Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

[MaximilianPower]

Oh my. Tensions are high.

 

@Hal: I know what it's like to be on the wrong end of a roflstomp...we all do...it's frustrating, I get it. But Drak is not the bad guy here. As mentioned, he's been on both ends of those kinds of games recently. He hasn't simply been steamrolling over Harbinger. And he's done more for the GSF community than anyone else...I can say with confidence that his goal is not to embarrass his opponents.

 

@Drak: in defense of Hal, it sounds like he doesn't watch your stream, and thus doesn't know when it's just the two of you or a full group of 4. Regardless, as I told you last night, the opposition you've faced should be taken as a sign of respect. The GSF community is small, spread thin, and there's only so much quality opposition to go around. Plus, you make your presence known, so naturally everyone figures out pretty quickly where to find you. Every night somebody calls out "Drak's on!" - and that's generally when the premades assemble.

 

I've been in some of those imp premades this week (though I ended up DCing out of a few of them), and (I think, or at least hope) I speak for most folks on those teams: we are not looking to grind you into dust. Rather, what we want is a good, solid, competitive game, and facing you is intended to be a step in that direction. Hasn't worked out of late, granted. 8 v 2 will never work out in your favor, and I agree we should try to balance things a little better. With a couple more quality pilots on your side (Sriia, Verain, etcetera - I'll swap factions too if the situation warrants it) - we can expect some epic matches, not these 1-sided beatdowns that nobody truly enjoys.

Edited September 25, 2015 by MaximilianPower

[Gorgothus]

Oh my. Tensions are high.

 

@Hal: I know what it's like to be on the wrong end of a roflstomp...we all do...it's frustrating, I get it. But Drak is not the bad guy here. As mentioned, he's been on both ends of those kinds of games recently. He hasn't simply been steamrolling over Harbinger. And he's done more for the GSF community than anyone else...I can say with confidence that his goal is not to embarrass his opponents.

 

@Drak: in defense of Hal, it sounds like he doesn't watch your stream, and thus doesn't know when it's just the two of you or a full group of 4. Regardless, as I told you last night, the opposition you've faced should be taken as a sign of respect. The GSF community is small, spread thin, and there's only so much quality opposition to go around. Plus, you make your presence known, so naturally everyone figures out pretty quickly where to find you. Every night somebody calls out "Drak's on!" - and that's generally when the premades assemble.

 

I've been in some of those imp premades this week (though I ended up DCing out of a few of them), and (I think, or at least hope) I speak for most folks on those teams: we are not looking to grind you into dust. Rather, what we want is a good, solid, competitive game, and facing you is intended to be a step in that direction. Hasn't worked out of late, granted. 8 v 2 will never work out in your favor, and I agree we should try to balance things a little better. With a couple more quality pilots on your side (Sriia, Verain, etcetera - I'll swap factions too if the situation warrants it) - we can expect some epic matches, not these 1-sided beatdowns that nobody truly enjoys.

 

I think this guy hit it on the nose.

 

I don't like logging in Imp side and getting hit 50-2 , it happens. Nor do I like getting Imp side and getting 2-50 but it happens. I don't particularly care for Gunships and power ups and what they bring to the game but it's a part of the game and I've adjusted.

 

I love love TDM that ends win or loose with a 5 point gap, I love tug-o-war Capture maps and win or loose by 100 points. However I don't think until they change the game to have some sort of ranking system, it's gonna be a random mix of experienced and new people. Sometimes it'll be a premade imp side and sometimes Pubs and other then looking at the line up and seeing people with default ships, I can still only assume they're new. I can only assume those that multiple ships are experienced.

 

I can say I've stopped over Rep side and talked to Drak and he's really a nice guy. I don't know him personally, but I can tell you one thing he's polite, informative and he's a damn good pilot

[Maulkat]

I was flying pub side all yesterday evening with my guild...for 3 hours, I didn't win a single match. Most were total blow outs by the imps. Then Drakolich and Mika logged on and we were like, "oh good you're here". I didn't get into a single match with him, but started winning suddenly. It's like all the good imp fliers stopped queuing. So he won all his flights, both sides and logged out.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Jedi Covenant has the problem that usually you end up with 2-3 veterans or mediocre players who can't do crap because the team they're on is all new players or players who simply aren't good, so they have no backup and then the whole enemy team focuses on them.

 

That's what usually happens with me, at least. Not a lot still play GSF on Jedi Cov, the bug has killed queue there, and I don't have the internet to play on Harbinger xD.

 

Also, hey Tobias/Zuck

 

~ Eudoxia

Edited September 26, 2015 by FlavivsAetivs

[ShallowHal]

Lets talk a little about what happened last night then shall we.

 

For the last 2-3 weeks Siraka and Vexxial have been putting together full 8 man ops teams and syncying theirs queue's with my stream to make sure they fight us. This week most of my team has been either busy or out of town so it was just MIkaboshi and I duo queueing for this week. Spoilers here we've been getting slauthered this week.

 

I think that's a good thing. I think you should see how the other half lives from time to time. Maybe you'll curtail your 4 man slaughterhouse teams a little more often.

 

By the way, all of that violin music above has nothing to do with last night. There were no 8 man ops teams going against you last night when I was playing you.

 

They have still been queueing 8 player premades vs just the 2 of us all week.

 

I guess what's good for the goose isn't so good for the gander.

 

Last night Zyrieas had been watching the stream this week and decided to come help us so we would have at least 3 vs 8. We fully expected them to be there again as I even checked Empire side before I started streaming and many of the players that we had been fighting all week were online.

 

We queue'd up and didn't hit them. We played EXACTLY 4 games on Republic side. They were so freaking one sided we immediately swapped factions. We played one Empire game which was pretty good, but since the Republic had been complaining that they had been getting slauthered all day by huge premades we didn't want to keep playing that faction and make their days even worse so we called it a night a whole 90 mins early.

 

So you're saying you played five games all last night with Mika?

 

Now your second point is that we were winning by huge margins, without pulling punches. Well I hate to break your bubble but if you watch the video of us playing we start almost every game by saying "I guess I play X ship because it still needs requisition" and Mikaboshi playing a freaking Starguard..

 

Here is the freaking video of lasts nights stream if you don't believe me.

 

As for not letting people turning satellites after doing a 2 week experiment of letting people take satellites and asking them what they thought of it. I have yet to encounter one positive response, it's been nothing but negative from the extra players on my side ************ that were being carebears to the enemies we do it too coming over and yelling at me for being condescending.

 

I don't see where the support of people who like slaughterhouse matches matters one lick to me. They're just as much a part of the problem as your pre-mades were last night.

 

Mikaboshi and I are friends and we play together that should be enough.

 

Not really. Why don't you guys make your own individual 4 man groups if you absolutely have to make sure you're grouped with other good players just to play? Then maybe you'd play against each other once in a while in a faction vs faction battle. Or maybe you'd be in separate battles altogether. Is that really *so* bad?

 

Now I definitely don't have to give you a reason on who I play with, but hell I'm feeling generous today lets show you some screenshots of this weeks games.

 

I see you left out the scoreboards for every game I was in. I guess you didn't want to show those.

 

As you can see from those 5 games this week I have to play with good players to keep up with an army like that. In fact they have specifically challenged me to put together an 8 man team to fight them, which I plan to do.

 

I think it's great they're building 8 man teams to fight you.

 

Alright so that was a long winded explanation but please stop judging me when everything I do is so transparent. I freaking record all of my gameplay, you can go check out exactly what happened whenever you want on my twitch page.

 

I'm not judging you on the matches where you have to sweat a little. I'm talking about all the other matches that you seem to conveniently forget about because of FIVE matches all week where you didn't roll over people like you're used to.

 

Who knows man maybe if people keep posting stuff like you did today maybe I'll just stop caring about the community.

 

I'm sorry that the truth is so bothersome to you

Edited September 26, 2015 by ShallowHal

[ShallowHal]

ShallowHal in this instance is only talking from his PERSONAL experience and how HE felt during the matches last night. He doesn't care about any of the justifications for why you played how you did

 

That's not true. I do care about his response. I'm disappointed in him that telling it exactly the way it was got him so irate though.

 

and he certainly doesn't need to click through your stream

 

I only have so much time in a day. I'm not going to watch someone else play when I could be playing myself instead.

 

His sentiments are no doubt echoed across the servers whenever a powerful premade comes to play. Some people realize this is the nature of the game

 

I realize that it's the nature of the game. I just don't think that Drakolich's mini-rivalries should dictate how he plays against everybody else though.

 

I think that this competitive pvp minigame of ours being situated within a community of mostly KOTOR fans who expect to be the hero

 

I've played enough warzones and GSF to know that I'm not going to be the hero all the time. If that's what I really wanted, I'd just play PVE all the time and convince myself that I'm great.

 

I can understand why many do not last very long in this environment, and why the sentiment towards GSF can be so hateful.

 

The question is, do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem?

 

By coming here to say this he has decided not to suffer in silence the way a lot of GSF players do.

 

I didn't suffer that much. After all, I kept queuing anyway, knowing that I was going to die a bunch of times. I just think the whole logic of the thing is ridiculous. I could go do dailies every day on my 60 and feel invincible, but that isn't fun for me. I want there to be a challenge, but I also want that challenge to be reasonable. And this whole game of oneupsmanship because other people dare create overpowered groups just like the one Drakolich plays with all the time doesn't fly with me.

Edited September 26, 2015 by ShallowHal

[caederon]

There is only one real solution to this problem, and we cannot enact it directly. A lobby where you can make custom matches, even if it only had the sole function of allowing you to select the players in the match, would solve an enormous amount of GSF's issues. A more robust version would be incredible, and would vault GSF into the post-1998 world of internet game matchmaking.

 

Failing that, we have a lot of bad solutions.

 

Everyone solo queue!

Well... rolling the dice on that is sometimes fun, sometimes (most times) not so fun.

 

NERF PREMADES!

Well... playing GSF as a coordinated team is pretty awesome, and opens up a whole new level of tactical play that solo queuing doesn't deliver. Plus, playing with your friends is kind of a staple key selling point of internet games.

 

NERF GOOD PLAYERS!

Well... hoping good players play down to the level of their competition kind of sucks and is problematic in a lot of ways. Sometimes I even advocate this one. I'll often take out a ship that is not my best in likely blowouts. That usually has little effect. The only real merciful situation in 'aces v. noobs' is for the aces to drop out of the match before it starts because otherwise there's no helping it. Good players should be allowed to play to their ability level, it is what makes the game fun.

 

NERF GUNSHIPS!

This goes without saying.

 

Take A Noob To Work!

We do this. Grouping with inexperienced players from time to time is a good idea, and helps them get acclimated to the game. Many of us employ other methods of teaching the game as well.

 

The Only Winning Move Is Not To Play!

Joshua the computer's lesson from the classic movie WarGames is... not relevant here. We want to play. We want others to play. We lack the tools to ensure every match is a competitive and entertaining venture for all concerned. It's pvp. We want to blow some people to space dust.

 

Maybe we should all make protest signs and march on Bioware's offices demanding a custom match lobby. Once we get out of jail, maybe they'll take pity on us.

 

Despon

[ghosterl]

I think that's a good thing. I think you should see how the other half lives from time to time. Maybe you'll curtail your 4 man slaughterhouse teams a little more often.

 

By the way, all of that violin music above has nothing to do with last night. There were no 8 man ops teams going against you last night when I was playing you.

 

I guess what's good for the goose isn't so good for the gander.

 

I think it's great they're building 8 man teams to fight you.

 

*sniff*

 

I love tthe smell of hypocrisy in the morning. The way you intentionally misread what Drakkolich posted is hilarious, maybe you should approach Alrik and found a pop-psychology support group for poor GSF premade victims.

[Svarthrafn]

This convo is almost as good as when somebody organized a newbie night to introduce new players to ranked pvp and a bunch of ranktards farmed them all night. Edited September 26, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[Verain]

ShallowHal in this instance is only talking from his PERSONAL experience and how HE felt

 

First, I don't care, it's wrong.

Second, no he didn't.

Third, it doesn't matter.

 

Let me expand:

 

First, I don't care because he's in here complaining because he lost, and pretending like that's some *issue with the game*. It isn't. "Guy loses in pvp" happens half the time. That's intended. It's wrong because his feels don't map to game quality or any other thing. He's sad because he lost. He even said he knew how to win, so he's actually just sad because he couldn't get req on a specific character at a specific time because he lacks the skill necessary to do so- and instead of skilling up and/or teaming up, he decides to attack a good player whose name he knows in the hopes that he'll get easier games in the future. Can't win on the field, take it to the forums.

 

Second, he's not talking about his "personal" experience. He says: " you are also part of that problem when you see that the matches are that skewed and keep the team together anyway". This implies that (1) there exists a problem and (2) that Drako is somehow a cause of this problem.

 

(1) is wrong! (2) doesn't apply because (1) doesn't exist. Even if it did, two players queuing together who play the game and have fun is pretty much the whole reason the game exists- that they win versus another team is more than fine, it's great.

 

Third, it doesn't matter because his feelings don't map to game design in the first place.

 

 

He doesn't care about any of the justifications for why you played how you did, and he certainly doesn't need to click through your stream to try to understand that you guys "didn't really mean to" and thus make everything dandy for him.

 

I too disagree that Drako should have offered any apologies. I can only assume he felt the need to because he avidly chooses what to do based on the feelings of others. I assume this vulnerability is why he was targeted. I attempt to fix this by explaining that red ships desire to be destroyed, but to no avail.

 

Whether he "cares" or not, Drako is telling reasons, not justifications.

 

 

I can understand why many do not last very long in this environment, and why the sentiment towards GSF can be so hateful.

 

I'm with you on this. It's a pvp team game, however, and that means the same thing in every place- there is a winner and a loser in each match.

 

By coming here to say this he has decided not to suffer in silence the way a lot of GSF players do.

 

I'd interpret it as like many GSF players, he has opted to complain that he can't level up his alt rather than:

(a) log on to his main

(b) log on to a different alt

© accept that when playing against good players, you get less req per minute

(d) join a team

(e) get good enough

 

Typical IMO, and not worthy of you defense of him. It is a lot more than he deserves.

 

 

 

Hal:

I know you and Mikaboshi like to fly together, but in 90% of matches, that's going to be vast overkill.

Frankly, against true randoms, even one top pilot is overkill. But the pilots aren't choosing that. Drako even mentioned that he has solid competition at that time slot- Vex and Siraka are generating a lot of good rivalry.

 

But importantly- it's great to squish players. It's fun to GSF. That's how we roll. You trying to throw your angst at being unable to level your imperial or your imperial ships or whatever at a certain time is not his fault. It's your fault. All. Your. Fault.

 

 

I didn't see you guys being particularly concerned about balance last night.

 

Interestingly, Drako told you how he swapped sides shortly after. Your response? You ignored it. Instead, you chose to question his statement of playing exactly five games with Mika:

 

So you're saying you played five games all last night with Mika?

 

Of course that is what he meant. He said he played four on pubside and one on impside. Are you asking because this is confusing, or because you couldn't be bothered to open up calc.exe and pump in "4+1=" ?

 

I think that's a good thing. I think you should see how the other half lives from time to time.

 

Drako has lost plenty to overwhelming premades. All of us have. It's frustrating to lose, but it's not a damned design problem. Also, the big difference is, Drako and Mika queueing is two players queuing into anything. Double premades queuing into Drakolich is top players trying to make a really compelling game (if Drako brings the crew) or annoy him into doing so by starting a friendly rivalry. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a very different intention- one is queueing to get a specific match, the other is just queueing into randoms like you.

 

Maybe you'll curtail your 4 man slaughterhouse teams a little more often.

 

First, he clearly pointed out it was a 2 man. Second, I was on vacation part of this week and sick the rest, or I would absolutely have been there. After listening to you, I'm sad I wasn't around to railgun you some. The crushing isn't complete until someone is asking for a gunship nerf on top of banning top players from getting games or trying to make them feel bad for actually being good.

 

 

You then spend the rest of the post with gems like:

 

They're just as much a part of the problem

(attacking Siraka and Vex in the process of getting a team together)

 

Why don't you guys make your own individual 4 man groups if you absolutely have to make sure you're grouped with other good players just to play?

That's how it works. You can't actually raid queue, it's just luck that it works as an 8 man when it does. You can't raid queue, which I think would inform your decision about complaining about raid queues? Also, when we queue two four mans, we sometimes fight one against the other. Other teams see the same things.

 

I see you left out the scoreboards for every game I was in.

Going out on a limb here, it's because he's being nice to you.

 

The question is, do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem?

Good players playing together is how GSF is designed. It's a team pvp game. You don't deserve to win. You don't deserve a node. You don't deserve req. You don't deserve to have a good time.

 

I want there to be a challenge, but I also want that challenge to be reasonable

You are literally complaining about two good pilots queued up that were able to farm your whole team. That's totally reasonable- find three good pilots.

Or just one?

 

And in one of the games, you didn't even allow people to get the token cap of the node before you took it back.

Like I said earlier, you don't deserve a node. If a team keeps a node, be it one node, two nodes, or three, it's because we can't take it back. I know some players like allowing a momentary flip, but it is wildly disrespectful to the players on that team- and apparently now it is encouraging a sense of entitlement? Whatever. You want a node you take that node.

 

 

 

The game can be frustrating. What you should do is queue up with other good players, something you never even mentioned as a possibility. "Whoa, this team game, I can't win, because there's a team queued against me. Holy moly!"

 

 

Anyway, I think it's ludicrous that you are attacking Drako, who helps the community and trains pilots. He posts strats (and seriously, he posts ALL the strats, even when I ask him not to), he tries to queue fair, he switches sides when things get uneven, and he genuinely likes everyone. I know why you are attacking him- you felt bad because you couldn't compete, and you noticed that he actually cares about how people feel, and so you decided you could make him feel bad. That makes me pretty cross man. There's been people historically who run actual farm groups nonstop for hours, but you know they won't care what you say so you don't talk to them.

 

IMO get great. Or get a team.

 

Or get farmed. Whatever.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Verain

[NeverEvar]

Ok, First of all. Drak is playing very competitively and is not holding back very often.

 

But trough to be told...He should`t have to hold back. First it`s his time as well,

 

Second, did you considered the agro he is getting in any ship? Actually any pilot with reputation can tell you that it`s not that funny from time to time, especially when you are flying a casual t2 strike and 2+ good pilots joined the game mid. Everyone want`s to see that sign "Me killed <insert Aces name>

 

Third. Ask yourself what Drako could do? Allow someone to kill him? With the skill gap between the teams even a t3 scout is lethal.

Ok, you mentioned that he did not allow your team to cap....But you know...If Drak defended one node and Mika defended second one... 6 other pilots would taken the node anyway.

 

And why do you judge Drako on the actions of his entire team?

 

And fourth.

 

Actually you don`t need a premade to get a co-ordinated team. If you know the names of your team mates, and you flown with them, and against them a lot of games... They will co-ordinate. Most of the time even without using the ops chat.

 

And one fun fact about Voip...most of the time I`m using it...we aren't even talking about the match.

 

Good player will always know when to swap to what ship and where to be, to make the best impact on the game.

[Lavaar]

Verain, how I have missed your eloquence and grace. It was only earlier today that I lamented the absence of your ruthless and unabashed wisdom upon thy forum walls. It is genuinely refreshing, and despite my colorful language, I say these things without any sarcasm or ill-intent whatsoever.

 

You have, with one glorious post, managed to set the record straight, and cut through all the ******** on this matter. Nobody deserves a damn thing in this game. If you are getting farmed, get better, play harder, find teammates, learn the meta, and slowly climb your way out of the mud to victory. If you are losing, don't complain, don't expect pity, and you sure as hell better not expect others to alter their play style to affect you. If a dominant team decides to "go easy", "give them a sat" or any of the other half-*** mercy measures in a match, then that is entirely their prerogative to do so, but it is not an imperative. Shallowhal, while frustrated, is wrong, plain and simple. He expects people to take pity on him, and he wants to try to shame those in the dominant position into playing fairly because he feels sad that he lost a few games. He doesn't feel he deserves this, and he doesn't think its fair.

 

The feeling I get here is that most people at the top level in this game agree with us on this point, at least to some degree or another. Which is why I find it perplexing that in the past little while I have heard a myriad of complaints about myself and my friends being "unfair" from some of the last people who should ever be complaining about such a thing. I've seen attempts to shame me publicly in harbinger GSF chat for it by a pilot who sees no problem in tagging along with a dominant premade in order to focus a player that they do not personally agree with to prove a point. I've heard whining on the stream about "playing without a goalie" from a pilot who never helps out anyone other than his friends, even when other players ask for his help. I've even had a pilot who, on one server, has lost only 50 games out of over 1500 come find me and personally imply that queing as a large group against a smaller group is unsportsmanlike. I am quite frankly tired of the hypocrisy around here. If Hal is going to get hate on for complaining about being overwhelmed by some of the same pilots that have been hating on me for being overwhelming lately, then I feel that perhaps we are dealing with some bizarre form of community groupthink.

 

My hope is that this is simply the frustrations and the subsequent outbursts that are born of neglect that we feel due to the inattention of our absent devs, and that one glorious day they will return and solve all of our problems, but at this point, I am not holding my breath.

 

Happy flying!

Edited September 26, 2015 by Lavaar

[Archonitek]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7316000&postcount=37

 

Ahhh, back in the day...

[caederon]

Here are three weird facts that might change your mind about premades:

 

1. When both sides are fielding double premades, and they are actively trying to queue-sync, that means it is very likely that the sixteen best players on the server are playing against each other and not against hapless 2-shippers. Less experienced pilots are then left to engage in matches more appropriate to their skill level.

 

2. It takes no special qualifications to form a premade, or to join one! Anyone can do it. Any player can find several friends or even several enemies to invite to a group. If they accept, then you are IN A PREMADE! You will find that this in itself does not grant you any special powers, but does convey some level of certainty about who you will be getting into a match with.

 

3. Top pilots will very often give you a spot in an impromptu premade if you ask. This is a good chance for you to pick their brains and get advice, and also to have the security that you will be flying with one or more good players.

 

This message has been brought to you by Players On Premades, a non-profit taskforce dedicated to educating anyone who goes into the GSF channel and shouts incoherently about premades ruining things.

 

Despon

Edited September 26, 2015 by caederon

[btbarrett]

First off, I think it is probably in everyone's best interest if we tone down the rhetoric a smidge. The constant knock against ranked ground PvP is that the community is so toxic that it makes entry into that arena distasteful for all but the most resilient (or douchiest) players: I doubt any of us want to see that happen in GSF.

 

I understand that tensions run high when you get in a match and got ROFLstomped. Goodness knows I have been on the losing end of 50-4 matches or 1000-8 matches before and I agree that they are no fun. Unfortunately, it is just part of the game. I think we ought to make a concerted effort when were are on the losing end of an butt-whoopin' to just say "GG" and move on.

 

To Hal, if you are sick of running into Drak's premade there is a very easy solution: watch his stream and simply queue when he is in a match. Since Drak seems to stream all of his flight time, you could conceivably never have to queue against him again, if you were so inclined. If you aren't able to watch a stream AND play, I bet there is someone in GSF chat who can who will be able to assist you. Hell, you could wait on the pop, ask the people in the match if it is against Drak, and then make a decision on whether you wanted to take it or not.

 

I should say that I don't think that this is the best way to get better. Personally, I think that when you know you are going to get a beatdown you should focus on developing some skill during the match. Back when I was first starting out on Shadowlands we had a double premade of skilled pilots who played on a nightly basis. It sucked to lose game after game and I definitely cursed them under my breath a few times, but I also took those matches as an opportunity to learn how to be evasive or harass gunships. If you can't stomach a lopsided defeat (there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that) you can just back out of the game. I know that that isn't ideal, but it is far better than working yourself into a lather.

 

What isn't fair is to expect skilled players to handicap their own enjoyment of the game for your sake. I had a game on Harbinger this week where my group of random solo-queuers won a match 50-7. After the match a player from the opposing team logged over and berated us for not suiciding our ships and flying something worse: to me that is totally unreasonable. To people who queue in premades, not being able to queue with their friends is unreasonable

[RickDagles]

I haven't read all of the walls of posts here because I'm not incredibly interested in game politics, but I just wanted to clear the air a bit. I watched the stream to coordinate queues because I wanted a good challenge. I gathered some players and made a premade because I wanted to play the game to the most of its ability. I am 100% not sorry for stacking teams because Drakolich can (and HAS) done so almost since the game launched. I personally would be flattered by the attempts if someone did this to me. I would relish the challenge, regroup, and come back even stronger (which he has done). It's about time Drak lost some games, and I'm glad to be part of a team that could accomplish it. These last few weeks have been some of the most fun games I've ever had, win or lose. I'm really glad that most of the good players have moved to Harbinger. And I think games like these are going to continue for months to come. Edited September 26, 2015 by RickDagles

[ShallowHal]

There is only one real solution to this problem, and we cannot enact it directly.

 

Of course, and that solution is never coming.

 

The Only Winning Move Is Not To Play!

 

Well, I think that a lot of people do come to that conclusion. I don't think anybody wants that though, not Drakolich and not me. The question is, how do you keep a new player wanting to keep playing when he's playing with two hands behind his back?

 

1. He doesn't really understand all the controls.

2. His ship is much easier to kill than the people he's facing.

 

I'm glad you participated in this thread. You group with everybody. You've grouped with me and you've grouped with many other people that could hardly be considered aces. I think your stance of "Let them cap a node, more comms for every one" is exactly the right stance. I'm disappointed, but not surprised to see that the people that are grouping with Drakolich's team aren't up for that, because I think that it's an important step for the new player to understand that he isn't dying because he is being griefed.

 

I think your approach to the game is spot on and I wish more people felt the way you do.

[ShallowHal]

*sniff*

 

I love tthe smell of hypocrisy in the morning.

 

So do I.

 

By the way, I was invited to an 8 man ops group last night comprised of some of the members of the ops group Drak was complaining about. We were hardly a powerhouse. In fact, I felt like I was letting them down in a lot of the matches. But they didn't raze me for it. I did what I could do, ended up not playing in ships where I was more problem than solution, and had a good time, even though we won some and lost some.

 

And you know what? When that group got into a match that was very one-sided and we were three capping the nodes, two of those people told the guy at the third node to leave it alone. He was rather resistant to the idea, but eventually went along.

Edited September 26, 2015 by ShallowHal

[Danylia]

[ShallowHal]

First, I don't care because he's in here complaining because he lost, and pretending like that's some *issue with the game*.

 

I lose all the time. I have no issue with losing. But thank you for guessing my intent.

 

He couldn't get req on a specific character at a specific time because he lacks the skill necessary to do so

 

Oh please. Let us not continue with the absurd notion that it is 100% skill and 0% equipment that dictates the outcomes of these matches. I know some of you hold onto that myth very tightly, but as anybody who is leveling up a new ship says in chat all the time, it just ain't so.

 

and instead of skilling up and/or teaming up

 

I'm better now that I was a month ago. I am nowhere near as good as Drakolich and have zero problem saying as much. On a fully upgraded ship, he'd still slaughter me. I have a long way to go in terms of learning how to deal with specific situations (in particular, how to counter skilled scouts coming at you while you are in a bomber or a gunship, not to mention becoming a competent scout pilot myself, which I am not remotely yet).

 

Second, he's not talking about his "personal" experience. He says: " you are also part of that problem when you see that the matches are that skewed and keep the team together anyway". This implies that (1) there exists a problem and (2) that Drako is somehow a cause of this problem.

 

There is a problem and yes, I do think Drakolich and his group are part of that problem based on how I've observed how his team plays in a tilted match as opposed to how a team with Despon would play. I think the Despon way is the superior way to go and I feel that way especially when I'm on the team that is benefitting from the tilt. I feel better about the match knowing that we gave people a chance to work on basic skills like blowing up defense drones and capping satellites and getting medals for it. Better for them, better for us.

 

I too disagree that Drako should have offered any apologies.

 

I disagree as well. What I posted is only my opinion and I wasn't looking for an apology from him. If he wants to play the way he wants to play, there's certainly nothing I can do about it. I am only endorsing the notion that the game benefits from groups being mixed - some very good pilots, some OK pilots, and even some very new pilots and that the game is hurt by tilted matches. And since there will not be a solution coming from EA, it falls on the players who play the game to come up with the best solution they can on their own.

 

I'd interpret it as like many GSF players, he has opted to complain that he can't level up his alt rather than:

(a) log on to his main

(b) log on to a different alt

© accept that when playing against good players, you get less req per minute

(d) join a team

(e) get good enough

 

I don't have an Imp main that has a fully upgraded ship yet. For that matter, I don't have a Pub main that has a fully upgraded ship yet either, although I have a couple that have ships that can be competitive in matches like that. But I'm not a frontrunner.

 

I don't think 100% of those groups exist because Drakolich invited every one of them to play with him. I think they exist because once they know his group is on, they log onto their alts looking for easy req. I could do that too, but I'm not really interested in beating down overmatched teams.

 

But importantly- it's great to squish players.

 

I know that a lot of you feel that way. I can tell by how you play, how you camp the spawn points against overmatched teams, and how some of you target the same player repeatedly.

 

Interestingly, Drako told you how he swapped sides shortly after. Your response? You ignored it.

 

Well, since I know that he played more than the five games he talked about, I didn't particularly care to focus on that point. I know he played more than those five games and so does he.

 

Drako has lost plenty to overwhelming premades. All of us have. It's frustrating to lose, but it's not a damned design problem. Also, the big difference is, Drako and Mika queueing is two players queuing into anything. Double premades queuing into Drakolich is top players trying to make a really compelling game (if Drako brings the crew) or annoy him into doing so by starting a friendly rivalry. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a very different intention- one is queueing to get a specific match, the other is just queueing into randoms like you.

 

And like I said, I think it's a great thing that people are building teams to fight him.

 

First, he clearly pointed out it was a 2 man. Second, I was on vacation part of this week and sick the rest, or I would absolutely have been there. After listening to you, I'm sad I wasn't around to railgun you some. The crushing isn't complete until someone is asking for a gunship nerf on top of banning top players from getting games or trying to make them feel bad for actually being good.

 

Look, it's already clear that you are one of the players that sees nothing wrong with beating new players into submission. We get that. I'll never convince you that my position is right and you'll never convince me your position is right. But since you like throwing around the straw men, I am not one of those people asking for a gunship nerf or banning people and I definitely don't think anybody should feel bad about being good.

 

The game can be frustrating. What you should do is queue up with other good players, something you never even mentioned as a possibility. "Whoa, this team game, I can't win, because there's a team queued against me. Holy moly!"

 

I have. But honestly, sometimes players want to group with other good players when they see the tilt is going the other way. It's not their responsibility to babysit me. I solo queue a lot. If I get invited to group or I get a response from asking if there are any openings on the GSF channel, I appreciate them making space for me because I know they could find better players to play with.

 

Anyway, I think it's ludicrous that you are attacking Drako, who helps the community and trains pilots.

 

I agree. He does help the community. I didn't know about the training pilots part, but that doesn't surprise me. Heck, I even watched one of his videos yesterday playing on a Rampart and compared it to how I play on a Rampart in a Domination match to see what things I should be doing differently.

 

And I don't view my original post as an attack. I was specifically referring to something I personally say while I was playing one night and how it dovetailed with this thread.

Edited September 26, 2015 by ShallowHal

[ShallowHal]

I am 100% not sorry for stacking teams because Drakolich can (and HAS) done so almost since the game launched. I personally would be flattered by the attempts if someone did this to me. I would relish the challenge, regroup, and come back even stronger (which he has done). It's about time Drak lost some games, and I'm glad to be part of a team that could accomplish it. These last few weeks have been some of the most fun games I've ever had, win or lose. I'm really glad that most of the good players have moved to Harbinger. And I think games like these are going to continue for months to come.

 

Well stated. In fact, I suspect we were in the same group last night because some of this dovetails with what we discussed in the group.

[Verain]

I don't think anyone is sad that great pilots are queuing. But it is a bit different- queuing multiple groups when one known guy is flying will shut that guy down until he brings a bunch of peeps to make the fights fair. That's different than just queuing with friends at some arbitrary time. Both are totally fine though!

 

Importantly, while there's enough GSFers to get pops pretty much any time (especially on Harb- it got a bunch of people switching for ground game reasons, on top of it always being populous, on top of having a solid GSF core to begin with, meaning it's the go-to place for GSF now), there aren't enough of the solid pilots needed to make good GSF games 24/7. So clearly syncing playtimes has to happen to some degree anyway.

[MaximilianPower]

Well stated. In fact, I suspect we were in the same group last night because some of this dovetails with what we discussed in the group.

 

Indeed, Hal, you were. RickDagles = Siraka...most of the games you were in with me, Siraka was there too.

 

So, OK, there may be a little vitriol flying around here, but stepping back a bit: doesn't this entire situation actually reflect well on the state of GSF? This kind of tension just means we care. We still care! We've been completely neglected by the devs nearly since launch, desperately trying to keep our little minigame afloat...and somehow, incredibly, the matches seem to be better, and the banter livelier, than ever. I've been playing GSF since beta, and I'm not sure I've seen games as consistently entertaining as those I've participated in over the past few weeks.

 

Devs - are you reading this?* Imagine the kind of GSF community growth you'd see if we actually got a handful of QoL improvements/bug fixes/new...well, anything.

 

* I mean, no, of course they aren't, but you guys get the point

[ShallowHal]

Indeed, Hal, you were. RickDagles = Siraka...most of the games you were in with me, Siraka was there too.

 

So, OK, there may be a little vitriol flying around here, but stepping back a bit: doesn't this entire situation actually reflect well on the state of GSF? This kind of tension just means we care. We still care! We've been completely neglected by the devs nearly since launch, desperately trying to keep our little minigame afloat...and somehow, incredibly, the matches seem to be better, and the banter livelier, than ever. I've been playing GSF since beta, and I'm not sure I've seen games as consistently entertaining as those I've participated in over the past few weeks.

 

Devs - are you reading this?* Imagine the kind of GSF community growth you'd see if we actually got a handful of QoL improvements/bug fixes/new...well, anything.

 

* I mean, no, of course they aren't, but you guys get the point

 

Yes. The caring is why I'm currently more interested in this aspect of the game than any other. In wargames and world PVP, guys loved to grief the little guy. Inherently within the design of the game, you will be a little guy for a long time until you built up enough ship req. So it's a law of the jungle thing and you have to accept that as part of the deal. Still, I maintain there are more nice people playing this game than any of the other subsegments of the game (ops, raids, warzones, etc.) And so I want this to be a welcoming community for the new person who needs help getting from point A to point B before he gets frustrated and quits.

 

I've already gone through my rough period and am still going through it leveling up new alts, so I understand that's just part off the way it is. But people who are trying it out for the first time wont'.

 

And on that note, I think I've officially way over-contributed to this thread. It's up to other people to decide the best way to make people want to stick through the tough times.

Edited September 28, 2015 by ShallowHal

[Gorgothus]

I know you guys are a tight nit group so I can only add my wisdom from being a gamer since before the gaming PC was invented and hope you all don't get offended.

 

There's really no sense attacking any single player for the outcomes of the matches because they are using the tools set forth by the devs who make the product.

 

There's no rules against x number of players getting into groups, using some sort of VoiP and coordinating their game against the opponent. A lot of FPS, Sims and MMO's do the same when it comes to PvP content. So all in all, Draco is not doing anything out of the ordinary for this game as ive seen in games over the last few decades.

 

Here's where your gonna hate me...

 

What the devs could of done, or in my opinion should of done. They should of put everybody on the same playing field..period. Other than some minor choices say like loading out with Protons this round and maybe next flight Ill load up Thermite...maybe I"ll take concussions on my bomber instead of Ions, this round I'll fly strike and maybe i'll fly scout if there's a lot of gunships"

 

As soon as Bioware decided to really change the playing field by putting Power-ups, Crew-choices, ordnance layouts that have different levels trees they already separated the hard-core from the new player. They separated others simply because the majority of players still don't visit forums, they go on their best educated guess as to what weapon/crew/layout to pick.

 

They separated the players because simply put, no matter what or how YOU feel about the game or how YOU feel another player should try harder, a gamers experience is still subjective. So no matter what you say, L2P or the game is fine, stick through it and level up some ships..it really seriously doesn't matter to everybody else. If their experience is they get swamped consistently on any server before they can reach that sweet spot (more on this) they might not stick around and I think we can all agree, we want more players, faster ques and diversity.

 

So what's this sweet point? Well in a lot of games were they add in all the extra nonsense, power ups, levels , and other choices, it's when you've finally committed to memory where all the power ups spawn and their times, what ship or fighter or weapon layout has the best dps when out fitted a certain way and you've finally mastered all your components.

 

At this point, you are on par with the "ACEs" in all respect except for the other variables which can be out of your ability or control... Do you have all the power ups memorized, are you on VoiP and coordinating your attacks, do you have crappy connection and bogged down PC..other things that can take you far from that sweet spot.

 

Remember the days of having a sweet PC and crappy internet 28.8 dial up? Now against other like/similar players you faired pretty well, ,perhaps even pulling the top of the charts on a regular basis until that guy. Until that is "that" guy showed up with his T1 line. All of a sudden the playing field has been tipped. Damn low ping bastard would frag you and all your teammates and all you see was the wisps of his shadow as he moved onto other targets because to him, you were literally standing still.

 

Well that's what happens in GSF, you get a ship and then you have to take time to level that ship and it's components, perhaps you spent points on bad choice and now you need to rework your choice, or perhaps you just want to see if those other choices suit your style better. All this while, those low ping bastards flying around in their mastered ships see "target scout, target bomber etc" I hope you can agree because a mastered ship is miles more powerful than a stock ship, not including the other factors.

 

Here's my question though, what if your first ship , was just as good as the 6 ships that the other guy purchased right out of the box, so at this point, other than the given variables like "scouts are generally fasters ships, Bombers have more armor" it all came down to your skill and the inevitable question of your PC/internet connection.

 

What if there was no power ups that allowed ships to practically melt anybody or turn the tide in favor for those who like to memory map them and or control their spawning locations. Could you still handle this?

 

Even with VoiP, what if premades didn't have any more advantage over a group of 8 players lacking any sort of communication other than the pilot behind the wheel. Personally I think matches could go a different way. Hell, you'd see a lot more strike ships flying and getting kills I'm betting.

 

They could of changed the current reward of making monster ships as given rewards to long term players other ways ;

1. Ship skins to distinguish veteran players

2. The same system of using rec to purchase more ships

3. paint jobs, engine colors, beams could of taken off the cartel market (since I hear they don't sell anyway) and rewarded to veteran pilots

4. Crew members Co pilots for just flavor after all , who wants to hear Mako whine all the time even if she is the best choice for X ship

5. Plus more if you put your mind to it.

 

Wouldn't you all rather play a game where it boiled down to your ability vs who the guy who got the power up with the gun that's been leveled up to shoot 20 targets, clips through walls and cooks cheeseburger and hits so hard it deletes the targets account?

 

So to end my rant what started out coherently and as usual fell apart after the first paragraph, it's really not anybody's fault that any given player in GSF can do what they do, it's the game given to us.

 

Either you like it or don't. Your mileage may vary. Is it the best space fighter game? probably not, is it just another game, yup. You can try to make changes by request or suggestion but you cant just come and say hey "x players are better because they used what they have better" that just doesn't make sense and its not really helpful.

 

I'd like to see changes in GSF to keep it going, might not happen I don't know. However I don't blame any single player or set of players for using the game to their advantage or lack there of. If it gets old, I have two choices ...move on ...or keep reaching for that sweet spot.