Ardarell_Solo Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 How does this post Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw[/u]: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target. make sense in combination with this post Set Bonus Improvements: At present, we are considering adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger. What are your thoughts on this? We want to reduce the rotational constraints of some set bonuses, ??? You're saying you want to remove rotational constraints by putting the set bonus trigger on an ability you just described as designed to be used situationally.. That's a contradiction as far as I can tell. Hm, could it be, you just realized you eliminated Master Strike from Watchman rotation with 3.2.1. by offering a rotation that has neither resource enough nor room for our set bonus ability? -> 1. We'll still use Master Strike, though only the first GCD of it. 2. If you're looking for an additional ability nevertheless, the only good alternative is probably Zealous Strike On a single target, the HPS has been slightly decreased. This is by design to counterbalance the vastly improved self healing provided by DoTing multiple targets. With the new Hemorrhaging Smash/Burning Sweep Smash/Force Sweep cooldown reduction, spreading DoTs is easier and more fluid than on Live. This should drastically increase the self healing and DPS potential of Annihilation/Watchman players combating multiple targets. Most PvE fights that have high incoming damage are single target encounters. I don't think it's a good idea nerfing Watchman self heal capability on Revan and Coratanni HM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardarell_Solo Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 And, though I hate to go down this route as well. Even I am losing trust that we'll get something good here eventually with the people currently in charge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanis Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 And, though I hate to go down this route as well. Even I am losing trust that we'll get something good here eventually with the people currently in charge... Now Bioware has done it:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Can we have jugg's ravage also activate the set bonus.... ? Saber throw doesn't really fit into rage rotation in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) I much prefer the jug autocrit generator of saber throw to sent's autocrit generator of master strike. Almost any other sentinel ability would be preferable to generate the autocrit. Master strike damage sucks post-3.0 for costing 2 gcds. Even if it did more damage, it's still paints a sign on your head saying "I'm channeling this ability now, and after that I'm going to autocrit you. CC me maybe?" But yeah, the jug version is infinitely better atm. Edited May 6, 2015 by Kakisback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire-breath Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 There was no DPS buff to speak of in any of the 3.2.1 PTS patches, all of the changes you are making reduce DPS. They said exactly that. Reread the post mate. They said the last PTS changes were lowering the DPS potential. Not sure why you think he said there was a dps boost? So I have to ask if this latest request is just another opportunity for you to blatantly ignore feedback while ostensibly pretending to care? Et tu Brute? Never expect you to stoop down to this level Lets remember please what kind of community with bioware is possible and which good PTS cycles we have had in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire-breath Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I think you've been parsing that statement wrong. How I read it is "Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw should be used against multiple targets OR when you have the Pulverize/Mind Sear buff OR when you are further than 4m from your target OR when any combination of the above are true." I havent lately checked sentinel DPS but last time I did Mind Sear was used on 100% of the TSTs. It had the same cooldown. Not sure if this changed. But tbf. It does fit into using it situationally if it procs the setbonus. Although its to much a hassle to keep track imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oofalong Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 They said exactly that. Reread the post mate. They said the last PTS changes were lowering the DPS potential. Not sure why you think he said there was a dps boost? Perhaps, I am confused, but I was referencing this post, which says: Following these Annihilation/Watchman rotation changes, we realize that there is a slight loss in DPS potential and want to take this opportunity to give you all the chance to voice where you would like to see this DPS returned. We will survey these posts in the coming week to assess your perspectives, and implement a DPS buff in the next PTS patch based on your feedback. Take this time to voice your opinions and state your reasoning. You have a chance to affect the rotational evolution of your class. Et tu Brute? Never expect you to stoop down to this level Lets remember please what kind of community with bioware is possible and which good PTS cycles we have had in the past. Believe me, no one is more surprised at my ire than me. Fundamentally, the entire conversation around 3.2.1 has been filled with trepidation about the class. At each turn, BioWare has done nothing to belie concerns despite glowing language like I quoted above or any number of sound bytes from the three posts today. What is the point of providing constructive feedback if it is ignored? As much as I hate it, I have seen the squeaky wheel getting the grease so is it time to try that tactic? I hope not, but I am willing to do just about anything to once again enjoy playing my Marauder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kakisback Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 No. Spreading DoTs isn't fluent on Maras. 3 Focus cost for DoT-sprad, no range, pathetic diameter, not part of single target rotation and a 6second DoT to spread? No, no, no, no, no. Let me give you an example: Serenity has a DoT spread with a laugable cost, INSANE diameter and 10m range, as part of their single target rotation AND an additional improvement with Death Mark that also applies to ALL targets affected. Do you see how dumb that sounds in comparison to ours? How ridiculous? Care to explain what led to this decision? Nobody asked for DoT-spread. You gave us DoT-spread, but it is the most awful mechanic in PvP. By introducing a 6 second DoT (which is a step in the right direction, don't get me wrong) you led this change ad absurdum. Using DoT-spread with a 6second DoT, with a 3 Focus cost and a DoT-spread that has the most pathetic diameter and is not part of the single target rotation is NOT viable. Not in the slightest. Never (at least in PvP). Either change this concept completely (by giving us a bigger diameter and removing the focus cost on our spread), or remove the spread and give us more single target DPS instead, like the class used to be. Regarding heals: This is one of the few cases, where I would say at least you tried. It is not the most awful thing ever, but you are homogenizing classes. Why? Who asked for that? Right, nobody. I'm sure most of us don't want the same self-heal that Sages and Shadows have. We want to keep our unqiue mechanic. It was incredibly fun and fluent to use both PvP and PvE. Heal on crits was unqiue. Please give us back our 2% selfheal on crits, like it used to be. Nothing else needed in regards to self-heals. This post is pretty spot on. Watchman will continue to be completely irrelevant in pvp until these problems are rectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnard Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) The healing changes came out of left field. The only thing anyone ever asked for was to revert to the old 2%. I honestly don't know of many times where I would benefit from increased healing in dot spread other than during dailies and most endgame players have no reason to do those. Intelligent PvP players know never to stack together and so few melee PvP any more to even do so. Edited May 6, 2015 by Barnard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepthen Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The self healing change is dumb. Give us the 2% back; that's what we've asked for. Great, we can get decent self heailng by spreading dots, using abilities that aren't in our general rotation in a spec that is currently Focus starved as it is. How does the whole "spread dots to heal" help me in PvE boss encounters? It doesn't. There are very few opportunities to even spread dots and even then, it'll jack up my already Focus starved rotation. So.. no thanks. Give us the 2% healing back so that on sustained single target fights, we can survive a little easier. Why is that so hard? I stood by and somewhat defended the original 3.0 rotation. I even dealt with sidelining my Sentinel for this tier of Ops in the hope that the next tier will be more friendly. When all of these horrible changes go live, I might as well park him at the datacron on Makeb because that's all he'll be useful for. /throws in the towel You win, Bioware. I'll just switch to commando full-time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiala_X Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 (edited) Just give Marauder/Sentinel the best change ever: a button which evolves/digitat/transform... them into any other class (like a shadow for pvp or commando for pve ) then we have no more problems with this class. (Or you could take dot-spread out of the game for good but we all know that is “to hard” don't we?) Edited May 6, 2015 by Shiala_X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaellSolaris Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Set Bonus Improvements: We also want to take this opportunity to ask the Marauder/Sentinel community about expanding the ability trigger options for the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus set bonus. At present, only Ravage/Master Strike can trigger the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus. To allow for greater rotational flexibility across all Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines, we want to discuss the potential to add additional abilities as trigger activators. At present, we are considering adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger. What are your thoughts on this? We want to reduce the rotational constraints of some set bonuses, and felt that this was an appropriate opportunity to discuss strategies with you all. Well, i have to say i like the idea when i saw waterboytkd talking about it and adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger is actualy a good thing. Yeah i know no complain this time ! but i have to be faire, it IS a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captindoom Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I actually like the changes that are being made to sent and mara, will make them a lot more viable for pvp now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I actually like the changes that are being made to sent and mara, will make them a lot more viable for pvp now. Did you hit your head? These changes make them worse in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TACeMossie Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Did you hit your head? These changes make them worse in pvp. Concentration/Fury got buffed, what with access to the internal/elemental DR of Juyo, the move speed buff of atayru, and access to transcendance/predation without completely screwing themself over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skettitangles Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Concentration/Fury got buffed, what with access to the internal/elemental DR of Juyo, the move speed buff of atayru, and access to transcendance/predation without completely screwing themself over... I love Carnage and Fury but Fury is the only spec I'm playing atm. The Cc immunity off force crush was a good addition and Annihilation and Carnage should get something similar. Also make the set bonus trigger off battering assault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jauvtus Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 I actually like the changes that are being made to sent and mara, will make them a lot more viable for pvp now. Guys! The DEVS do read and post in our forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBoba Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 For PVP, I'd like the saber-throw to proc the crit bonus as well. Hate jumping in and having to ravage early, I'd rather be moving. Great idea, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) 5m (10m spot) melee dot spreader In PvP... pure melee without stealth or GTAoE skills. GG bioware! Edited May 7, 2015 by Glower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overmind Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Mara/Sents suppose to be good vs. single targets. Making them spread DoTs is a big mistake. Wrong class for this kind of thing.As said in this thread earlier, noone asked for this. Let our classes be; they're fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightTyler Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Hey everyone, Concluding our threads that lend insight on recent Marauder/Sentinel design choices, we’re continuing with a discussion regarding Annihilation/Watchman self healing changes and a discussion on improving set bonuses. Hungering/Merciless Zeal Changes: The new design for Hungering/Merciless Zeal is intended to drastically improve the self healing potential of Annihilation/Watchman players depending on their offensive involvement and multi-target coordination. On a single target, the HPS has been slightly decreased. This is by design to counterbalance the vastly improved self healing provided by DoTing multiple targets. With the new Hemorrhaging Smash/Burning Sweep Smash/Force Sweep cooldown reduction, spreading DoTs is easier and more fluid than on Live. This should drastically increase the self healing and DPS potential of Annihilation/Watchman players combating multiple targets. Set Bonus Improvements: We also want to take this opportunity to ask the Marauder/Sentinel community about expanding the ability trigger options for the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus set bonus. At present, only Ravage/Master Strike can trigger the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus. To allow for greater rotational flexibility across all Marauder/Sentinel Disciplines, we want to discuss the potential to add additional abilities as trigger activators. At present, we are considering adding Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw to the Weaponmaster’s/Challenger’s Critical Bonus trigger. What are your thoughts on this? We want to reduce the rotational constraints of some set bonuses, and felt that this was an appropriate opportunity to discuss strategies with you all. Thanks to all for the constructive feedback. Please feel free to share your perspectives on the proposed changes outlined above. We will continue to monitor and test thread feedback as we move forward. Cheers, all! John Though I have made a post in the other topic discussing Defensive Form's which details what I think about some of the changes, I have to say that I actually like the changes to Merciless Zeal and Force Sweep's dotspread. Keeping Force Sweep as the dotspread maintains the sentinels identity as a melee class and the cooldown reduction helps us in the situations where Force Sweep wants to act a little wonky. One thing I think needs to be said is the reduction of self heals on single target will affect the survivability of watchman in encounter's where there is only a single target to beat on. I would like to see some additional damage reduction or defense chance tacked on to Blazing Ward or thrown in somewhere if their passive survivability begins to suffer. Also John, you have spoken about the design philosophy behind the damage profile and difficulty of each Sentinel discipline, but you haven't spoken about which spec is intended to be more survivable than the others. Would you mind telling us which Sentinel discipline is the most/least survivable and the defenses that are inherent to each spec because of their damage profiles? I'm curious to hear the Combat Team answer this because its not something you often see talked about concerning damage classes. Edited May 7, 2015 by KnightTyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jboath Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Force camo utilities need to be combined into a heroic utility. Leg slash utilities need to be combined into a heroic utility. Guarded by the Force utilities need to be combined into a masterful utility. The new concentration cc immunity needs to be spread across the other two specs. The masterful utility of meditating to stack centering needs to be baseline thus being able to utilize the guarded and saber ward utilities. Make defensive forms baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheresMyWhisky Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) No. Spreading DoTs isn't fluent on Maras. 3 Focus cost for DoT-sprad, no range, pathetic diameter, not part of single target rotation and a 6second DoT to spread? No, no, no, no, no. Let me give you an example: Serenity has a DoT spread with a laugable cost, INSANE diameter and 10m range, as part of their single target rotation AND an additional improvement with Death Mark that also applies to ALL targets affected. Do you see how dumb that sounds in comparison to ours? How ridiculous? Care to explain what led to this decision? Nobody asked for DoT-spread. You gave us DoT-spread, but it is the most awful mechanic in PvP. By introducing a 6 second DoT (which is a step in the right direction, don't get me wrong) you led this change ad absurdum. Using DoT-spread with a 6second DoT, with a 3 Focus cost and a DoT-spread that has the most pathetic diameter and is not part of the single target rotation is NOT viable. Not in the slightest. Never (at least in PvP). Either change this concept completely (by giving us a bigger diameter and removing the focus cost on our spread), or remove the spread and give us more single target DPS instead, like the class used to be. Regarding heals: This is one of the few cases, where I would say at least you tried. It is not the most awful thing ever, but you are homogenizing classes. Why? Who asked for that? Right, nobody. I'm sure most of us don't want the same self-heal that Sages and Shadows have. We want to keep our unqiue mechanic. It was incredibly fun and fluent to use both PvP and PvE. Heal on crits was unqiue. Please give us back our 2% selfheal on crits, like it used to be. Nothing else needed in regards to self-heals. This pretty much sums up the ****** dot spread, make it fluid my arse. John go play a pre 3 anni marauder then come back with a straight face and tell us the **** you have given us is actually better. My suggestion for improvement leave as is on live for now, combat team resign today, hire new combat team then try and balance. I am really scared for the poor healers now as what you initially suggested for corruption was so stupid it belied belief and just confirms how clueless you are. Edited May 7, 2015 by WheresMyWhisky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire-breath Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 My bad. I was reading your quote as if they wanted to give buffs in the next pts update. Which is incorrect in many ways since there isnt a next pts 3.2.1 release coming. Believe me, no one is more surprised at my ire than me. Fundamentally, the entire conversation around 3.2.1 has been filled with trepidation about the class. At each turn, BioWare has done nothing to belie concerns despite glowing language like I quoted above or any number of sound bytes from the three posts today. What is the point of providing constructive feedback if it is ignored? As much as I hate it, I have seen the squeaky wheel getting the grease so is it time to try that tactic? I hope not, but I am willing to do just about anything to once again enjoy playing my Marauder. I know the feeling of getting ignored. I really whish it were different and maybe I'm just to much an optimistic / naive person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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