The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

[Noth]

You have no clue about the class you are describing. What you are describing are several different individual specs and abilities that cannot be had with the same spec. Currently the best PvP spec is Focus which is the exact same tree that guardians get and good pvp guardians also use which has the same cooldown on leap.

 

Sentinels get no range root, we get a range snare, we do not get a cloak with runspeed boost. No melee class currently has it easy staying on a target due to other classes having an endless amount of CC and there not being any diminishing returns DESPITE what the resolve system is intended.

 

*Stares at the displacement talent* No ranged root huh? *Stares at force camouflage with a 30% movement speed boost* No cloak with speed boost huh?

 

No where do I say you are fine. No where do I say that those things are baseline. I simply say you have more tools to stay close and get close than a Jugg/Guard does. Try being less defensive.

[Naroga]

You as a sentinel can have a lower cooldown on leap with no minimum range. Passive runspeed increase. Ranged root, a runspeed increase. A cloak with speed boost. You already have a much easier time closing and staying on the target.

 

Those are all in different trees. We can't have them all at once.

[Noth]

Those are all in different trees. We can't have them all at once.

 

You are not getting the point. You have more tools than juggs do.that is the point. Juggs don't get a ranged root. We don't get a speed boost, we don't get extra snare breaks reguardless of spec. You specs have extra tools. Pretty much the only extra tool we have is unstappable which allows us to get in one, maybe two attacks before being CC'd/knocked away to where we are easily kited again. Sent/Marauders have more tools. Several of the things I mention are baseline.

[getdownsb]

You as a sentinel can have a lower cooldown on leap with no minimum range. Passive runspeed increase. Ranged root, a runspeed increase. A cloak with speed boost. You already have a much easier time closing and staying on the target.

 

You're combining 3 different classes. The last time I checked we don't get 100 skill points. Also, doesn't it make sense for the OFFENSIVE DPS class to have pursuit abilities? Yes, yes it does. Now tell me why it makes sense that the DEFENSIVE TANKING class can do the same damage while specc'ed as a tank as well as have armor debuffs and better range on their offensive saber throw?

Edited January 11, 2012 by getdownsb

[Lymain]

Immortal/Defense doesn't really need any help, aside from bug fixes and such (defense interrupting our abilities is pretty crippling).

 

Focus everything on the other specs, especially Vengeance/Vigilance. I feel like I'm missing a CC or two while playing those specs, but I guess extra survivability might work instead.

[DevonPearl]

Jedi knight guardian = burst dmg?

 

The guardian is the lowest dps class in the game and in bad need for a real respec to be an equal damage dealer.

 

They should play the game.

 

Greetings from Darth Traya Ilum bugged for 2 days with no comment and no server restart.

 

Maybee the guardians did too much damage to the turrets

[Noth]

You're combining 3 different classes. The last time I checked we don't get 100 skill points. Also, doesn't it make sense for the OFFENSIVE DPS class to have pursuit abilities? Yes, yes it does. Now tell me why it makes sense that the DEFENSIVE TANKING class can do the same damage while specc'ed as a tank as well as have armor debuffs and better range on their offensive saber throw?

 

You have pursuit abilities. Force como can be a pursuit ability, you get a runspeed buff with zen/fury. in the Ataru spec you get passive run speed and a range root. in the Juyo spec you get a a decreased cooldown and no minimum range on force leap. You also can spec for an even bigger runspeed boost. You get pursuit abilities.

 

Jugg so far has unstoppable. We get no extra runspeed, no range roots, no speed boosts, no cloaks, no mortal strike no matter what spec we go. Jugg needs pursuit abilities as well.

 

You are playing your sent/marauder wrong is a tank spec jugg is doing teh same damage as you. You are playing it very wrong. Tank spec juggs/guards have the lowest perceived dps in the game.

[Narvakhan]

No a knockback should not in any way trigger our force leap. Here is why:

 

In PVP this gives us a very unfair advantage and disadvantage. In huttball, you almost guaranty us a score with a moderately active team and a roflstomp if your team is organized. In alderaan we are able to keep someone away from the point without much care vs actually working the point with our teammates. In voidstar it is the worst possible thing you could do (and this goes absolutely double for world pvp) because we just allowed the inviser types a playing field, delay and time to counter us completely, you have given EVERY ranged a head start to kiting us. I ask you to relook at this and realize this ISN'T a problem. Mind you this only addresses the views of this Jedi Knight Guardian tank.

 

Now about other issues that have been mentioned in pvp... someone keeps getting away from you and your Freezing Force (hello no resolve trigger for this) just takes too long? Your Stun just doesn't come up fast enough? Or the real problem you need force in able to do these? Why haven't you gone ahead and put your points into Solidified Force? If you put the two points in Freezing Force has ZERO cost. So for zero cost you have a 50% ae snare for 6 seconds... and you can spam it. Hilt Strike now costs one. This will keep even ground between you and those running from you. This doesn't address ability lag which will render this useless, but that is not all the time and trust me I know the frustration.

 

So you are upset Force Stasis requires channeling? Once again this is already addressed via Stasis Mastery. For a single point you can make it an instant and still get the 3 second damage (even if they interrupt). Additionally in pvp this is a great opener for them to dispell and open them up to a full cc. In reality you should blow Freezing Force, watch them go to dispell, then use statis, then when it drops hit them with hilt strike. You will have been able to do this for a whopping 1 force.

 

Notice no where did I mention damage. I taunt, I ae taunt, I snare, I protect. I am a tank that is my job. That is my job in pve, that is my job in PVP. What I am saying is really check your build and what you can actually do. If you are a JKG and a guardian and you are doing top damage, something is so very wrong. If you don't have any protection, something is very wrong. Not everything pvp is kills & damage nor should it be.

 

No the real problem I see is agro control and this is purely pve and that exists because the only real agro we have is 50% based on form and a horrible taunt/ae taunt. Don't worry I didn't forget about hilt strike. The abilities are there, but they are a bit off. AE taunt (Challenging Call) is 15 meters and under a 30 second cooldown. Taunt is 30 meters and has a 15 second cool down while Hilt Strike is 4m and has a 1 minute cool down. The abilities are there but there are some issues;

 

Hilt Strike: great cool down and definitely pisses mobs off.. 4m makes it useless if something breaks away. So I use this as a threat builder on my main target. 2 Possible options... reduce the cool down so it can be used every 15 seconds as the primary taunt ability for your main target. For PVP 2 hits of this should fill resolve putting it on par with other similar abilities.

 

Challenging Call: No change. This cool down is right about where it needs to be in order for the tank to use it on a proper cycle and forces the group to focus properly vs getting itchy for other mobs. This should never turn into a fix for bad playing.

 

Taunt: Leave the pvp element to it without change. Increase the focus of attacks to 10 seconds. Due to the sheer low amount of damage we do, give us a bit more time of focus before the mobs go ******* on our party members. This would also allow a tank to use it when an additional mob breaks, but doesn't make cc useless because you can only do it to one mob.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Narvakhan

[Staavis_SC]

Personally, I'd like to see Guardians get a base Endurance boost or some added defense through the use of Sorensu form, and perhaps some added threat mechanics to the majority of their attacks.

 

Something to make Guardians a bit more stout and a bit more threatening.

 

That would be the ideal buff in my opinion. Damage for Guardians is fine as it currently sits, so long as our survivability goes up and we can generate threat. If we can't get a boost on that, then damage will need a boost.

 

Right now, from Level 1-49, we just feel very gimped.

[SirJahi]

i feel we dont need a buff. instead other classes need nerfs. they need rotation nerfs so they cant just spam a skill over and over and over, cool down nerfs so they cant tank everything or go inviz in the middle of combat (makes no sense why we dont have a longer or toggle-able inviz), and nerf their over all health and armor because it makes not sense why people can get knock backs, stuns, roots, inviz, heals, high ranged damage with no rotation, and still be able to tank.

 

if you can kite you shouldn't be allowed to tank too.

[pangwl]

You know what would do WONDERS for sentinel.

 

If you didn't fight a healer and saw "healingspell being cast", SPAM KICK... no idea if it actually interrupted or not but!!!!! 1 sec later "HEALCAST", "HEALCAST", "HEALCAST"...

 

So tired of it, it's absolutely dumbfound that a healer can continue to heal 24-7 and only way you can kill him is if you're DEAD lucky on critstreaks WHILST using leap+stasis+kick to interrupt.

 

LoL, there was another situation that happened to me, I was 1v1 this Sith in WZ, he faught me at first, then he soon realize I have a healer, knowing that he won't win, he just kept healing himself up, I keep slashing, while there's another person healing me.... in the end, nobody die; we just do the cycle till he gave up and leap to the healer, he died, I died.

[joaltendorf]

then play something else, there are too many lightsaber people anyways.

 

stupid answer

[ArticaWrath]

Hi George, firstly its great to see feedback (good or bad) but I have to wonder at times what parses of data you are looking at to come to such conclusions?

 

Sadly not enabling the combat log has forced players into pretty much theorycrafting without any data, I understand you guys have all the data but if you enabled the combat log you would be enabling the community to aid you in the development of classes.

 

Whilst your right Warrior (I empahsise this as its not just Jugg/Guardian its Marauder/Knight also) have issues staying in melee range - I fail to see how you can ignore Marauder and state only Jugg will be getting buffs... Both classes suffer from the exact same "melee" orientated issues.

 

In the developers wisdom they decided to give all ranged the majority of the stuns and cc (whilst already having the huge benefit of range) whilst leaving all melee classes at a distinct disadvantage in PVP - how many times has someone got into range, got knocked away/slowed/stunned - charged back in to get knocked back again (knockbacks not being affected by resolve and resolve not working for the most part) Its a lot.

 

The Warrior class overall needs a proper stun or knockback, I read elsewhere the suggestion to give us "Slam" You pickup your opponent and slam him to the ground interupting any cast and stunning for 3-4 seconds.. It fits perfectly with the class and isn't gamebreaking.

 

Also Pommel Strike/Savage kick - these are 2 horrible "tease" abilities, here 2 hard hitting damage dealing abilities that don't work in pvp or on pve bosses. Merge them into 1 ability and enable them to work in PVP.

 

To summarise Warrior classes aren't broken nor need huge buffs, they need tweaks (you are right in saying fixing the combat animation and combat system/delay will go a huge way in making the classes more viable - fixing Choke/Ravage/Smash to work 100% and properly would also go a long way) I would suggest you implement one/some of the following :

 

Pommel Strike/Savage Kick - Combine into 1 ability, average the damage, enable on all types of enemies.

 

CC - Give us a proper stun or knockback.

 

Increase the range on all saber throws.

 

Make Obliterate a class core ability and make it a 20 yard range. (having 2 charges would make the class far more viable in pvp)

Out of every post I've seen in this thread, this one makes the most sense.

 

Another issue I would like to address are the Marauders and Sentinels not dealing enough damage to be effective in combat.

 

Compared to other classes our damage output is way lower and takes more button presses than other classes. This is assuming that we can even stay in melee range. For a DPS oriented character this puts the Marauders/Sentinels at a big disadvantage. Juggs/Guards can take a substantial amount of punishment, while Marauders and Sents fold like wet paper bags. Usually a squishy DPS is okay in an MMO because their damage dealing abilities make up for their frailness. This is not the case with Marauders and Sentinels.

 

We also don't have effective CC abilities. As far as I know Force Smash only works on weaker enemies and disable droid doesn't really apply in PVP combat situations.

 

I'm glad to see Juggernauts and Guardians being updated but, I'm curious as to why Marauders and Sentinels aren't being given the same amount of attention. They are worse off than any other class in the game.

[Costello]

Georg I can only speak for the Marauder but as nothing has been addressed in your post as to doing anything about it I feel the need to hightlight that this class is underpowered.

 

As others have mentioned it is the only class in the game that when it goes dps over its tank/dps option is limited to a lower armour type. The Powertech and the Merc can both ware heavy armour if they go DPS, tank or healer. The Smuggler can go healing or dps or stealth and always get to ware medium armour but the Marauder is limited to a lower armour catagory than its alternate AC.

 

Likewsise the Warrior and Jedi are the only classes that have to work towards building their mechanic. Every other class starts full and naturally regenerates or vents heat, this makes a massive difference in short fights where you have to use the same rage/focus generating attacks while all the other classes can use their advanced attacks. Not to mention my JC has 2 talent points that bump his pool up by 500. I can barely get it down the 1.5 cool down is far more of a problem than my pool.

 

And the Maurader is the only AC that has only one aspect to it. DPS everyone else can go DPS and mix in some healing or tanking or stealth or CC but the Marauder gets bleed dps, 20% chance dps or force powers dps.

 

Nearly all the ranged attacks from the jedi/warrior cost focus or hate to use so if the leap is on cool down closing the gap is almost impossible and the carnage spec maurader seems to have only one viable route attack and fitting that into an already over full tool bar is a serious hassel. With no knock back immunity and one real route breaker and one that never seems to work cause you are stunned or held not routed so even with the talents camoflauge doesn't seem to break anything. So you are knocked round like a paper doll and should you get in close and they don't knock you flying the dps isn't sufficient that many of the classes can toe to toe with you and if they can't they just kite.

 

If you don't believe me role a knight or a warrior and go que yourself with some flash points which will be hutt ball and come back and say what a great experience that was for you. But don't say the community doesn't know what it is talking about when cause some meaningless statics that don't have any way to judge the experience of the gamers don't spell out the problem.

[OrYcle]

Why is jugg tank mitigation not being looked at as well? The only way we have any survivability is by using our two 3-minute cd abilities. Nearly every other class has pass through damage and insane armor penetration. Also, shielding doesnt really work in pvp.

 

Please fix these issues too...

[darthmorbous]

Georg I can only speak for the Marauder but as nothing has been addressed in your post as to doing anything about it I feel the need to hightlight that this class is underpowered.

 

As others have mentioned it is the only class in the game that when it goes dps over its tank/dps option is limited to a lower armour type. The Powertech and the Merc can both ware heavy armour if they go DPS, tank or healer. The Smuggler can go healing or dps or stealth and always get to ware medium armour but the Marauder is limited to a lower armour catagory than its alternate AC.

 

Likewsise the Warrior and Jedi are the only classes that have to work towards building their mechanic. Every other class starts full and naturally regenerates or vents heat, this makes a massive difference in short fights where you have to use the same rage/focus generating attacks while all the other classes can use their advanced attacks. Not to mention my JC has 2 talent points that bump his pool up by 500. I can barely get it down the 1.5 cool down is far more of a problem than my pool.

 

And the Maurader is the only AC that has only one aspect to it. DPS everyone else can go DPS and mix in some healing or tanking or stealth or CC but the Marauder gets bleed dps, 20% chance dps or force powers dps.

 

Nearly all the ranged attacks from the jedi/warrior cost focus or hate to use so if the leap is on cool down closing the gap is almost impossible and the carnage spec maurader seems to have only one viable route attack and fitting that into an already over full tool bar is a serious hassel. With no knock back immunity and one real route breaker and one that never seems to work cause you are stunned or held not routed so even with the talents camoflauge doesn't seem to break anything. So you are knocked round like a paper doll and should you get in close and they don't knock you flying the dps isn't sufficient that many of the classes can toe to toe with you and if they can't they just kite.

 

If you don't believe me role a knight or a warrior and go que yourself with some flash points which will be hutt ball and come back and say what a great experience that was for you. But don't say the community doesn't know what it is talking about when cause some meaningless statics that don't have any way to judge the experience of the gamers don't spell out the problem.

 

 

^^ THIS ^^

juggernaut has already way more control than us, less micromanagement, better armor,

all other dps classes do way better dps than us.I, as a DPS ONLY CLASS, want at the very least, the SAME dps as a PURE DPS class; and i want anti CC for their LOADS of CC. That would be balance.Im not even asking for an armor buff, which other classes that can go full DPS DO HAVE.

 

pleeeeeeeeeaaaaseeeeeeee.........

[Raydoss]

Lame just Lame mean im a 49 SW M and yea im just now able to kill without any prob's but come on if you have play toon too lvl 50 before worth anything then GG lol. Believe need fix the pve play first then worry about them and the pvp lol but that just me o well ill just role a bounty hunter

[Noth]

^^ THIS ^^

juggernaut has already way more control than us, less micromanagement, better armor,

all other dps classes do way better dps than us.I, as a DPS ONLY CLASS, want at the very least, the SAME dps as a PURE DPS class; and i want anti CC for their LOADS of CC. That would be balance.Im not even asking for an armor buff, which other classes that can go full DPS DO HAVE.

 

pleeeeeeeeeaaaaseeeeeeee.........

 

Tank Jugg has way more control than you. Dps Jugg, not so much (they get push which is not way more control). Heavy armor is only about 5% increase in mitigation of energy and kinetic damage. Cloak of pain is there to offset this and in my opinion more than makes up for it. You have more anti CC than a jugg as well. You have more pursuit methods than juggs as well.

[Kemic]

*Stares at the displacement talent* No ranged root huh? *Stares at force camouflage with a 30% movement speed boost* No cloak with speed boost huh?

 

No where do I say you are fine. No where do I say that those things are baseline. I simply say you have more tools to stay close and get close than a Jugg/Guard does. Try being less defensive.

 

Camouflage only lasts 4 seconds, and it says it has a 30% speed boost, but it feels like you're actually gettting slowed down when you use it. I believe I have a FRAPS video which actually shows this effect on my desktop at home (I'm currently on the move on my laptop), but I'd be more than happy to get a good clean video of this ability in use outside of combat or pvp warzones if you really need to see how weak and almost useless it really is. Don't get me wrong, it has its uses, but I don't believe it is as intended.

[darthtejas]

Hi George, firstly its great to see feedback (good or bad) but I have to wonder at times what parses of data you are looking at to come to such conclusions?

 

Sadly not enabling the combat log has forced players into pretty much theorycrafting without any data, I understand you guys have all the data but if you enabled the combat log you would be enabling the community to aid you in the development of classes.

 

Whilst your right Warrior (I empahsise this as its not just Jugg/Guardian its Marauder/Knight also) have issues staying in melee range - I fail to see how you can ignore Marauder and state only Jugg will be getting buffs... Both classes suffer from the exact same "melee" orientated issues.

 

In the developers wisdom they decided to give all ranged the majority of the stuns and cc (whilst already having the huge benefit of range) whilst leaving all melee classes at a distinct disadvantage in PVP - how many times has someone got into range, got knocked away/slowed/stunned - charged back in to get knocked back again (knockbacks not being affected by resolve and resolve not working for the most part) Its a lot.

 

The Warrior class overall needs a proper stun or knockback, I read elsewhere the suggestion to give us "Slam" You pickup your opponent and slam him to the ground interupting any cast and stunning for 3-4 seconds.. It fits perfectly with the class and isn't gamebreaking.

 

Also Pommel Strike/Savage kick - these are 2 horrible "tease" abilities, here 2 hard hitting damage dealing abilities that don't work in pvp or on pve bosses. Merge them into 1 ability and enable them to work in PVP.

 

To summarise Warrior classes aren't broken nor need huge buffs, they need tweaks (you are right in saying fixing the combat animation and combat system/delay will go a huge way in making the classes more viable - fixing Choke/Ravage/Smash to work 100% and properly would also go a long way) I would suggest you implement one/some of the following :

 

Pommel Strike/Savage Kick - Combine into 1 ability, average the damage, enable on all types of enemies.

 

CC - Give us a proper stun or knockback.

 

Increase the range on all saber throws.

 

Make Obliterate a class core ability and make it a 20 yard range. (having 2 charges would make the class far more viable in pvp)

___________________________________________________

 

This. You are dead on, and I 100% agree as playing the Maurader. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Nirosu]

Nothing about fixing when smash does damage? The ability does damage after the animation and in the spot where the animation began. That is just wrong. Either make smash do the damage at the start of the animation or make smash do damage at the spot where the animation ends. NOT (do the damage at end of animation and at the beginning position).

[Novock]

As a 50 Juggernaut, I'm worried that that change will be a significant buff to our ball carrying in Huttball, essentially letting us move up to 90m in 4 GCDs.

 

So you charge an opponent ----> 30m (up to) -----> force push him forward (resets charge) ----> charge to him again then force leap to your teammate out ahead of you. Wow that won't become an overkil skill in hutball at all. Can you imagine if you had a Sorceror to pull you at the end of that. Good grief.

[Noth]

Camouflage only lasts 4 seconds, and it says it has a 30% speed boost, but it feels like you're actually gettting slowed down when you use it. I believe I have a FRAPS video which actually shows this effect on my desktop at home (I'm currently on the move on my laptop), but I'd be more than happy to get a good clean video of this ability in use outside of combat or pvp warzones if you really need to see how weak and almost useless it really is. Don't get me wrong, it has its uses, but I don't believe it is as intended.

 

I have marauders use it all the time on me. It typically buys them enough time to either ensure and escape, or pop a health pack to change the tide of the fight. The speed boost is noticable. I barely notice the speed boost on Oblit, but I know it is there. It a great ability, and I see good marauders make great use for it and I crush marauders who use it stupidly.

[MoobooMagoo]

I'm too lazy to read the entire thread but here is my comment to the OP:

 

I know what you mean. Every single guardian tank I have ever grouped with has a problem with holding threat. I don't know if I just have been grouping with bad players (I have only played with pugs) but it seems unlikely that every single one would have the same problem. This is just what I've noticed while playing.

[Viga]

So lets see....

 

Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller

 

We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage.

 

Other classes? Try comparing them to a marauder and let me know how they compare to our ability to stay within melee range. The first AC's that need a good hard look at in this department are the marauders/sentinels, not jugs/guards. My sole purpose is to DPS and I cant do that when every friggin class has so many CC abilities (and some of which have multiple effects on ONE button) I can't do what I'm designed to do. You want a disadvantage? Try that on a medium armor melee character... that's your disadvantage.

 

Originally Posted by GeorgZoeller

 

For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game.

 

Agreed and I like it this way. Its great and frustrating all at the same time. I just want to be able to do all that intensive gameplay. The ability lag and lack of cc clearing makes it not so fun.