Just blew $$18 million creds...

[Darth_Wicked]

Well thank you, I appreciate you following me. Click on my name and you can see all my forum posts Darth.

 

Remember the word you used earlier? "Hypocrite"?

 

You missed a good opportunity to not come across as such.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Anaesha]

Jesus Christ I leave for 45 minutes and you all added three more pages!!

[Thoronmir]

Do a lot of you who defend the practice on the forums do this--marking up something much too high using the decimals/commas/digits/whatever hoping that someone will misread the listing and buy something for far much more than it's worth?

 

If there was nothing wrong with this practice, why aren't people coming out and admitting to it?

I don't "defend" the practice, but I don't condemn it either. In my opinion "fault" rests solely with the buyer. But, no, I've never engaged in the practice. Neither have I ever tried to use a topless carwash to get clients for my business. Both are legitimate business practices, and both are just unsavory enough for me to not want to join. I never sell mats on the GTN. I sell green items for whatever the GTN tells me to. I sell blue and purple items for GTN list price x10. I sell adaptive armor from the few crates I've purchased over the years at whatever recent GTN activity suggests.

 

I have been guilty of an "advantageous" GTN transaction only once (I've been playing ... off and on ... since release). When I made my first Sorcerer (a couple of years ago), I stumbled upon a woefully underpriced level 11ish modded Sith body armor piece (before the advent of adaptive gear). There were three: two for around 50,000 (much more than I had at the time) and one for 500. I bought the one at 500. I always assumed the seller made a mistake, and I took blatant, unrepentant advantage of that mistake. I would do so again.

 

Perhaps all the GTN sellers who do price their items "creatively" are too busy playing the GTN to come to the forum. But I don't blame any seller for remaining anonymous here. Too many villagers with too many torches and pitchforks. Were I one of the sellers in question, I would avoid this thread and count my pretend money. The last thing I would is "defend" the practice since, as your post demonstrates, all that accomplishes is painting a target on the seller's back.

[branmakmuffin]

The issue is fundamentally that you and others don't believe the GTN can be deceptive

There is nothing about the GTN which is the least bit deceptive. It might be clunky and have search issues, but it's not deceptive. It shows the price right there for all to see.

[Pagy]

I already pointed out the deception. Taking advantage of a faulty UI to make two distinctly different numbers appear similar enough that people will mistake one for the other.

im sorry those numbers do not appear similar. they are clearly listed in a clearly, not faulty ui that can be used to sort, or search within price ranges.

 

i'm not sure someone profiting from a mistake is what i'd call a scam. the price is clearly listed.

 

if the buyer doesnt want to read the price then they exhibit the attitude that they dont care what the price is and therefore give up the right to complain.

[azudelphi]

Do a lot of you who defend the practice on the forums do this--marking up something much too high using the decimals/commas/digits/whatever hoping that someone will misread the listing and buy something for far much more than it's worth?

 

If there was nothing wrong with this practice, why aren't people coming out and admitting to it?

 

Most don't "defend the practice"; I would say most just feel that the final line is at personal responsibility of the buyer. That the static nature of the GTN's price displays give the user all the 100% accurate information to make an informed purchase. To that point, most you call defending are really just saying it doesn't matter what the person's intent is... a player who is capable of reading and understanding decimal notations should, in theory, never mess up. A player with those capabilities should be able to see and understand what they are buying. Especially if they have utilized the existing tools such as sorting, price limits, confirmation window, etc. And if, in a moment of weakness or inattentiveness, they do mess up, they would probably accept that they made a mistake and move on in quiet dignity.

 

The "debate' that seems to never die is one of terminology. I suspect it is a matter of point of whether calling it a "scam" or not affects the way you address the player who is out credits. Because if it is a scam, then the player who is out credits is a "victim"... which carries a slew of connotations of its own and shifts the "blame" or "responsibility" away from that player by some amount.

 

I, for one, have never participated in this predatory posting. I don't condone it, I just think the responsibility for the results of a transaction lies fully on the person who activates said transaction; assuming they know beforehand what the exact terms of the transaction shall be, which the GTN does.

 

It isn't perfect though... right alignment, decimal unification, and automatic sorting by lowest price or lowest price per unit would be changes in a better direction.

[Papazmurf]

Which isn't what you just did, correct?

 

It's a definition from a reputable dictionary. Perhaps you can find a better one? I'm showing the basis for my definition. Perhaps you should show yours, otherwise your definition is just your opinion and that doesn't hold any weight.

 

 

Also...

How is the seller deceiving people again? Explain.

 

I told you we were going to disagree. You don't think a person selling mats at a higher price point that looks similar to a lower price point is deceiving. My argument is the high price looks similar enough to a lower price that it misleads the buyer into thinking they are getting the best deal. Mislead is a synonym for deceive. We aren't going to agree on this, but that's where I'm coming from.

 

Are we discussing a listing that once up on the GTN NEVER changes, or an Rorschach inkblot?

 

Yeah well in the inkblot example one inkblot has many different interpretations. The GTN has many different prices for the same item (in this case mats), some looking quite similar, but actually being very different.

 

Sure the prices change. That's irrelevant to the what a buyer might see at the moment in time they are actually looking to buy.

 

Also, just to reiterate for those new to the fray, I agree that this whole scenario is first and foremost the buyers fault, I just also think there are sleazy sellers.

[TUXs]

im sorry those numbers do not appear similar.

 

Now you're trying to hard lol...of course they appear SIMILAR. To deny that is just ludicrous.

[TychoCreel]

It isn't perfect though... right alignment, decimal unification, and automatic sorting by lowest price or lowest price per unit would be changes in a better direction.

 

I agree.

[branmakmuffin]

Now you're trying to hard lol...of course they appear SIMILAR. To deny that is just ludicrous.

If you want to get technical, the sequences of numerals are similar (9s and 0s with a 123 at the end). But the numbers are not very similar. What makes a number "similar" to another? They are both even? Both odd? Both prime? Both evenly divisible by 9?

[TUXs]

If you want to get technical, the sequences of numerals are similar (9s and 0s with a 123 at the end).

Good. I'm glad you can admit you were wrong.

[llayles]

Do a lot of you who defend the practice on the forums do this--marking up something much too high using the decimals/commas/digits/whatever hoping that someone will misread the listing and buy something for far much more than it's worth?

 

If there was nothing wrong with this practice, why aren't people coming out and admitting to it?

 

Yes and no. I sell stacks of 99 mats at a time, undercut by just a little bit and round up. It sometimes comes out to a strange repeating decimal. Am I selling stacks for millions? No. I have too much faith in the competence of the community as a whole. This thread is swaying my opinion to the contrary though.

[Darth_Wicked]

It's a definition from a reputable dictionary. Perhaps you can find a better one? I'm showing the basis for my definition. Perhaps you should show yours, otherwise your definition is just your opinion and that doesn't hold any weight.

 

* sigh *

 

My definition is in the link you just quoted, which is far more thorough.

 

Talk about player inattentiveness...

 

I told you we were going to disagree. You don't think a person selling mats at a higher price point that looks similar to a lower price point is deceiving. My argument is the high price looks similar enough to a lower price that it misleads the buyer into thinking they are getting the best deal. Mislead is a synonym for deceive. We aren't going to agree on this, but that's where I'm coming from.

 

Similar ≠ Identical

 

What helps to discern between the two? Player attentiveness.

 

Yeah well in the inkblot example one inkblot has many different interpretations. The GTN has many different prices for the same item (in this case mats), some looking quite similar, but actually being very different.

 

You do realize that a price can't be interpreted, right?

 

That five million credits will ALWAYS be five million credits, whether your brain acknowledges it as five million credits or five credits. Right?

 

Sure the prices change. That's irrelevant to the what a buyer might see at the moment in time they are actually looking to buy.

 

Once the listing goes up, the price NEVER changes. EVER.

 

Not until the listing goes down -- either because it expired, or someone bought the item.

 

Also, just to reiterate for those new to the fray, I agree that this whole scenario is first and foremost the buyers fault, I just also think there are sleazy sellers.

 

Seller intent is irrelevant.

 

All the necessary information is in the listing and said information is painstakingly accurate.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Darth_Wicked

[Pagy]

Now you're trying to hard lol...of course they appear SIMILAR. To deny that is just ludicrous.

it;s like saying 999 and 99 appear similar.

 

they have 9's in them.

 

thinking they look similar tells me that they should sit in a 2nd/3rd grade classrom

[TUXs]

it;s like saying 999 and 99 appear similar.

 

they have 9's in them.

 

thinking they look similar tells me that they should sit in a 2nd/3rd grade classrom

Of course they look similar Pagy...are you seriously arguing that they don't??? What the hell does SIMILAR mean to you?

[branmakmuffin]

Good. I'm glad you can admit you were wrong.

I have no problem admitting that you're wrong.

[Pagy]

Now you're trying to hard lol...of course they appear SIMILAR. To deny that is just ludicrous.

it;s like saying 999 and 99 appear similar.

 

they have 9's in them.

 

thinking they look similar tells me that they should sit in a 2nd/3rd grade classrom

 

now, 984943217 and 9849433217 look similar, this is why we use delimiters as does the GTN....984,943,217 vs 9,849,433,217. now they look completely different.

[branmakmuffin]

Of course they look similar Pagy...are you seriously arguing that they don't??? What the hell does SIMILAR mean to you?

Why don't you answer the similar question I posed to you?

 

Here it is again: what makes one number similar to another? They are both even? Both odd? Both prime? Both evenly divisible by 9?

 

Maybe we can find a pair of numbers that shares all those traits.

[Papazmurf]

* sigh *

 

My definition is in the link you just quoted, which is far more thorough.

 

Talk about player inattentiveness...

 

It's also Wikipedia, which anyone can edit. I don't think Wikipedia is a more reputable source than Merriam-Webster. You may think differently, but if that's the case then we can never find common ground because we'll be using different definitions.

 

 

 

 

Similar ≠ Identical

 

What helps to discern between the two? Player attentiveness.

 

It's hard to argue when you are arguing things I've never claimed. I've never claimed anything being identical, only similar. Something only needs to be similar to misleading...

 

 

You do realize that a price can't be interpreted, right?

 

That five million credits will ALWAYS be five million credits, whether your brain acknowledges it as five million credits or five credits. Right?

 

I agree with this and I've said that I agree the prices listed are 100% accurate. Doesn't mean the listing isn't misleading to look like a lower price.

 

 

 

Once the listing goes up, the price NEVER changes. EVER.

 

Not until the listing goes down -- either because it expired, or someone bought the item.

 

Again, how does this affect a buyer who is looking at a current list and is looking to buy at that moment? All they see is what is on there at that time.

 

 

Seller intent is irrelevant.

 

All the necessary information is in the listing and said information is painstakingly accurate.

 

I agree the information is all in the listing and that it is accurate. I don't think you'll find I've said otherwise. You however think seller intent is irrelevant, but I think it is.

 

OP said he knew it was his fault. He was inattentive, but I don't think you even see these threads being made without sellers trying to be "creative" or imo, sleazy.

[EllieAnne]

I already pointed out the deception. Taking advantage of a faulty UI to make two distinctly different numbers appear similar enough that people will mistake one for the other.

 

If you cannot tell the difference between 2 digits after a period and 3 digits after a comma - well even ignoring the whole comma/period thing it comes down to if you cannot tell the difference between this many <holds up two fingers> and this many <holds up three fingers> then maybe you shouldn't be on GTN, SWTOR, a computer, or even a rolly chair.

[Papazmurf]

Why don't you answer the similar question I posed to you?

 

Here it is again: what makes one number similar to another? They are both even? Both odd? Both prime? Both evenly divisible by 9?

 

Maybe we can find a pair of numbers that shares all those traits.

 

This is a valid question. I think my argument was not the numbers are actually similar. 90,001.23 is definitively different than 9,000,123. I would say looking at them side by side, they look similar. They are not the same by any stretch though. Two distinct numbers.

[MillionsKNives]

im sorry those numbers do not appear similar. they are clearly listed in a clearly, not faulty ui that can be used to sort, or search within price ranges.

 

i'm not sure someone profiting from a mistake is what i'd call a scam. the price is clearly listed.

 

if the buyer doesnt want to read the price then they exhibit the attitude that they dont care what the price is and therefore give up the right to complain.

 

They don't appear similar to you maybe, but they are similar enough that people make the mistake often. It's not merely the fact that people are making a mistake that makes it a scam. It's the fact that people are knowingly taking advantage of the fact that others make these mistakes commonly enough, and producing listings which are most likely to result in a mistake.

 

And yes, the UI is faulty. It is badly designed in such a way that it predisposes players to reading otherwise distinctly different numbers as more similar than they really are.

 

Why don't you answer the similar question I posed to you?

 

Here it is again: what makes one number similar to another? They are both even? Both odd? Both prime? Both evenly divisible by 9?

 

Maybe we can find a pair of numbers that shares all those traits.

 

Since we are discussing the issue of people reading the numbers incorrectly from their screen, similar in this case would be the sequences of digits and separators.

 

If you cannot tell the difference between 2 digits after a period and 3 digits after a comma - well even ignoring the whole comma/period thing it comes down to if you cannot tell the difference between this many <holds up two fingers> and this many <holds up three fingers> then maybe you shouldn't be on GTN, SWTOR, a computer, or even a rolly chair.

 

Thanks for pointing out how superior you are to those who fall for this. Does it make you feel better about yourself?

[Pagy]

Of course they look similar Pagy...are you seriously arguing that they don't??? What the hell does SIMILAR mean to you?

well i dbl posted; included an example of how delimiters remove confusion with similar numbers.

 

the difference between 99 and 999 is...well 900. similarity can be based on thousands of factors as bran pointed out but if someone can't tell the difference between 99 and 999 then i fear for our education system...that or they are a painter living in guam.

If you cannot tell the difference between 2 digits after a period and 3 digits after a comma - well even ignoring the whole comma/period thing it comes down to if you cannot tell the difference between this many <holds up two fingers> and this many <holds up three fingers> then maybe you shouldn't be on GTN, SWTOR, a computer, or even a rolly chair.

^qft Edited March 10, 2015 by Pagy

[Pagy]

It's the fact that people are knowingly taking advantage of the fact that others make these mistakes commonly enough, and producing listings which are most likely to result in a mistake.

100% of the blame is on the buyer, sorry.

 

not 99%, not 99.999999%, 100%. the price is listed, clearly. if the buyer doesnt want to agree to the price, then they can choose not to buy it. if the buyer makes a mistake, then it is completely their fault.

 

i just dont see it as a scam because the seller is doing absolutely nothing wrong.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Pagy

[MillionsKNives]

100% of the blame is on the buyer, sorry.

 

not 99%, not 99.999999%, 100%. the price is listed, clearly. if the buyer doesnt want to agree to the price, then they can choose not to buy it. if the buyer makes a mistake, then it is completely their fault.

 

i just dont see it as a scam because the seller is doing absolutely nothing wrong.

 

Of course it's the buyer's fault for not being careful enough. But not being careful and making a mistake does not preclude it from being a scam. If that were the case there would be very few actual examples of scams, since the majority of them involve someone making a stupid mistake. You'd have to be an idiot to click random links from emails nowadays, and yet people still do and it's still a scam.