Papazmurf Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 We can only assume what is the intent of the seller, unless of course, people around these parts are somehow capable of locating and reading the seller's mind from far away. IMO, that part is actually irrelevant. Obviously it's not irrelevant in your opinion. You still dodged my question though. You are right and we can only assume. It doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about why sellers are listing high prices that look eerily similar to the low prices. You said we can only assume. I'd take it a step further and say there might even be logic to our assumptions. Doesn't mean an assumption is right or wrong. Why is it so hard to answer the question as to what you think these sellers intentions are? It may have nothing to do with the topic at hand in actuality but I'd still like to see your insight. Come on, humor me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 OK apologies, it's late here and I'm getting tired. Is it just the fractional part that's causing the issue here? I only mentioned that as a reply to Darth wickeds query over whether the listing was misleading. It is, as you pointed out, probably only used by scammers. What I was trying to say is I don't mind playing inside a world where these kind of scams exist in game but then I came here from a game where the developers actually accepted and almost condoned this kind of behavior so maybe my gaming view is a little skewed when it comes to market place listings. I'm used to it. No worries My suggestion to remove fractional currency only impacts the scammers - nobody else will be adversely effected by it. I have to assume you came from EVE...SWTOR isn't anything like that...they actually do a decent job of protecting players here most of the time. Nothing runs off good players like bad players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 * snip * It's not hard to answer the question but as pointed earlier, many times already, the answer is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. A "scam", in order to be called one, involves any number of things that the GTN prevents from ever happening, starting with any contact between the seller and the would-be buyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneezC Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) GTN = Scam free, not player inattentiveness free The one who failed in a conversation was you, surely not me. Hence, your need to infer I could potentially be a scammer. Try harder. Well being that the GTN is completely scam free then how could I have inferred you were being a scammer, unless of course you're feeling guilty about doing this sort of thing on the GTN and I touched a sore spot. I do apologise. However I still believe that just because you were inattentive does not mean it wasn't a scam. You have your opinion and I have mine. I doubt we'll be able to change each others minds at this point. Edited March 10, 2015 by SneezC quote box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SneezC Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 No worries My suggestion to remove fractional currency only impacts the scammers - nobody else will be adversely effected by it. I have to assume you came from EVE...SWTOR isn't anything like that...they actually do a decent job of protecting players here most of the time. Nothing runs off good players like bad players. True I suppose, Eve was very different experience to this, guess old habits die hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papazmurf Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) It's not hard to answer the question but as pointed earlier, many times already, the answer is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. A "scam", in order to be called one, involves any number of things that the GTN prevents from ever happening, starting with any contact between the seller and the would-be buyer. Why did you respond to my first post then? I didn't ask any questions about a scam. i asked a question about what do people think are these seller's intentions. If your answer is going to be "I think it's irrelevant" would it help if I made a different thread, and just asked why do we think people are setting high prices that look like low prices? That's really all I'm asking. I understand what you think a scam is. That has been irrelevant to anything I have asked though. Edited March 10, 2015 by Papazmurf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Why did you respond to my first post then? I didn't ask any questions about a scam. i asked a question about what do people think are these seller's intentions. If your answer is going to be "I think it's irrelevant" would it help if I made a different thread, and just asked why do we think people are setting high prices that look like low prices? That's really all I'm asking. I understand what you think a scam is. That has been irrelevant to anything I have asked though. And I said that, IMO, the intent is irrelevant and even if it was relevant, one can only assume. Unless of course, people nowadays buy stuff from the GTN while analyzing the intent of the seller. I assume their intent is to make credits but who knows, maybe they're selling stuff at cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaesha Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 9,000,123 90,001.23 With numbers this close the intentions of the person making the listing is pretty obvious. He intents to make it look as close as possible to the lower priced item so people will click it by accident because it does look so similar. scam: a dishonest scheme Intentionally trying to trick people into buying something for a higher price in this manner is a dishonest act and I'd say that meets the definition of a scam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 9,000,123 90,001.23 With numbers this close the intentions of the person making the listing is pretty obvious. He intents to make it look as close as possible to the lower priced item so people will click it by accident because it does look so similar. scam: a dishonest scheme Intentionally trying to trick people into buying something for a higher price in this manner is a dishonest act and I'd say that meets the definition of a scam. As pointed out earlier many times already: player inattentiveness ≠ scam Unless you can clearly establish that any relevant info preceding the purchase was omitted by the seller or the intermediary, how does that constitute a scam exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papazmurf Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) As pointed out earlier many times already: player inattentiveness ≠ scam Unless you can clearly establish that any relevant info preceding the purchase was omitted by the seller or the intermediary, how does that constitute a scam exactly? 1. While not directly a response to my post, not everyone analyzes a sellers intention, but that doesn't mean questions can't be asked. 2. A player or person in any scenario being inattentive and a scam are not mutually exclusive. Most scams rely and prey on the idea that a person will be inattentive. Edited March 10, 2015 by Papazmurf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaesha Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) As pointed out earlier many times already: player inattentiveness ≠ scam Unless you can clearly establish that any relevant info preceding the purchase was omitted by the seller or the intermediary, how does that constitute a scam exactly? so you're saying that if you were in a hurry and buying 20 stacks of an item you're so attentive there is no way you would ever fall prey to such an act none what so ever? Edited March 10, 2015 by Anaesha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate_Scuba Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 the only way to fix an issue with pricing would be for BW to set up a price table the tells the GTN how much such and such item is worth and sets the price accordingly as well as calculating the price for stacks. Example say plasteel is listed as worth 1000 creds a unit and someone puts in a stack of 99 the GTN would set the price at 99,000. I know this is the one thing people would hate to have added because it means they can't price gouge anymore if the prices are set in stone. Not everyone could possibly agree with the "set prices" which would break the free market of the GTN. I personally do not want my chat filled up with "WTS xyz"because no one is using a set price GTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 so you're saying that if you were in a hurry and buying 20 stacks of an item you're so attentive there is no way you would ever fall prey to such an act none what so ever? Yes. Thread over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) 2. A player or person in any scenario being inattentive and a scam are not mutually exclusive. Most scams rely and prey on the idea that a person will be inattentive. Most scams also rely on the scammer contacting the victim, not to mention misleading said victim or omitting critical info, while gaining the victim's trust. The GTN negates all that. so you're saying that if you were in a hurry and buying 20 stacks of an item you're so attentive there is no way you would ever fall prey to such an act none what so ever? Not sure how that is relevant to the question I made earlier. For what is worth, I fell prey to my inattentiveness more than once. Never in the same mold as the OP however -- plus, I never claimed I was scammed. Edited March 10, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Most scams also rely on the scammer contacting the victim, not to mention misleading said victim or omitting critical info, while gaining the victim's trust. The GTN negates all that. Not sure how that is relevant to the question I made earlier. For what is worth, I fell prey to my inattentiveness more than once. Never in the same mold as the OP however -- plus, I never claimed I was scammed. I'm not even sure why I'm responding to you since you do not care for reason, only to be stuck on your assertion that the GTN is impossible to be used for scams, while dismissing everything others have put before you as irrelevant merely because it doesn't fit your argument. But your restrictions on what constitutes a scam are all artificially fabricated. A scam is simply a means of gains through deception or trickery, nothing more. Any other requirement you add is pure fabrication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billupsat Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm not even sure why I'm responding to you since you do not care for reason, only to be stuck on your assertion that the GTN is impossible to be used for scams, while dismissing everything others have put before you as irrelevant merely because it doesn't fit your argument. But your restrictions on what constitutes a scam are all artificially fabricated. A scam is simply a means of gains through deception or trickery, nothing more. Any other requirement you add is pure fabrication. Sorry but I have to agree with him. No information was omitted, in these cases it clearly buyer error, and that is in no way a scam. Just because people get mad they lost a lot of money due to their own inattentiveness doesn't mean the seller mislead anyone or tricked anyone. The price was right there in front of them, and taking into account Bioware's response to this topic in the past its pretty clear that's there stance on it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaesha Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 The only way to "save" people from their own inattentiveness since no one can be attentive 100% of the time especially if you get home after going to the bar and decide to play TOR drunk would be to either remove the cause of the issue (the decimal points) or to have fixed prices per unit for everything that can be sold in the GTN which as scuba pointed out not everyone would agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Sorry but I have to agree with him. No information was omitted, in these cases it clearly buyer error, and that is in no way a scam. Just because people get mad they lost a lot of money due to their own inattentiveness doesn't mean the seller mislead anyone or tricked anyone. The price was right there in front of them, and taking into account Bioware's response to this topic in the past its pretty clear that's there stance on it as well. Information doesn't have to be omitted for there to be a scam. You can perform a scam with full information disclosed to the user, but in a deceptive way. Pricing your items so that it can appear to be less expensive than it really is, using a design flaw in the UI, is a form of deception. It doesn't hold up very well under scrutiny, but it clearly works often enough that people are falling for it. Edited March 10, 2015 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djiini Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Information doesn't have to be omitted for there to be a scam. You can perform a scam with full information disclosed to the user, but in a deceptive way. Pricing your items so that it can appear to be less expensive than it really is, using a design flaw in the UI, is a form of deception. It doesn't hold up very well under scrutiny, but it clearly works often enough that people are falling for it. But nothing about the UI showed a false price. They simply didn't read ALL the available info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papazmurf Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I should make it clear that I agree and the end of the day this is all buyer error. However I also think the sellers are being deceptive. Again, just because a buyer is stupid does not mean a seller was not trying to be deceptive. Can't prove intent, but I'd be surprised if it's not intended when the low price of a mat is 90,001.23 and the high price is 9,000,123 (just an example). You don't get the 2nd number without the first number. Whether people want to define it as a scam or what not I could care less. People are taking advantage of people. We can either try to help others or laugh at them and tell them not to be so stupid. If you want to take a hard line approach, it's certainly within your right. I just think it's a negative approach and encourages crap behavior. Again, I agree people need to smarter and this a totally avoidable mistake. However I don't think these deceptive sellers should be getting a free pass. When you put 100% blame on the buyer, you're saying "I'm OK with people "trying" to take advantage of dumb/inattentive/challenged/etc people". That isn't necessarily a wrong mentality, just not one I'd like to be a part of. Looks like some of us will have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) But nothing about the UI showed a false price. They simply didn't read ALL the available info. point ^ | | head The price doesn't have to be false to be deceptive either. Edited March 10, 2015 by MillionsKNives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knorlac Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Who cares if it is a scam or not. Everyone seems to have their own definition of the term. Fact is, there are sellers who price their mats in a very specific way as to maximize the chance of an inattentive buyer making a mistake. And it seems to work rather well as evidenced by all the threads about it and the amount of mats priced this way on the GTN. All in all it results in a lot of players losing a lot of and in some cases all of their creds who might play less in response to their misfortune or in some cases quit entirely. So even if we want to blame the buyer 100%, it would still make sense for BW to implement a minor fix like eliminating the decimals, on which the practice of predatory pricing relies IMO as it would serve to minimize the chances of making such a mistake and would make it unprofitable for sellers to engage in predatory pricing to begin with. Both of these effects would also be beneficial for everyone else as there would be less spam postings on the GTN and a cleaner display of prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCJK Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Funny how furiously people trying to prove that it's not a scam. Do you people think that it's only possible ''to scam'' using other illegal methods rather than scam itself? If someone preys on other people inattentiveness which sometimes results in ''prey'' doing something they would never do rationally, how is that not scam? Yeah, such ''predator'' doesn't do anything illegal, yet in some countries ''scam'' is a crime itself( though when no other illegal activities were involved it's hard to prove ''scam'' ). Let's put it this way. OP lost his credits? Yes, he did. Was he inattentive? Yes, he was. Would he lose his money hadn't someone tried to scam him? No, he wouldn't. Yeah, that's it! Actually, one more question. Has he been the only one to lose money this way? Hell, no! The number is pretty big. Yeah, now say that the world is full of idiots( when inattention is a completely different thing, but you don't care If you want to brag how you always keep your guard up in video game ). Another question is should something be done about it? Not sure. It's definitely not possible to take action against scammers. Not sure if some changes can be implemented in order to improve the situation. Probably, no. Guess, people will have to live and learn, either from their own mistakes or from mistakes of others, then take appropriate actions like the ones suggested( for example, go for GTN prices limit ). To OP: feel sorry for you, 18M is something something. You shouldn't act like it's your fault and your fault only though. Usually the ones being scammed always guilty of something, usually more than mere inattentiveness, though. But it doesn't mean that scammers are innocent, they are the one guilty in the first place. Scam is still a scam. It's always tricking people and lowering their guard. Edited March 10, 2015 by LordCJK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curulz Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) It's not hard to answer the question but as pointed earlier, many times already, the answer is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. A "scam", in order to be called one, involves any number of things that the GTN prevents from ever happening, starting with any contact between the seller and the would-be buyer. Fine, then it's not a scam according to definition. But it is deceit on the part of the seller. It's a bottom feeding leach-like method of making additional credits by trying to mislead people. So I won't call them scammers, I will call them suckfish Edited March 10, 2015 by curulz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Fine, then it's not a scam according to definition. But it is deceit on the part of the seller. It's a bottom feeding leach-like method of making additional credits for intentionally trying to mislead people designed to capitalize on those not paying close enough attention. So I won't call them scammers, I will call them suckfish That's fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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