understand that there is in fact a problem and that fixing/solving this problem only benefits you and your gameplay experience (assuming you prefer responsive/fast gameplay).

 

There is no doubt about it, there are 28 Pages of positive feedback and agreeing responses, this is an issue... help us fix it even if it doesn't appear to bother you because no ill will come of it being fixed.

 

 

Lets not nit-pick on wording, lets realize there is a problem, lets discuss it (as so many have done so amazingly) and lets bring it to Biowares attention so that we may enjoy SW:TOR for years and years and years to come.

[Siem]

Just adding my name to the list of players who are extremely concerned like the OP.

 

SW:TOR is a great game aside from this! The story is fun, the world has potential, and many of the little complaints people have with the UI or whatever have easy fixes.

 

This, however, is game breaking for anyone who wants to take the game any more seriously than a leveling experience.

 

High-end PvP and Operations will be imprecise and as a result, not fun. I play MMOs to master my character and get the most out of what the game allows me to do. The ability delay makes this feel like you're yelling directions to your character instead of BEING your character.

 

By no means does this make SW:TOR a BAD game, it just makes it a game that I'll unsubscribe to after I get my fill of the story and leveling. It's a shame, but true.

 

Bioware, I beg you to please address whether this will be looked into or not. I know you want your subs, but many peoples' endgame plans hinge on this issue.

[Zironic]

To sum up, in perspective, what BioWare have done in terms of character responsiveness is about on a par with most MMOs, just not extra specially good (like WoW, GW, CoH and LOTRO/DDO).

 

There's nothing magic about the network code, it's just that different developers have different priorities.

 

For Blizzard the number one priority is always Gameplay, overriding any other concern. Gameplay comes before Graphics, Lore, Realism or any other concern.

 

For Bioware it seems like 'realistic' animations are a higher concern then gameplay.

[Xcore]

Generally agree with the OP. However, just to put things in a bit of perspective ...

 

How do you know it's not a lag issue (properly so-called)? ie. something in the network coding perhaps?

 

I ask this because sometimes I feel lack of character responsiveness you're talking about, but sometimes everything seems in sync.

 

But this is the same with EVERY MMO I've ever played - except WoW, Guild Wars, City of Heroes and LOTRO/DDO. Those games all have similarly CONSISTENT avatar responsiveness, in descending order (most especially, consistent respnsiveness when things get busy).

 

I say this to balance out your singling this factor out as a primary cause of WoW's success. Some of the multitude of other MMOs with less character responsiveness (WAR, Rift, AoC, DCUO, Champions Online, Aion, etc., etc., etc.) are still more successful than 2 of those on my high responsiveness list (CoH and DDO), so that can't be the whole story.

 

However, lack of character responsiveness may be part of the reason why games like (e.g.) WAR or DCUO aren't as successful as they could or should be given their many other charms.

 

The problem may just be the extreme difficulty of making these types of games, not anything specific to do with BioWare or the Hero engine being especially bad, as such. e.g. I believe the network code for WoW was written by the same team who went on to form Arenanet and make GW. I gather the guy who created the CoH engine is a bit of a genius of sorts in his own right. Turbine seem to be a particularly meticulous dev crew. Maybe those people just had a bit of an "edge" in certain areas that make for better character responsiveness, and I think it probably is in the area of network code.

 

To sum up, in perspective, what BioWare have done in terms of character responsiveness is about on a par with most MMOs, just not extra specially good (like WoW, GW, CoH and LOTRO/DDO).

 

 

Hey great question and response,

 

Its very simple to determine that it isn't lag or fps issues. I am standing around in the middle of nowhere and have about 50+ FPS with my ms being about 20-50 (less than WoW apparently where I am around 150-200)

 

Yet, the issues persist.

 

Now you make a very good analysis regarding the Character Responsiveness of several MMOs and their success. I would have to say yes, its not the "whole" story but stress also "yes" it is the #1 most important part. Resoundingly "yes" it is the reason WoW is so successful, perhaps now 6 years later... there are many other reasons WoW is staying where it is but this #1 criteria is still there.

 

 

Hope this helps and I was on topic of your question! I just woke up!

[oflow]

Its called a sync error. I'm not a coder but its something to do with server side latency.

 

I believe the issue has to do with abilities in this game not completing until after the animations goes off. In other games when you use abilities they actually fire and hit the target before you see the animation, which is why in say WoW for instance if you fly past a mob and they shoot a spell at you the spell bolt or whatever will follow you forever until you stop and let it hit you. You already took the damage before you saw the animation.

 

This and resolve are what makes ToR's pvp a lot different than WoW's too, since you cant really spam stuff you have to wait for the animation to finish even on instants. Even your instants can be interrupted in this game by knockback for example if you are pushed before the animation completes which kinda changes the dynamics of pvp dramatically.

 

The problem that I have noticed is that it has something to do with mainly abilities that are off the GCD. Often times abilities off the GCD wont fire if the button is clicked twice before the animation completes (even though the ability is supposed to be instant), it will make the character do some kind of wierd 'double clutch', use your resources (ammo, focus whatever), reset the GCD but nothing actually happens.

 

Here are links to posts with youtube videos of the issue by players here named Neroe & Rendekar:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=75067

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=82842

 

Just playing around with this I also find for some reason it happens less when you use keybinds than when you use clicks, which is why I think some people say they never have the problem, they are probably using keybinds. So it may also have something to do with how the action bars/UI accept input too.

 

This issue and the raid frames not working correctly are really my only two beefs with SWTOR. I complain a lot about both but really these are the only 'major' problems with the game. I can wait on minor bug fixes, add-on support, I dont think they need a LFD tool, the UI isnt that great but its playable etc a lot of the stuff ppl complain about is trivial.

 

But having raid frames not showing health correctly and abilities that misfire is kinda game breaking for some people, especially people that like to pvp.

 

Its also possible that the sync error could be whats causing the raid frame health bars to not show accurate info too.

Edited December 26, 2011 by oflow

[scyll]

xcore

 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but the reason why some people don't see this ability delay is because from what I can tell the problem is mostly just with the operative/smuggler. Ive played the other classes and since beta the operative class has had this problem. Its the animations that do it for the most part its very bad when it comes to healing. Sadly I have sent in many reports on this problem throughout beta and never heard of them wanting to fix it I hope they will.

[Raurth]

xcore

 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but the reason why some people don't see this ability delay is because from what I can tell the problem is mostly just with the operative/smuggler. Ive played the other classes and since beta the operative class has had this problem. Its the animations that do it for the most part its very bad when it comes to healing. Sadly I have sent in many reports on this problem throughout beta and never heard of them wanting to fix it I hope they will.

 

I have this issue on my Knight, and it's been brought up numerous times for the Sith equivalent also.

[baznasty]

xcore

 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but the reason why some people don't see this ability delay is because from what I can tell the problem is mostly just with the operative/smuggler. Ive played the other classes and since beta the operative class has had this problem. Its the animations that do it for the most part its very bad when it comes to healing. Sadly I have sent in many reports on this problem throughout beta and never heard of them wanting to fix it I hope they will.

 

I have never played that class. I have played inquisitor, trooper and BH. I notice it on all of them (especially the BH).