Juggernauts are gimped

[RawZa]

wayyyy too many abilities for a melee, i'm not even 50 and i'm already out of "usual mmo keybindings" that i always use. i'm scared to see what lvl 50 looks like and then when the time comes and they release an x-pac with a few more abilities? oh lord. please merge and simplify some abilities at least, right now its justt too much.

[Pineapplemang]

wayyyy too many abilities for a melee, i'm not even 50 and i'm already out of "usual mmo keybindings" that i always use. i'm scared to see what lvl 50 looks like and then when the time comes and they release an x-pac with a few more abilities? oh lord. please merge and simplify some abilities at least, right now its justt too much.

 

I want more abilities, there arn't enough.

[Lymain]

Haha. I think the number of abilities is just right!

 

And if you feel the class is gimped, then tell us exactly how you're spec'ing and playing.

[cfsboy]

Haha. I think the number of abilities is just right!

 

And if you feel the class is gimped, then tell us exactly how you're spec'ing and playing.

 

any spec should be viable... how your playing is always a good question. I have a sneaking suspicion that most (not all) who complain are not using every tool at their disposal. This is speaking from a PvE perspective, I don't think PvP should be such a heavy focus at this point. Game has just been released, get the PvE basics balanced and worked out then focus on PvP (in my opinion)

[Barzarel]

You guys thinking juggernauts get some abnormal amount of skills... I'm here to bring you some information. I've played almost every character to 20, and my Operative to 44.

 

I tend to look at all of the abilities on the trainer. Here comes the information... Juggernaut has close to the lowest amount of abilities, if not the lowest.

 

The class isn't hard becuase it has a ton of abilties, it's hard because it sucks until later levels. It also needs some help, it's not quite as fleshed out as Marauder. I'm hoping they'll add a mechanic to compete with Marauder's Fury.

 

Did you start counting them to? because compared to most MMO its alot, i have hotkey icons filled over spanding little over 3hotkey bars filled out at r41.

 

Which makes me wish we had a custom UI, we could make like alot of other MMOs.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Barzarel

[MPagano]

I haven't commented in this thread yet. Im liking the juggernaut a lot. I am also the type of person who doesn't really complain that my class is broken. I usually try to figure out how to improve, and I tend to play gimped classes pretty well i think. (For people who played wow, I was a balance druid in full pvp epics topping most BGs in dmg AND heals before balance had moonkin form).

 

Anyways, I'm only lvl 33 now, and I'm loving the class. I specced vengeance for now because I wasn't sure about Rage, and I thought I would solo through leveling faster as DPS spec. I fully intend to play this class as a tank though.

 

I'd like to hear what you folks use for rotations, though. I certainly don't have it all figured out, although I think I do pretty well. I need to get into the habit of building more sunder stacks on elite mobs, though. I usually keep ravage going anytime I can, I'll build some rage up and use impale>scream for a big combo rage dump. Smash anytime it's up (ruin talent ftw) and viscious slash if I have rage but impale and scream are on CD.

 

Unless I'm finishing one enemy off, I try to keep enough rage at any given time so I can hit retalition every time it lights up. Force choke to tie up a tough mob and quickly build some rage. Force push>pommel strike when I want to put a huge dent in a strong mob.

 

Tell me your thughts!

[draxuxus]

IMO, they need to move the Ruin talent a lower tier(great for all specs not just deep veng.) Make FS coneal/aoe(after all you are screaming at ppl) and buff the threat in Soresu Form. Our aoe rotation pretty much consists of FC/TS/Smash/ sweeping strike and tab sunders. I don't think there will ever be a completely balanced tanking concept where all tanks are on equal ground, but the threat gen could be better on the warrior aspect

 

on and why not make the guard be a aggro transferance and not just a forced % deduction. Also shockwave in rage would be awesome as a jugg baseline instead of rage or as a warrior base passive.

 

 

Idk though lol, im just a player and they probably won't listen to like 75% of us.

 

 

also and please for the love of god make saber ward a lower cd. it is the core of our tanking survival tools.

Edited December 26, 2011 by draxuxus

[NasherUK]

Juggernaut tank isn't as much of a problem as the DPS specs :/ Edited December 27, 2011 by NasherUK

[drastikxx]

I want proof of you guys doing so well.

 

I am usually very good at any mmo / class in a mmo I play. Compared to the other classes in the game the class is garbage.

 

it doesnt matter how much mit you have, if you cant keep the targets hitting you. yes it has a lot of cds . cds on taunts are way to long for not having the damage output or threat bonuses to keep agro off the other classes.

 

I guarentee you that the people flaming in this thread are deep down hating themselves for saying the class doesnt need buffed. We all know it does.

 

It is the hardest class to play. yes. at the same time it is the worse class number wises.

 

Ive grouped with several others in pvp , in warzones. juggernauts just cant hold threat on multiple targets. if there is no cc in the group your **** out of luck. single target threat is fine in most cases.

 

Im starting to think Tanking as a Rage or Vengeance spec might be the best thing to do.

[Darth_Hatine]

Juggernaut tank isn't as much of a problem as the DPS specs :/

 

This. I've heard a lot of problems with dpsing. However, I(being a tank jug and have played a tank assassin) have to say this class is fantastic at holding threat, and surviving. However, the damage ain't that great without Vette when soloing, at least for me. Tanking is a breeze, makes anything from WoW look overly difficult. That's my opinion.

[Tengobotas]

Im sorry but proof that there is a threat problem is only illustrated in that everyone who says the class is great then explains how to tank says they repeatedly use taunt. Taunt is not a tanking skill that youre supposed to spam, its something that you fall back on when someone manages to pull threat. If youre spamming taunt then youre losing threat pretty much continuously and more importantly, if youre spamming taunt then your DPS cant be that good.

 

Threat for Juggs is bad and it doesnt take a genius to figure it out. The class is still amazing and very fun to play but in groups there are definitely people who do the job better on multiple targets. Single target mitigation and tanking is another story...

[Strwrsrld]

Yah for those of you who claims this class sucks please learn how to play it before you complain. I read so many bad forums about this class that i didnt even try it in beta. It took me till i unlocked my legacy on my sorcerer to give it a chance. And now I dont even play the sorcerer any more because the juggernaut is a beast. I have no problem tanking and keeping aggro, which i wont lie i wouldnt mind a lower CD on the taunts, but I dont need it. And for DPS, lemme give ya a hint, GO HYBRID. And remember this class is all about managing RAGE which means its not a a class for NOOBS cause u actually have to be smart and not just smash buttons.

[Belwyn]

Stop being terrible.

 

How do I know you're being terrible? Because there are MANY like you.

I grouped with a pair of you for Hammer Station last night. I was able to kill things faster than both the DPS specced Jugg and the Marauder... and I was the one tanking. I'm a TANK Juggernaut.

 

 

 

If you have trouble with this class it is not the class, it is YOU.

Same goes for any Marauders having problems. It's YOU, not the class. Upgrade your gear, figure out what your abilities do and THINK BEFORE YOU ACT.

 

I hit 50 as a juggernaut sunday night, and I have to agree it's terrible and unbalanced. If it wasn't bioware would not have admitted to it and say theyw ill do a pass on it soon.

 

You have abilities you can't use on elites or in pvp, since your most damaging abilities require the enemy to be incapacitated or below 20% hp. Tell me how this is not broken? I don't think you have played the class enough if you really think it does not need to be fixed.

[Strwrsrld]

Honestly if they want to improve this class thats awesome. Because I have no quarrels with it besides the taunt CD's. So them making this class better just makes my life even easier

[Rawrjulian]

Did you start counting them to? because compared to most MMO its alot, i have hotkey icons filled over spanding little over 3hotkey bars filled out at r41.

 

Which makes me wish we had a custom UI, we could make like alot of other MMOs.

 

you dont want to open up custom ui changes at start. you would never know what crap is out there. BUT i do want a custom ui mostly because i feel like i look at my hot bar more then the rest of the game.

 

as for me when it come to the game i have yet to hit a snag but i only hit the 3rd planet. IMO the bloat is only there if you got in your head that you need all the skills, there all useful but you dont need all for every fight. also i dont think i had trouble in the 10-20 is i got lucky in black talon, but as imortal if you dont order mark targets its easy to lose a mob with our lack of aoe.

 

also there is no need for one tank class to be the best tank for all aspects of the game. but other then that i love them and the animation is nice.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Rawrjulian

[Lord_Itharius]

I've played a healing specd bh who does more dmg at lvl 20 than a lvl 50 dps specd juggernaut.

 

You must have been playing your jugg incredibly wrong, or are trolling. It's impossible to give a dps number without logs, but I drop enemies incredibly quick with impale/shatter crits averaging above 2000 and 5000 damage ravages on about a 12 second cooldown.

[Lord_Itharius]

You have abilities you can't use on elites or in pvp, since your most damaging abilities require the enemy to be incapacitated or below 20% hp. Tell me how this is not broken? I don't think you have played the class enough if you really think it does not need to be fixed.

 

Are you seriously complaining that your execute ability can't be used on enemies with over 20% health? Seriously?

 

Also, pummel strike is meant to be used on normal and strong mobs, of which there are plenty in endgame flashpoints. It's powerful and costs no rage, it's something outside your rotation that you use as an execute on normal enemies because they die to quickly to use savage throw.

 

Savage kick also works on slow enemies, and it's meant to be used on normal/strong mobs and in PvP immediately after force charging or using chilling scream.

 

You're complaining about mechanics that work perfectly. None of those abilities are meant to be used in your normal vengeance rotation outside vicious throw at < 20% health. You have plenty of abilities to burn rage on, don't complain about utility abilities that dispatch weaker enemies quicker. That just proves your inability to bother keybinding more than one bar. The juggernaut AC simply CAN'T be played as a clicker. If you plan on only using keys 1 through =, I suggest you try Sorcerer and BH, although even those classes have tons of utility abilities.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Lord_Itharius

[Noth]

Are you seriously complaining that your execute ability can't be used on enemies with over 20% health? Seriously?

 

Also, pummel strike is meant to be used on normal and strong mobs, of which there are plenty in endgame flashpoints. It's powerful and costs no rage, it's something outside your rotation that you use as an execute on normal enemies because they die to quickly to use savage throw.

 

Savage kick also works on slow enemies, and it's meant to be used on normal/strong mobs and in PvP immediately after force charging or using chilling scream.

 

You're complaining about mechanics that work perfectly. None of those abilities are meant to be used in your normal vengeance rotation outside savage throw at < 20% health.

 

Pretty sure Assassins get an execute that hits harder and can be used on people at 30% health. If Viscous throw was still 15 meters it would be well worth it, but it isn't.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Noth

[Lord_Itharius]

Pretty sure Assassins get an execute that hits harder and can be used on people at 30% health. If Viscous throw was still 15 meters it would be well worth it, but it isn't.

 

That's the thing. Vicious throw is 10m range, assassinate is only 4m melee range. And I'm talking about PvE here. Assassins get compensation in execute phase for their pretty wimpy damage throughout the early fight.

[Noth]

That's the thing. Vicious throw is 10m range, assassinate is only 4m melee range. And I'm talking about PvE here. Assassins get compensation in execute phase for their pretty wimpy damage throughout the early fight.

 

Actually assassin can and often do hit harder throughout the fight than a jugg does.

[Fixiooo]

Anyone else besides me feeling the Juggernaut Vengeance spec is just very gimped in PvP?

[Errthu]

Merc easy does more than 200k damage per minigame.

Powertech is way harder to kill than immortal jugg and does more damage.

Assasins - battle hide/speed buff/aoe knock - better than any of our defensive cooldowns.

 

Juggs are gimps. Totally.

[Sookster]

Juggs are actually pretty good, I'm mostly immortal with some rage, quite a good combo. In pvp jugg can be the hardest to play due to all the ranges and mez effects and our stupid long cooldown on mez clensing ability which needs to be fixed.

 

But to say they're gimped... you need to play something else, buster.

[Covinus]

Personally I disagree with much of what's being said, Juggs feel very underwhelming and very frustrating to play. Our threat generation and snap agro is pathetically low compared to other tanking classes. It's odd because as others have said we do have alot of cooldowns and attacks however after using them constantly you realize... you still have no agro.

 

Dunno feels awful to go back to the WoW warrior tank motif of only being good at tanking 1 single target and making others wait for 3 sunders on everything before they can attack

[Noth]

The thing is most people who complain about the effectiveness of Guardians/Juggernauts don't reach endgame. At a high level of play, we're easily one of the most powerful classes to the point of even being overpowered.

 

For example; a Focus/Rage spec'd Guardian/Juggernaut @ 50 with respectable PvP gear will get 4-5k+ sweeps. With better gear and buffs, it gets even better.. like so: http://guard-this.com/images/nyan/30k.jpg

 

Keep in mind, I'm also using Soresu Form, Guard, and a shield generator. My survivability is great and my damage can be ridiculous, on top of that I can taunt, guard, spam an AoE snare, kb/kd, etc.

 

I don't see how this is gimped... at all. Quite the contrary.

 

It gets quite old seeing so many threads about how bad we supposedly are when in fact at end game we're easily one of the most dangerous classes and we'll likely see nerfs once people level up, gear up, and play correctly.

 

You have to blow several GCDs to get your sweep/smash to do that damage. Other classes can do that without the build up, snipers with 4k crits from their main attacks, scoundrel doing 3k crits while CCing you, merc doing 3k damage cits from spamming one button. In comparison to other classes we are pretty gimp atleast in the dps specs.