Iceroid Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 The replies in here are priceless. No matter what is done, somebody cries. Just accept it and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Are they done with bans already or will this take days? Am curious because to see the impact of the full ban wave on the game population. i highly doubt you would notice day over day. there are probably more people not logging in any given day for various reasons, than what would be hit by this ban long term or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Are they done with bans already or will this take days? Am curious because to see the impact of the full ban wave on the game population. The action has been taken and over with move along these are not the droids your looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyraineAlei Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Yes. Never said I wasn't extreme at times. On one hand, I agree with TUX that some people who were/are still calling for more punishments on the exploiters, are beating a dead horse and going a bit far. But, sir TUX, you seem happy to spam those AoEs to the extreme, when your typed words seem to imply that the non-"witch-hunters" who think this was a good punishment, and are glad to see the punishment posted (not the punished person's names, just the punishment), as being extreme as well. Well, *takes the popcorn out of DW's popcorn stash* Mine went missing. Think I have a page or two to read now, once this is posted. Edit: Aww, no new posts while I was typing. Edited January 29, 2015 by LyraineAlei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Are they done with bans already or will this take days? Am curious because to see the impact of the full ban wave on the game population. I would imagine they are mostly done. Then again I've been wrong before about BW's pace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnewton Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I hope "that certain guild" we know was responsible for the purposeful spreading of the exploit was included in the permanent bans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Hey folks, As I talked about in my previous post we needed to finalize our data and ensure that we were ready to move on appropriate actions for those players who abused the Ravager’s Exploit. Since we have been a bit more open in our process regarding this particular exploit, we thought it would be best to bring it full circle and tell you specifically what we are doing to those players. As of this post, our actions against players has begun. Here are the types of actions we are taking based on the severity of their exploits: Received a warning along with anywhere between 1-7 days of in-game suspension time.Anyone who received an in-game suspension will also lose their forum privileges for the same period of time. [*]For our most egregious offenders, they will have received a suspension up to a permanent suspension. Inside of those categories of player’s it is also possible they could have very specific additional actions taken against them including: Removal of inappropriately obtained high-end gear and crafting materialsRemoval of credits and commendations We know that one of the gameplay impacts from this exploit was an influx of crafters being able to make items which they reverse engineered from ill-gotten gains. Any player who exploited (regardless of severity) and gained a crafting pattern is likely to see that pattern removed. So all of you know what to expect, this is an example of the messaging sent to those players who are receiving an in-game suspension: Dear Customer, We are contacting you regarding your account for Star Wars™: The Old Republic™. This is to notify you that we will be taking action against your account for a violation of our Terms of Service. After a thorough investigation, we discovered the following Terms of Service violations: This account participated in looting the final chest of the Ravager’s Operation without legitimately completing the content. By doing so, this account was able to acquire high-end gear, commendations or crafting patterns, or crafting materials, in a manner violating our Terms of Service and the related Rules of Conduct, specifically: “… you may not engage in any of the following behavior: Exploit any bug in the Service to gain unfair advantage in the game and/or communicate the existence of any such bug (either directly or through the public posting) to any other user of the Service.” The action taken against your account is a <TIME> suspension and the removal of any learned crafting recipes from the use of this exploit from any characters on this account that participated. It is important to note that should this account partake in any future exploit, it will receive a more severe action up to and including permanent suspension. We appreciate your continued participation with SWTOR and remind you the game needs to remain fun and engaging for everyone. To prevent future situations where you may encounter a potential exploit, we encourage you to review our Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct which can be found here: http://tos.ea.com/legalapp/WEBTERMS/US/en/PC/, and here: http://www.swtor.com/legalnotices/rulesofconduct If you feel that this action has been applied in error, please contact swtoraccountdisputes@bioware.com. Sincerely, <i>Star Wars ™</i>: The Old Republic™ Terms of Service We didn’t take these actions lightly and reviewed every account to determine where we could be lenient. From our end, this was a no win situation. We feel responsible for allowing the exploit to occur and remain in the game for an unreasonable length of time, but we also cannot and will not condone cheating. Thankfully, a large majority of our players didn’t exploit at all, but unfortunately, some of those who did have been with us for a long time, even all the way back to launch. It breaks our hearts to see a few of those loyal players partake in the exploit. Still, it would be unfair to not punish those players, and so we had to take action. We have all learned some valuable lessons this past month or so, and we’re hopeful to catch these types of situations long before they get released or very quickly thereafter. Please continue to do what you can to notify us quickly should we create another situation where someone can benefit by exploiting a bug in the game. We appreciate your understanding of our position and hope you’ll continue to enjoy your time with us. We have a lot of great additions coming to SWTOR this year and we look forward to sharing them with you. -eric Excellent communication Eric... This is the sort of fast, concise communications we would love to see more of from you Now if we could get some feed back about what you are planning or are doing to people using Bots, people using cheats in PVP... and other dodgy behaviour in game like credit spamming and people buying these credits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DurdensWrath Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 So 15 days after you closed the exploit? I'm guessing it was a bit more widespread than you wanted to let on. Have to admit, I am impressed you are acknowledging this. Still one has to wonder if there has been action taken internally for allowing this to remain as long as it did. Wasn't this exploit found on the PTS? I know that most of the bugs we've been seeing lately were on the PTS, and Eric and the devs just choose to ignore feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icykill_ Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I hope "that certain guild" we know was responsible for the purposeful spreading of the exploit was included in the permanent bans. Yes... Any guilds found abusing exploits and cheats of any kind should be banned permanently or if only a few members doing it... Then the guild should get a warning so the GM and officers can police it... If it is found that the GM is a culprit... Then they should permanently lose the ability to be a GM and possibly disband the guild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Wasn't this exploit found on the PTS? I know that most of the bugs we've been seeing lately were on the PTS, and Eric and the devs just choose to ignore feedback. Thats what I was talking about action being taken internally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nrevox Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 They shouldn't have said a thing tbh...they should have pulled the game down, removed the loot and started it back up again - problem solved, fraction of the bans to process. However...their neglect of this issue for nearly a full month, and their inaction on anything big in the past, made taking the chance seemingly risk free to players. I get what you are saying bro, but I disagree. making the community aware that they are handing out punishment and will not tolerate cheating is a good thing. cheating is the bad behavior .. not the correction. if you hide it and don't address it with the community, people think nothing ever happened to exploiters and BW doesn't care. I see posts all over these forums that say "BW doesn't care ..... " which is BS and just meant to aggro or jab at the devs. I'm glad this is over and hopefully bug fixes are coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) Yes... Any guilds found abusing exploits and cheats of any kind should be banned permanently or if only a few members doing it... Then the guild should get a warning so the GM and officers can police it... If it is found that the GM is a culprit... Then they should permanently lose the ability to be a GM and possibly disband the guild So if they'd changed their mind and said "You know, excessively using the slot machine for jawa junk was an exploit", kill the guilds? Or if they declared that regular running of level 55 ops for elites/ultimates was an exploit, kill the guilds? If sending gear purchased with comms to alts by putting its mods into legacy bound gear was an exploit, kill the guild? If pulling the Beast in the Atthis flashpoint off its platform, or standing on the ship's wing for the Mandalorian Raider's bonus boss were exploits, kill the guild? All of those were things that had been called exploits by one person or another, sometimes rather vociferously. We only know that those weren't punishable exploits and this was, because after it's patched they're punishing this one. The pro-punishment say people "should have known" that this would be a punishable exploit (unlike all those others) but if they had punished people who ran the ops for ultimate coms you know that many would be saying we "should have known" that also would be punished. Again, this is done. Fine. 1-7 day bans, well, no biggie either way. Removal of gear may be biggie, since they already presumably got rid of the gear it replaced, but it's done. Anything longer than a 7 day ban I think unreasonable, but it's done. Going forward, there needs to be some way of knowing "this is an exploit and you may be punished for doing it" vs. "You are using a game mechanic in a very clever way the developers never considered and they may make it so it doesn't work but it's not an exploit." Or is clever approaches inherently inappropriate for the game? Edited January 29, 2015 by GadgetDon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Thats what I was talking about action being taken internally. Some one should of got a over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Here's what I'd like to see going forward: When Bioware discovers something and decides it's an exploit, they've got three choices: (a) shut the game down as soon as possible and turn off the exploited op/flashpoint/item/power/whatever until they can fix it. (b) decide to live with it and its effects until they can fix it. © announce that it's an exploit, that you'll be tracking it and anyone who does it after the announcement will find themselves punished - and follow through on the punishment. A simple punishment, roll back all their characters on all their accounts to as they were before the announcement (or the downtime before that). It's straightforward, it's transparent, and leaves no room for question about what is or isn't illegal behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezOneTenTen Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Again, this is done. Fine. 1-7 day bans, well, no biggie either way. Removal of gear may be biggie, since they already presumably got rid of the gear it replaced, but it's done. Anything longer than a 7 day ban I think unreasonable, but it's done. What good is a 1 day suspension for somebody who logs in every 2 days? What good is a 6 day suspension for somebody who logs in once a week? Most people wont even know they got a suspension unless they check their emails every day. The point of a punishment isnt for the sake of being punished. Its supposed to be a deterrent. Repeat offenders repeat because the punishment doesnt effect them. How is not even knowing you were punished a deterrant from you doing it again? How is knowing somebody got suspended for 7 days a deterrant for you who logs in every 10 days? I'm in favor of very stiff punishments because the harsher the punishment, the less likely it will happen a second time. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of those who did this exploit, did the Nefra exploit, and the EC exploit and many other exploits. And because this "punishment" didnt actually effect them, they will do the next exploit causing it to run rampant also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamtas Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 So if they'd changed their mind and said "You know, excessively using the slot machine for jawa junk was an exploit", kill the guilds? Or if they declared that regular running of level 55 ops for elites/ultimates was an exploit, kill the guilds? If sending gear purchased with comms to alts by putting its mods into legacy bound gear was an exploit, kill the guild? If pulling the Beast in the Atthis flashpoint off its platform, or standing on the ship's wing for the Mandalorian Raider's bonus boss were exploits, kill the guild? All of those were things that had been called exploits by one person or another, sometimes rather vociferously. We only know that those weren't punishable exploits and this was, because after it's patched they're punishing this one. The pro-punishment say people "should have known" that this would be a punishable exploit (unlike all those others) but if they had punished people who ran the ops for ultimate coms you know that many would be saying we "should have known" that also would be punished. Again, this is done. Fine. 1-7 day bans, well, no biggie either way. Removal of gear may be biggie, since they already presumably got rid of the gear it replaced, but it's done. Anything longer than a 7 day ban I think unreasonable, but it's done. Going forward, there needs to be some way of knowing "this is an exploit and you may be punished for doing it" vs. "You are using a game mechanic in a very clever way the developers never considered and they may make it so it doesn't work but it's not an exploit." Or is clever approaches inherently inappropriate for the game? Too many people keep trying to use the slot machine as an example of an exploit. The slot machine had unintended economy and crew skill implications by the rate of drops. The use of it, however excessive was intended. Forming an op group and running characters into an operation to claim loot without having participated in the op is not a natural or intended use. Then the slot machine was annouced to "not be an exploit" in the forums by Muso .The two are not comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeNaCe-NZ Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Well to be fair he STARTED only going after the people calling for harsh punishment. Then others walked into his AOE and had their flags turned on. I must have missed the bit where people called for punishment any harsher than what is being dished out. Oh though I do recall a few sarcastic people wanting to see everyone perm banned that most ignored but a few trolls, like him, must have latched onto those couple of "out there" posts and applied that ideology onto everyone who wanted to see cheaters punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezOneTenTen Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I must have missed the bit where people called for punishment any harsher than what is being dished out. Oh though I do recall a few sarcastic people wanting to see everyone perm banned that most ignored but a few trolls, like him, must have latched onto those couple of "out there" posts and applied that ideology onto everyone who wanted to see cheaters punished. I posted afterwards, but me. I call for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezOneTenTen Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I posted afterwards, but me. I call for it. Actually I should correct myself. I dont necessarily care now that its been done. But next time they should stiffen up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Too many people keep trying to use the slot machine as an example of an exploit. The slot machine had unintended economy and crew skill implications by the rate of drops. The use of it, however excessive was intended. Forming an op group and running characters into an operation to claim loot without having participated in the op is not a natural or intended use. Then the slot machine was annouced to "not be an exploit" in the forums by Muso .The two are not comparable. There were many threads on the forums where people said the payoff amounts had to be a bug, and so people using it were exploiting. There were enough people saying it that Musco felt he had to say "it's not an exploit". So my point is that "this mechanic is too good to be true" and "people are calling it an exploit" are NOT sufficient to be used as proof that someone knew they were doing something illegal and should be punished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 I must have missed the bit where people called for punishment any harsher than what is being dished out. Evidently, you did. Such as the multiple posters who stated that everyone who used the exploit even once should be perma-banned, or stripped of all gear and equipment. Such as the multiple posers who stated that they didn't care what effect banning "exploiters" on the game, including causing it to implode and shut down if that's what it came to. Such as the multiple posters who have continuously accused anyone who has reacted to the calls for blood by so much as saying "wait a minute, let's be rational" of being "one of the cheaters trying to cover up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deezOneTenTen Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 There were many threads on the forums where people said the payoff amounts had to be a bug, and so people using it were exploiting. There were enough people saying it that Musco felt he had to say "it's not an exploit". So my point is that "this mechanic is too good to be true" and "people are calling it an exploit" are NOT sufficient to be used as proof that someone knew they were doing something illegal and should be punished. Ignorance of a crime doesnt make it ok to commit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ignorance of a crime doesnt make it ok to commit. Even if it's not a crime until the police officer declares it is and starts arresting people for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 Ignorance of a crime doesnt make it ok to commit. People like to say that, but in an actual court, intent is usually taken into consideration. Also, this was taking advantage of a bug in a video game to extra cookies from the infinite jar -- not a criminal act. No one was hurt, no laws were broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neoforcer Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 blood by so much as saying "wait a minute, let's be rational" of being "one of the cheaters trying to cover up". Ya every one that said fair punishment was accused of the exploit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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