Why Pre-made raid groups and fully equip ships, actually harm GSF and PvP matches.

[nyghtrunner]

Ah, the usual mass of imperious demands to be used as an excuse to ignore a point. How cute.

Ahhh... Avoiding the questions. How cute.

 

Your shrill indignant cry and scoffing at the idea that repeatedly roflstomping people is an issue would seem to indicate I am close to the mark.

Funny that you repeatedly point to the one phrase, but ignore everything else I said. Well played.

 

Though I do know something about you.

No, you really don't. If you did, you might know that I often hop in a BB and just go fly around, or just sit at a sat and go AFK, or hop in an Imperium/Clarion, or a Bloodpoint in matches that are going to be roflstomps. You'd know that I will not always go for the kill shot, and let people run away. Or lock missiles and not loose. Or any of a billion other things I usually do in lopsided matches to avoid spawn camping or ROFLstomping. You know NOTHING about me. But still felt compelled to come at me, bro. Not the other way around.

 

I know you presume people complaining about roflstomping want "wins handed to them".

Again, harping on the one thing I said in a couple of paragraphs, and ignoring everything else. The one phrase was totally not even my larger point, but whatever, hoss.

 

Since I did not recall anyone saying they wanted that (closest I've been able to find on this thread is a "chance" at a win by the OP) I concluded it was something you attribute to those people since it is what you would do if you were them and it makes it easy to summarily dismiss that sort of complaint.

So I guess you didn't bother to look back through some of my posts where I said that getting completely curb stomped sucks, but it happens, even to us vets. And I guess you never talked to anyone who I've flown with where at the beginning of the match, I've just said, "I'm going to just go fly obstacle courses for this one. Call me if it gets close."

 

You're right. There's a bit of truth to this, but it has very little to do with GSF, and has a lot more to do with my thoughts on "participation awards" and the "everyone bats, and we don't keep score" stuff that goes on in society today. It's a larger thought on our society as a whole that we should reward mediocrity, and that nothing should have to be worked at.

 

I will state this quite plainly. In big letters, 1 word at a time, and hopefully this will sink in.

 

YOU.

KNOW.

NOTHING.

ABOUT.

ME.

 

(It is also amusing that I made a posting over 12 hours before yours complaining about roflstomping and yet noting that winning wasn't the important thing, having fun was and even being on the winning side of a roflstomp was not desirable or fun... Sometimes it helps to pay attention. Oh wait, that would get in the way of your Narrative of sneering dismissal of those icky people who disagree with you. My bad.)

It's amusing that you even think I was talking to you or responding to you, rather than ShallowHal or the person who my post was far more directed at, Lenduul. I guess since the post you made 12 hours before on the different page that I barely glanced at was one I should have paid more attention to. I'll not ignore you in the future.

 

I'll also make heavy use of the @ so your little twitter brain can actually tell a bit more who I'm responding to.

 

Actually, check that. I will completely ignore you in the future.

 

Getting the respect you deserve instead of what you desire?

I could care less about getting your respect, friend. And believe me, you have none of mine with your passive aggressive, self righteous, self serving BS.

 

Too bad.

Isn't it though?

 

Keep crushing people over and over and they will not bother queuing anymore. Despite any "tutorials" or "advice" or "taking under wing" and so on as you imperiously demand above. That is a problem contingent on the behavior of those doing the crushing, not those being crushed. I guess the people who are not you (despite your sneering at those who call those definitely not you types on their behavior) will eventually have to find someone else to abuse.

See above. Again. You don't know the first thing about me. Even your presumption is false. #CheckYourPrivilege (Sorry, I'm not used to this Twitter lingo. Did I use the right pound sign?)

 

Oh well.

Indeed.

 

Oh look, an edit with an attempt at a parting shot and more like a repeat of the imperious demands above. Though perhaps I should be heartened that you overrode the "skim until offended" impulse if only to find another thing to be offended at.

Should I not edit? My bad, bro. I didn't know the rules of this cute little passive aggressive game we were playing. Next time, I'll just say what I really think of you, and leave it at that.

 

 

Unlikely.

Yeah, you're only interested in offense. I see that now. You don't give a dam about having a serious conversation.

 

 

Sorry, my view isn't "you need to stop playing" it's "people will stop playing if this keeps happening". No more, no less. Though I thought you denied you were part of the roflstomping problem...

See, that's another point at which you're wrong. Your solution that I pull punches is something I already do in most circumstances. Something you might actually know if you knew anything about me, rather than taking 1 phrase, and projecting all over it. What is it they say about assuming? Something about making an ***....

 

If I'm already pulling punches, or going AFK, the logical next step is for me to simply stop flying. And I'm sure that will solve this entire problem, right? If all the vets stop flying (or is it just stop flying together?), that will certainly increase the population, #AmIRite?

 

Maybe this will sink in on the third try, but I doubt it:

You're right, because with your passive aggressiveness in your first response, you already put a sour taste in my mouth. So I've already discounted, HEAVILY, everything you have to say, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

While it is not imperative that pre-mades and "pros" ease off when they find themselves facing hopelessly outmatched teams, it is also not imperative that outmatched players continue queuing up to be good little target drones for ye gods of GSF.

You're right. But we have gone over this many, many times on these forums. And I for one, am no longer interested in telling people how to queue. I guess the one phrase where I said something about wins being handed to newbs just set you off so bad, that your little brain couldn't grasp the idea that:

I'm no longer interested in telling vets how to fly.

I guess in this, it never even occurred to you that I'm more or less on your side, but I have come to the realization that I cannot change the way people fly.

 

Yes, I've noticed suggestions being made and seen them be summarily dismissed like your "be nicer" sneer.

I may have said it in a condescending tone, which at this point, I fully believe you deserve, but is that not largely what this is about? The idea that we should all just come together, sing kumbaya, and be nicer to each other? I can only do this for myself. And I am not interested in telling people how they can or can't have fun in a flipping game. What part of this do you NOT understand?

 

Enjoy the queues.

And you have the nerve to lecture me about parting shots? Get over yourself.

[caederon]

1. Not all components are equal and the new players have no idea which ones are better.

Completely true. Fortunately there are numerous guides, one even stickied at the top of this forum, that cursory internet searching skills and modest effort can discover. Or, people could communicate with their fellow humans in a manner whereby answers to their questions are revealed by making a plea for information to those in the know. Judging by the discourse in General chat most days (or even here in this thread, lately), I suppose that's harder than I think, but GSF pilots are not miserly gatekeepers of knowledge. We will talk your ear off about this build or that tactic.

 

2. A lot of ships start with components that are inferior, most notably rapid fire lasers. Thus, they could easily waste 33,500 requisition on a full upgrade of rapid fire lasers (e.g. my original Novadive). The developers could switch out the starting components to the most popular end components to solve this problem.

That would be the ideal solution. Since it won't happen, it comes down to people being a little proactive in asking for advice, and then believing and acting upon that advice when it is received (or trusting in the wisdom of the build guides)

 

It takes less than 30 matches to take a stock ship from its humble roots to a very effective, competitive machine.

 

I recently have been leveling an alt, on which I have been playing the T2 scout (Sting/Flashfire) a lot, as I want to improve my skills on that ship. If you start GSFing after you have reached lvl10, get the intro mission from the PvP box, and play the tutorial + one match of GSF, you will have enough fleet req to buy a T2 scout. Since I have prior knowledge (which could be obtained by neophytes by asking 'what components are best?' or looking up a guide) I had a plan for which components to buy and upgrade. At 35 matches, I am averaging ~55k damage, 10 kills, 8 assists. The ship has its most vital upgrades. It did not take an enormous investment of time to get it to that point.

 

Knowing, as always, is half the battle. If you know which ships are better, and are wiling to accept the collected wisdom of people who have played thousands of games, you can progress really quickly.

 

If you are the sort of person that has to figure out everything for yourself and deny conventional wisdom, good luck. In that case, more power to you if you succeed, but it's going to be tough, so don't be thin skinned about it.

 

Educating new players and giving them the tools to succeed is the best way to help them. Spouting insane rhetoric about how four people lay waste to entire servers, demoralizing them and salting the earth behind them is not the best way to help anyone.

 

Despon

Edited September 30, 2015 by caederon

[Verain]

To me progression is overrated in PVP

 

And you aren't alone. But you'll notice a great deal of games have this, often with smashing success. If you are pitching an idea, saying you gain levels in pvp makes it like WoW- which had 12 megasubs at its peak, and likely up to 3 million of them were primarily pvp at some point- in a pvp system that has ALWAYS had progression. Or like Clash of Clans, which has at least 10 million active players and possibly quadruple that, makes a half a million a day, and is nothing BUT progression based pvp.

 

I'm not saying that these games are better for having that, or holding it up. I'm explaining why you'll see it in games where it could be done without it.

 

Also if "stock ramps crazy fast" then whats the point just unlock everything but we know this is not true; since I have been back I have leveled four alts from 1 to 60 and have yet to master one ship on any of them.

 

First, stock ramps CRAZY fast. For 3500 req, you halve or reduce greatly the energy cost of your escape, and take its cooldown down by 5 seconds- this definitely "doubles" your ability to escape. Your next upgrade is a 10% boost to turning or speed or something minor, and costs about triple again what you just paid. That final upgrade is a rounding error compared to the first. Mastering a quad laser costs 43500 req. The first 1000 gives you an 8% steady state boost. The next 2500 gives you a 5% range boost. The next 5000 gives you 5% damage. This is a 15-19% damage boost for 8500 req. Your next upgrade is a massive 10k, and gives you about 4% damage boost by critting 8% more often, finished off by 15k for like 16% hull damage. So first you pay like 8500 for a 15% boost, then you pay 25000 for a 12% boost or so.

 

With a couple glaring exceptions- armor pen on lasers, the final talent of TT, ion railgun aoe- you get MOST of your upgrades for peanuts, and then spend the rest of your unmastered life getting these relatively *minor* talents.

 

So yes, stock ramps real fast. And don't ask why- my whole point was telling you why!

 

And your experience with never mastering ships is odd to me, to say the least. I've mastered more ships than I can easily compute. But again, it's not about stock and mastered- no one plays stock, and everyone who plays a lot plays mastered, and in the middle is a decent progression ramp where you have the vast majority of the numerical effect from your upgrades already.

 

If the Devs wanted some kind of "progression" it should only be acquiring ships but once you get that ship all of it is open to you. This will show all; losses are not based on gear but on skill.

 

Again, it's ok to not like this. But don't pretend it doesn't have effects, or you wouldn't see it in every game. Game losses are not, for the most part, based on gear. Noobs versus noobs, the gear is a minor boost. Noobs versus vets, the gear is irrelevant entirely. Vets versus vets the gear matters more, but these are also the players well versed in being reqed up, etc.

 

The reward for playing PVP is the PVP; not getting more powerful but getting better skilled at it.

 

That's not true. Play more, get better. The players who have played thousands of games are vastly better than the players who have not done that thing. The skill difference is instantly visible.

 

We mostly queue up daily because we love the game mode not just for rewards.

 

Then why not spam play on Saturday and ignore all the other days, or something? Again, if dailies didn't work, they wouldn't be in all the damned games.

 

Speaking of rewards what would be so bad in just getting cosmetics and PVE rewards in GSF?

 

Well, I explained it from a perspective that I assume maps to the design, but in general, I'll say that it's good that you get your experience metered out. Pointing to guild wars 2, or another game that doesn't do this, just shows that a game can be made without a lot of gating- and I really doubt that anyone doubts this. We all grew up playing games that didn't do this stuff or couldn't, after all. Note that guild wars 2 absolutely has a solid conversion rate, and that it offers content that isn't just pvp as well- and, of course, the game itself has a history of being "buy to play". GSF is fundamentally free to play, so they used a different model.

 

 

Like i said progression/leveling is overrated in PVP, "must level" is an old MMO thinking.

 

Its a classic RPG thinking, and it's absolutely present in games now and for the forseeable future. But it's ok to not like that, but *don't ignore the reality that this is absolutely an MMO*.

 

 

Again progressing your ship should not be needed in PVP if they wanted to monetize GSF a better answer should be more ship skins, more slots on your bar and cosmetics. This also would generate a demand for cash spending, while keeping it entirely optional.

 

They *have* cosmetic stuff for cartel coins. But presumably they made a choice to offer not just those things. And again- they could have added more options for coins, and gotten that cash. We keep asking them to.

 

 

I agree, then they should just open it up let the skill show.

 

Skill shows. More than anything. This game is ludicrously skill based- much of this thread is players who know that arguing with other players who know that, about the front facing game experience.

 

 

Nope 100% nope

 

Lol. Yup 100% yup. Players who are invested are more likely to stick around, and stick around for longer. Again, if this wasn't true, it wouldn't be something that game developers try so hard to make happen. You are arguing from some principle you WISH was true, I'm explaining stuff that is repeatedly present throughout the industry. Pretending that the stuff you don't like isn't true doesn't make it so.

 

Players who enjoy the game are less likely to quit. I spend time and money in and on games all the time and as soon as I stop enjoying the game play or story or community I quit with no problem and most of the gamers mmo or otherwise, I know are the same.

 

First, I don't really believe you. I bet you want to believe that, so you drop evidence to the contrary. Second, I bet you are dropping evidence of other player's behaviors, or rewriting them to fit your narrative. Third, even if all that was true, it would probably be because you play with players similar to yourself. Think about your closest 5 friends. Now think about that last presidential election. That was a roughly 50/50 split, right? Did you and your closest 5 friends each vote 3 for one candidate, and 3 for the other? It's possible, but it's much more likely that you don't hang with *as many* people *as often* who have opposite views. Now pretend that instead of your 5 closest friends and a presidential race, it's the 9 people who you play the most video games with, and it's based on game play philosophy. That's huge selection bias!

 

 

 

I also think it's awesome that I can pick any upgrade on any ship and queue up, why not share that feeling.

 

You want every upgrade, go get the req for every upgrade. I sure did.

 

Bring everyone into the club.

 

I don't control anything. But if it was up to me, no, you wouldn't get everything just for showing up, you'd get it through play, because the progression mechanic is a fundamental part of the game.

 

Because the design goal of tiers because of equipment disparagement is a dying model that is hurting GSF or any PVP.

 

No evidence that it's a dying model at all. The literal most successful games on the planet are all about paying money and time for upgrades, and when enough players have them, they add more stuff, and in many cases it is entirely and 100% a pvp situation. I'm not saying that makes the best games, and I do think that the community will at some point hit a point where this stuff stops working, but boy, we sure aren't there yet. At least GSF and other things like that are almost all time based progression with some skill thrown in there to level speed, instead of just being giant casher grabs.

[davidrodriguezjr]

Verain, Im not going to go and debate point by point everything again. You and I will never see this the same way and Im okay with that.

 

About not believing me that's on you, I can not prove this to you but I can say I am a Hispanic gun-owning liberal atheist in the middle of nowhere Georgia, USA , now imagine how many of my local friends, coworkers, and neighbors are the same or even online gamer friends are anything like me. Trust me none. But when it comes to gaming we leave all that at the "door". Some of my gamer friends have known each other for decades ( although we keep in contact it has got thinner as we find other games that interest us) if we were not afraid of leaving games we spent money and time on we would all still be playing the original Everquest, Madden 97 and Street Fighter II Turbo.

Edited September 30, 2015 by davidrodriguezjr

[Svarthrafn]

In fact, we have a whole series of events based on this very concept. Stock Night events have been going on for over a year, where everyone participating flies stock ships, no upgrades, no crew other than the default. It's fun and interesting, and the results have gone a long way to showing that player skill and tactical awareness is far more important to a pilot's overall performance than gear.

 

There is even a Stock Night being advertised currently in another post on this forum.

 

Despon

 

I'm aware of stock nights. How many are heading out in stock ships every night though? That's why I said that I doubt many will use it.

 

Player skill is the most important factor, I agree. But the the gear gap does more to widen that gap than close it.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[caederon]

But the the gear gap does more to widen that gap than close it.

I know these points have been made again and again, but it bears repeating:

 

If a player acquires a little advice (either from other players or guides) they can have a functional, competitive meta ship up and running within 10-20 matches, even starting from scratch. That does not seem like a lot to ask.

 

Example:

At lvl 10, go to the PvP mission terminal. Get the Intro to Starfighter mission. Complete the Tutorial, then play one match in your woeful stock ship of choice. You are awarded 5000 fleet req then and there.

 

Use your 5000 fleet req to purchase either a Type 2 scout (Sting/Flashfire) or both the Type 1 gunship (Mangler/Quarrel) and Type 1 bomber (Razorwire/Rampart). Now, after playing a single match, you have either one or two of the top meta ships, in their base form.

 

The stock Type 2 scout comes with Light Laser Cannons, which we want to get rid of ASAP, swapping in Burst Laser Cannon (2000 req). It has cluster missiles by default, which are great for new players and not bad overall. Getting the first upgrade for them (1000 req) makes them lock faster and that's pretty good for now. It has Koiogran Turn by default, which you want to swap for Barrel Roll or Retro Thrusters (1500 req). With either, get the first two levels of upgrades (3500 req). You can leave Targeting Telemetry (or the system component in general) alone at first and still do plenty of damage. You'll want Lightweight Armor and Large Reactor (1000 req each) and to upgrade those pretty quickly, along with your Regeneration Thrusters and you can use Damage Capacitor for now (though I recommend Range with BLC).

 

So that's all about 10000 req to get to a reasonable level of lethality. Between daily and weekly awards, and requisition earned from matches, you could earn that within 10-15 matches easily. At that point, a skilled pilot who knows what they're doing can put up very solid damage and kill+assist numbers.

 

That does not seem like an insurmountable investment of time or effort to vault the 'gear gap'.

 

Despon

[Svarthrafn]

10-20 matches for a functional competitive meta ship.

 

They should have that the first time they step into the game. Skill and experience should be the focus. Not playing throw away matches just to have a competitive ship.

 

I can hop into a stock ship and do well against upgraded ships. I'm sure you can too, but we've played this game a lot. That isn't the case for a lot of people coming into this game though.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[Danalon]

10-20 matches for a functional effective meta ship.

 

They should have that the first time they step into the game.

 

Yeah because in ground game everyone has a raid-ready equipped lvl 60 from the beginning.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Danalon

[Svarthrafn]

Yeah because in ground game everyone has a raid-ready equipped lvl 60 from the beginning.

 

Yeah, you see how well that is going in ground PVP. It's why we got bolster.

 

Besides, in raids you are working as a team against npc's. It's quite a different story against actual players.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[Danalon]

Yeah, you see how well that is going in ground PVP. It's why we got bolster.

 

Besides, in raids you are working as a team against npc's. It's quite a different story against actual players.

 

In ground game you have to grind new gear every season, which takes more than 10-20 matches. Also bolster doesn't really help there, because people without PvP gear still have a disadvantage.

 

What exactly has gear to do with playing as a team?

[caederon]

In my opinion, dumping the whole load of ships, abilities, and crew on a brand new pilot would be information overload and having it gated by a requisition system provides a more limited and manageable amount of things to process. Not to mention (as I believe Verain pointed out) there is a proven track record that people like a sense of progression and enjoy getting new things, unlocking new components etc.

 

Better solution #1 is what Paloga pointed out a few posts back: make the starter ships better out of the box, fix the lousy components they have (Rapid Fires etc) so that the first ship you get isn't a piece of junk.

 

Best solution that will never happen but should have from the start: get people of the same experience level playing against each other so they have a safer space to learn the game. It could be through a tiered league, or a custom match lobby where people can actually set up matches instead of the process being totally random.

 

Coincidentally, having all the best players from all over congregate on Harbinger (at least as far as the US goes) makes it a lot easier on new pilots on other servers that still get pops. Shadowlands still does, Begeren Colony still does to some extent. JC seems to, from what I hear. Ebon Hawk probably does. Players there face less serious opposition now.

 

Despon

[arkanone]

I am beyond sick and tired of waiting for a GSF que to trigger only to find myself against a republic group with fully equipped ships. Its as though the developers want to punish you for daring to play Galactic Star Fighter matches. I enjoy pvp but not when its clear that no matter how hard I play or try to work with my team, I lose the match in a brutal fashion.

 

If you want to be the best, you have to compete with the best. The most popular online air combat game is War Thunder so lets compare it real quick:

 

-Queue times are a few seconds.

-I've found matches to very, very even. I've never joined a game and knew within a minute that my team was going to get dominated.

-It has "realistic" and "simulator" modes for hardcore players.

-Matches are tiered based off the level of the planes in your hangar.

 

GSF doesn't even come close to any of those points. The developers have never done enough to entice players to try it--PVE gameplay, a better tutorial, a matchmaking system that utilizes the obvious lessons learned in MMORPG PVP, etc.

 

The only thing that you can do as a player is get social and find other dedicated players to queue with. Like most MMO developers, Bioware doesn't seem interested in revisiting a previous expansion. If something works they'll try to repackage it in another expanasion. GSF didn't set SWTOR on fire so they've let it sit where it is. Warts and all.

[Linuxizer]

So your evidence against me is a game where I stay in the middle and don't camp or push hard against the enemy team and focused mainly on killing the other team's best player which was you? If anything this game proves my point about how fragile a queue is. Considering they didn't want to play anymore even though we were holding back. And let me restate it one more time for emphasis most of my kills were on you.

 

Oh and less we forget even with all of that I still apologized to you directly.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8222369#post8222369

 

I have nothing against you personally but those wild accusations in your recent posts were not supported by evidence and they deserve to be challenged. You criticized several teams from some moral high ground you have not earned. The video shows that you are just as guilty as anyone else of driving people away from GSF. Token gestures like not spawn camping, not focusing on rookies (and only killing them for dessert), and broadcasting a public apology on the forum, did nothing to keep those rookies from quitting the match. Just killing a few rookies and dominating a match or two was really enough to discourage them and you need to accept that as a fact of life in any pvp game. Those subtle nuances and token gestures that you insist on may make you feel better about yourself but they make little difference to rookie Starpilots. You can continue to recommend these tactics but you have no right to scold other players for not adhering to your arbitrary standards.

[Lendul]

Yeah because in ground game everyone has a raid-ready equipped lvl 60 from the beginning.

Bad example considering they bolster for ground pvp, tactical fp and GF operations.

[Lendul]

Token gestures like not spawn camping, not focusing on rookies (and only killing them for dessert), and broadcasting a public apology on the forum, did nothing to keep those rookies from quitting the match. Just killing a few rookies and dominating a match or two was really enough to discourage them and you need to accept that as a fact of life in any pvp game. Those subtle nuances and token gestures that you insist on may make you feel better about yourself but they make little difference to rookie Starpilots.

The funny thing is you are continuing to make my point for me. Now imagine how much worse it would be if the majority subscribed to the go all out all the time paradigm. When a leader of the community publicly professes that, but also try to substantiate it then that becomes a very real possibility. Edited October 1, 2015 by Lendul

[Danalon]

Bad example considering they bolster for ground pvp, tactical fp and GF operations.

 

That wasn't an example, that was sarcasm. The point I should have made is that there is no bolster necessary because GSF neither needs a catch up mechanic for gear nor is there need to reduce the TTK against new players because there's not much difference between the time needed to kill a stock ship compared to a fully upgraded ship.

[Svarthrafn]

Now you're reaching (as usual). I feel quite a difference burning down a target in one of my upgraded ships vs when I'm flying a stock one.

 

Though I'll admit that might have more to do with the dreadful components most of the stock ships start with (T3 scout, looking at you).

Edited October 1, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[Danalon]

Now you're reaching (as usual). I feel quite a difference burning down a target in one of my upgraded ships vs when I'm flying a stock one.

 

I'm not talking about what upgrade status you have. I'm talking about what upgrade status your target has.

And no matter what upgrades your target has, you will need roughly the same time to kill it, as soon as you have spent around 30k req in a ship.*

In conclusion, a stock or low-upgrade ship, if flown correctly, has similar surviveability as a mastered ship or one that's close to being mastered.

Basically that's what the bolster in ground PvP tries to accomplish - reducing the gap in TTK. A worse geared player will most likely lose to a better geared player, but he won't die instantly. In GSF, everyone can die almost instantly if he doesn't pay attention, no matter how good his upgrades are, therefore a bolster is not needed.

 

* Just want to add: Earing 30k for a specific ship takes less than 2 weeks with only 1-2 games played per day for the quests - that's way less time than needed to get decent PvP gear, with the bonus of not having to farm crafting materials or credits for fine tuning and not having to do it again every season.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Danalon

[Svarthrafn]

Wrong. Bolster also increases damage dealt and (to a degree) expertise. This allows people who haven't gotten all their gear to remain somewhat competitive.

 

You're right, defenses between a mastered ship and a stock ship aren't significantly different barring missile breaks and engine/power (which adds to general slipperyness). The gap comes in the amount of damage combined with armor and shield piercing etc that mastered ships can put out compared to a stock ship. My time to kill a mastered ship or a stock ship doesn't change as long as I stay in the same ship. If I switch from my mastered ship to my stock ship, it changes quite a bit, unless my stock ship is a t2 scout, which has a decent stock setup compared to most others.

 

Anyyyyyyyyways, I'm not asking for bolster. I only brought it up as an example of something that came about because the gsf model didn't work for the ground game. A comparison someone else made, not me.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Svarthrafn

[Verain]

I really think that the GSF model is sort of like what stuff looks like POST bolster. You still gain a lot of power from gearing up in pvp in the ground game- the gear you get definitely increases your player power in pvp. The gear delta, without bolster, would be absolutely monstrous. GSF is nowhere close to what you would see there.

[Lendul]

I really think that the GSF model is sort of like what stuff looks like POST bolster. You still gain a lot of power from gearing up in pvp in the ground game- the gear you get definitely increases your player power in pvp. The gear delta, without bolster, would be absolutely monstrous. GSF is nowhere close to what you would see there.

I can see that. Gearing up in GSF is more comparable to the skills you gain while leveling up on the ground.

[Sinapus]

Again, harping on the one thing I said in a couple of paragraphs, and ignoring everything else. The one phrase was totally not even my larger point, but whatever, hoss.

 

Did it occur to you that the "one thing" was the only thing you wrote in that posting that I had a complaint about?

 

Actually, check that. I will completely ignore you in the future.

 

Oh. Never mind then.

 

[AidenDeshde]

Verain;8196716]We are not "sharing". We are "telling".

^^^ (Rather uppity of yourself don't you think?)

 

Your thread title is phrased like a fact.

It is not a fact: it is incorrect.

 

Don't try to pretend that we are all trying to "change your opinion". You came here to debate by stating things as facts that are not facts.

And definitely don't try to change frame on us with weasel words.

 

I think it's rather subjective to say that his opinion is incorrect... That is why it's someone's opinion... to be rough around the edges of what is or isn't correct about something. It's about wanting to vent frustration to the community & asking (without having to say so for those who can interpret intellectually...) for their own thoughts, and their opinions as well. It's intended to discuss something bothering someone within our game. It's not a thread for haters to post how "incorrect" he/she is by submitting statements to 'clarify how wrong they are' within the community. That is why this is all under "Community". Just thought I'd throw my own viewpoint of the ghastly replies in; since this is, as should be well apparent at this point, a thread for the submission of other player's viewpoint(s).

 

 

I love it when 2+2 is "4", but that's because it's also true.

I love it when people think they're being a smart*** makes them sound intelligent making their intentions work in reverse, because, that's also true.

 

 

 

So, each server is different, and each playtime is different. If you are flying against the same premade multiple times, you are probably queueing when they queue. As you might imagine, getting a premade together requires some effort, so normally there's a time of day, or time of week, or something, where these guys will meet up. What you should be doing is finding a group of empire to queue against them and beat them- but the very LEAST you could do, if that's not in the cards, is just queue when they aren't stomping your face in. Not that I suggest that: but it would certainly be more productive for you, I guess.

 

 

Ultimately, your complaints are very narrow. YOU are discouraged because on one server, when playing one faction, at a specific time, without teammates, YOU have a rough game. But you phrase this like it's a game wide problem. You project your logistical issues onto the entire playerbase. That's simply bad logic. I told you right away, in my first post, what your solution is- play with a damned team. It is a team game, you are part of a squad. If your opponents are coordinated and you are not, you will lose.

 

You weaken the argument further by implying that you even know what good coordination and play looks like. You might! You might actually have a pretty good idea, brought over from a presumed reasonably expansive history of pvp in other places, with good skill. But that's not really been my experience when people complain.

Here's what I see out of an uncoordinated team:

Ships that don't acquire scouts chasing down their allied gunships. Ships that don't support nodes. Allowing enemy gunships to remain roosted indefinitely. Allowing enemy deployables to stick around. Ignoring enemy hyperspace beacons. Staying in a turn-fight instead of swapping to peel. Valuing killcount++ over your teammates. Ship choice made entirely unrelated to other ships on the map.

So when you claim to work with your team, how can you be sure that these things aren't plaguing you? If you don't do them, how can you know that your team isn't?

 

 

If you want to win more, play with a team. If that's too hard, don't queue against whatever group of guys you are actually complaining about. I love that this started as "facts about the design flaws of GSF" and ended up as "...so there's this pub guild that bothers me".

 

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Yessssssss

 

 

 

It's easy to be frustrated in these situations- I am normally frustrated in them as well. I often can make the best of it by trying to make them work for it, but I'm certainly not saying these games are fun for all involved or whatever. I am saying that they are not really representative of all games- and that you can absolutely choose your fate to a reasonable degree by queuing with other pilots that will coordinate.

 

 

 

Like you say, it isn't happening- but it's absolutely insane that it is not. GSF needs cross server more than the ground game does, but that won't drive the development. It'll probably get dragged along if and when the ground game gets cross server PvP, but it should have shipped with this, period. Like, SWTOR should have never left beta without cross server pvp. Other games have spawned and died, with cross server in this time. WoW has expanded there cross server from "pvp instances" to "pve instances" to "each zone dynamically in the world". The last two have their opponents, but the first is trivially needed.

 

So you can sort of blame the designers here- someone decided that this vital feature could be left on the floor, to very bad consequences. But that was certainly not a GSF issue, it's SWTOR-wide.

[AlrikFassbauer]

GSF needs cross server more than the ground game does,

 

To me, "this needs cross-server" is always merely an excuse - to go on playing the game and never change anything. Sure. Croiss-server ill chzange the fact that people can remain, then, in their seats and play the game like they always did and never change anything about tht. No. It's not that what they do are wrong. It's not that - as an example - everyone going into imperial side is wrong - it's the game that's wroing, and that's why it needs cross-server.

 

That's the rough outline of what people are usually thinking when they demand cross-server.

 

Having cross-server takes away from the people the strain to have to change what they do, everyday. It is so nice to play the game like everyday, so why change a thing ?

 

Saying "we need cross-server" is like saying "we need cross-TVstations" because we sit in the couch and complain about the bad TV we get sent into our homes. But we don't realize that we could change it by simply change the TV station. Or by going out for a walk into the fresh air.

 

Instead of that, we remain passive, and demand that Bioware has to become the active part in the relationship (which is called "GSF" in this case).

 

There's so many tools at our hands to change the game experience for a better one for everyone.ö Yet we remain passive and egoistic and believe that not we have to change - but the other one has to.

 

"We need cross-server" = the possibility to remain passive and egoistic by not wanting to change at the same time.

[Archonitek]

To me, "this needs cross-server" is always merely an excuse - to go on playing the game and never change anything. Sure. Croiss-server ill chzange the fact that people can remain, then, in their seats and play the game like they always did and never change anything about tht. No. It's not that what they do are wrong. It's not that - as an example - everyone going into imperial side is wrong - it's the game that's wroing, and that's why it needs cross-server.

 

Cross server queuing is a partial solution to fixing entire thing. By crossing servers, you are increasing the available pool of players for matchmaking to chose from, which means whatever formulas and algorithms that Bioware stuck in to the bloody thing to ensure even teams can finally kick in. Its not the perfect solution to fix GSF, but it will solve the two huge, pustulant problems we have now, which is lack of players queuing together and uneven matchmaking.

Having cross-server takes away from the people the strain to have to change what they do, everyday. It is so nice to play the game like everyday, so why change a thing ?

Change what? Ship balances? New ships? Different meta? We'd be *********** ecstatic if the developers would chuck in some new stuff the give the game a breath of fresh air.

 

Saying "we need cross-server" is like saying "we need cross-TVstations" because we sit in the couch and complain about the bad TV we get sent into our homes. But we don't realize that we could change it by simply change the TV station. Or by going out for a walk into the fresh air.

 

Cross TV Stat-what?! What do TV stations have anything to do with cross queuing? How did you even try to make that fit as analogy? In fact that analogy is basically stating that instead of watching bad TV aka THE GAME ITESLF we should change TV stations or go outside. So switch to a different game or quit games all togther?

 

Instead of that, we remain passive, and demand that Bioware has to become the active part in the relationship (which is called "GSF" in this case).

 

There's so many tools at our hands to change the game experience for a better one for everyone.ö Yet we remain passive and egoistic and believe that not we have to change - but the other one has to.

 

How can a game developer NOT BE AN ACTIVE PART OF THE GAME?! WHAT?! WHAT!?!?!. Are you actively saying that GSF development is fine as it is and that the developers should ignore it from now on? This is what has been happening for the past however long the last GSF update was and look at the amount of bloody forum topics that have popped up. HAVE YOU READ THIS BLOODY THREAD?! Since when has it been solely player base's responsibility, in ANY GAME, to fix something that has become broken?

 

And tools?! What tools do we have? Guides and videos? In game "agreements" to take it easy on rookies? THAT. IS. ALL. WE. HAVE! There is no tutorial that adequately explains anything remotely more complex than the most basic of concepts. There is no custom matchmaking options to allow veterans to fly their own matches or to set up flying classes to teach rookies.

 

The fact that so many people have put in so much effort to keep GSF alive is a bloody miracle in itself, but we are a player base for a side project that is a completely different game in a F2P MMO means we are severly limited by what we are able to do without developers also doing their bit.

 

So don't come in on your *********** high horse mate and start point fingers at everyone telling us:

"We need cross-server" = the possibility to remain passive and egoistic by not wanting to change at the same time.

WE. WANT. CHANGE! And we've done a **** load more to keep this ship afloat than you ever have mate.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Archonitek