Star Wars MMO History Lesson: SWG's "Vocal Minority"

[comestbest]

People were mad that not only was it dumbing down crafting with NGE it was dumbing down every thing else. Hell you could kill a Krayt Dragon with one hand and using 2 mouse buttons.

 

and they made jedi a starter profession whereas before it took months of work

 

 

basically it made the game a lot easier and dumbed down and really messed up the crafting system.

 

 

the end result = more than half of the subscibers quit and never came back. so you see dumbing down the game and making it easy with something like the slot machine will actually cost the game subscribers.

[Highlandscot]

TL;DR (Because I can't comprehension basic English and/or have the attention-span of a gnat): COMMUNICATE AND ADDRESS CUSTOMER ISSUES DON'T DISREGARD PEOPLE AS THE "VOCAL MINORITY"

 

I don't post on these forums much, because for the most part I just stop in from time to time when I want to see a continuous stream of train wrecks that is this pathetic whine-fest of forums. But I saw this thread and now I must admit I'm kind of curious here. Which group was/is the majority?

 

First we had the slot machine in its original form. Many threads (many, many threads) filled with complaints. Was that the majority or the minority? Then, after the undetermined-ority voiced their collective anger over the accessibility of pixels, there were changes made to the slot machine. Many more complaints. Are the complaints *now* a version of the majority?

 

Speaking strictly as a civilian, I can understand BioWare's reluctance to address these forums more than they do. No matter what they say, no matter what changes they make to the game, there will be dozens of people here that do nothing but complain, usually with an ultimatum to do things "their way" or else they will quit the game. (Usually in ALL CAPS, so we know that this time they really, really, mean it. Not fooling around this time!)

 

Like I said earlier, I don't post much on these forums, or read them on a regular basis. Usually, my interaction with BioWare comes in the form of my just playing the game, because I really enjoy it. I see a lot of other people doing that, and not wasting time or elections posting here. So I have to wonder if *we* are the majority?

 

Ah, I suppose it doesn't really matter. People having the audacity to just go playing the game and having fun can't possibly merit any consideration from BioWare.

[ScarletBlaze]

yes they fixed it. crafting isn't supposed to have anything to do with a slot machine.

 

Which by reading most of the posts (not all) in the forums lately everyone agrees with. What it seems to be the problem is that they completely changed the drop rate on everything else and it seems to fail more than you get anything.

 

I really don't know what the rate is since I think I may have used the slot machine once in the two weeks we put one in the guild house but I have read quite a few posts and it seems to me from my reading people are not complaining so much about the mats as they are the other items as well. (Of course there will be a few that are complaining about the mats)

Edited January 23, 2015 by ScarletBlaze

[Transcendent]

As for dismissal and snarky comments about 'vocal' whatevers

 

So what does the silence by BioWare on this issue say to you personally?

 

To me, personally, it clearly reads as "We're not really listening to you, and we're not going to address your concerns until something else distracts you all." - Aside from removing posts that contain the publicly available CSM loot tables.

 

That speaks volumes sometimes. Heads in sand, or heads so far up their own...?

 

A little communication would have cooled the situation down, such as "We're going to monitor and potentially adjust the drop rates until we feel that they're at an appropriate level" or something along those lines. However the flat out silence on the issue?

 

Not very respectful to the community.

[TUXs]

Sure, but here's the thing: there's ALWAYS a customer outcry no matter what they do.

No one says they shouldn't communicate more - I don't even think there's such thing as too much communication. But this community is probably one of the worst ones I've ever seen in my entire life as a gamer.

 

They are never satisfied, they ALWAYS complain about every single thing that changes or they complain that nothing ever changes and so on and so forth.

 

And it's really easy to see it for yourself. Check the forum next time they add or change something and see for yourself the "slap in the face" and "I'm quitting" threads over the simplest change.

 

There's feedback and then there's just complaining.

Who cares? If they're avoiding the forums because of all the mean customers, they're in the wrong business. A good community team can weed out the legit complaints and the bull **** whining.

 

Players being passionate about your game and vocal is a GOOD THING...it shows an attachment beyond entertainment. The more players that comment, the better (good or bad), because they're invested enough in your product that they took their time to post something.

 

Even complaining is driven by something. A good community team can figure out what it is, and I have more faith in Eric than you seem to, that he can weed out the BS from the real issues.

[Darth_Wicked]

If the future of the game depends on... a slot machine, then it's better if it dies.

 

Pretty much.

[Holocron]

The point was not in regards to what the NGE or the Slot Machine did - it was more to the point that there needs to be communication, and never a 'dismissal' of customers because you think they are the "Vocal Minority".

 

Totally 100% Agree! Dev teams can't seem to learn this enough. It doesn't matter if the devs give potentially wrong info, or don't meet a deadline, what really matters is that they interact and communicate very often with the players. There would be no lawsuits, there would be no players leaving, there wouldn't be huge forum outcrying, there would simply be minor bumps that the players would quickly get over. And all that can be achieved just by talking to us (often).

[Jandi]

You're crazy.

 

Nerfing the slot machine did NOT make me lose 6 months worth of MINDLESS grinding. The slot machine is equatable to resource crates and indestructible item kits in SWG, which both completely devastated crafting cause only the wealthy crafters could buy the crates out and put prices through the roof, the indestructible kits meant that no one had a REASON to buy cheap grind armour.

 

But to say nerfing it is like me losing my DJK.... get the hell out.

 

One thing I have to say though. The thing that the SOE devs understood too late is, that the silent majority? Yeah, they follow the vocal minority cause the vocal minority are the poeple who CARE enough to actually post, the guild leaders, the raiders, the top PvPers.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jandi

[Holocron]

You're crazy.

 

Nerfing the slot machine did NOT make me lose 6 months worth of MINDLESS grinding. The slot machine ie equatable to resource crates and indestructible item kits in SWG, which both completely devastated crafting cause only the wealthy crafters could buy the crates out and put prices through the roof, the indestructible kits meant that no one had a REASON to buy cheap grind armour.

 

But to say nerfing it is like me losing my DJK.... get the hell out.

 

One thing I have to say though. The thing that the SOE devs understood too late is, that the silent majority? Yeah, they follow the vocal minority cause the vocal minory are the poeple who CARE enough to actually post, the guild leadrs, the raiders, the top PvPers.

 

HAHA I totally forgot about the IDK's. SWG = so much love & hate

[Pagy]

TL;DR (Because I can't comprehension basic English and/or have the attention-span of a gnat): COMMUNICATE AND ADDRESS CUSTOMER ISSUES DON'T DISREGARD PEOPLE AS THE "VOCAL MINORITY"

 

When the NGE hit the Public Test Server there was an OUTRAGE from the Star Wars Galaxies Players (Star Wars Fans) over pretty much the entire game changes that were coming within a few short weeks.

 

Many took to the forums to complain (MANY is an understatement) but what did wind up happening is, one bad post after another by SOE added fuel to the fire. At one point the Community Relations staff called all those that were complaining about the NGE the "Vocal Minority" which added more flames to that already blazing inferno.

 

So, the reaction to those new threads? Banning posting privileges and deleting threads, which, yes, resulted in yet more threads and more anger...

 

The overall end result when the NGE went live... Subscribers left, en mass. The "Vocal Minority" took their money and took to Amazon, and every other online seller and posted 1-star reviews of the game making any chance of new people joining almost impossible...

 

Now, me, as a Star Wars fan, stayed... I was there prior to this game being launched, flying my Advanced X-Wing over the trees of Endor... I will most likely stay with this game until it, too shuts down.

 

BUT, I will point out that something as simple as this Slot Machine case can cause a cascade of bad for all parties... Yes, I'm pissed that it was removed from the game (Look, say what you want, it is not the same item). Non-communication or arrogant communication by BioWare is NOT what is needed here. This issue needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

no one cares about swg, this belongs in the off topic forum

[Mariojediwookie]

TL;DR (Because I can't comprehension basic English and/or have the attention-span of a gnat): COMMUNICATE AND ADDRESS CUSTOMER ISSUES DON'T DISREGARD PEOPLE AS THE "VOCAL MINORITY"

 

When the NGE hit the Public Test Server there was an OUTRAGE from the Star Wars Galaxies Players (Star Wars Fans) over pretty much the entire game changes that were coming within a few short weeks.

 

Many took to the forums to complain (MANY is an understatement) but what did wind up happening is, one bad post after another by SOE added fuel to the fire. At one point the Community Relations staff called all those that were complaining about the NGE the "Vocal Minority" which added more flames to that already blazing inferno.

 

So, the reaction to those new threads? Banning posting privileges and deleting threads, which, yes, resulted in yet more threads and more anger...

 

The overall end result when the NGE went live... Subscribers left, en mass. The "Vocal Minority" took their money and took to Amazon, and every other online seller and posted 1-star reviews of the game making any chance of new people joining almost impossible...

 

Now, me, as a Star Wars fan, stayed... I was there prior to this game being launched, flying my Advanced X-Wing over the trees of Endor... I will most likely stay with this game until it, too shuts down.

 

BUT, I will point out that something as simple as this Slot Machine case can cause a cascade of bad for all parties... Yes, I'm pissed that it was removed from the game (Look, say what you want, it is not the same item). Non-communication or arrogant communication by BioWare is NOT what is needed here. This issue needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed sooner rather than later.

 

I believe the outrage from the NGE in galaxies is they didn't announce ANY of the changes until after people purchased the expansion. It was really wrong of them to not warn people since the game was completely changed with the NGE, I should know I had a fully leveled Jedi (unlocked before they nerfed it) and it was pretty bad. It's nothing compared to a slot machine, I mean come on. The only reason people are so upset is because once you get a taste of the good life, it's soooooo hard to go back.

[Vanisher]

What needs to be done is there should be someone paid to respond to all posts. Someone who knows about what's down the road and someone who can say that's a good idea we will take the time to look over your suggestion. Or actually higher a player to read and post and reply back show that there is community involvement on both sides. Or have someone who has an understanding of the game and filter try the good ideas or the complaints and have someone really address these things a better communication is what's needed.

 

Why do you think social media from a business stand point has taken off its a better form of communication and people like to communicate with their brands.

 

I strongly agree there needs to be more posts by bioware on the forums. Say someone posted a suggestion that look god why not have someone from bioware say ok let's see how popular this is then create a survey via email sent out to tally up votes. And then bioware can create the game for the people rather than create a game that they want. Or what they think the people want. A better two way communication is what's needed. It's like back in the day you had employees and employers and work condition d were horrible that's where the first unions came about. It better facilitated communication between the two parties and work environments improved and employes became more happier. Same idea so to speak we just need better communication so the minority posters don't get to direct the game but the masses do.

[Kourage]

You are the vocal minority and were beaten out by the vocal majority. BioWare also has their own numbers showing price drops in materials that were not intended. 7k credits for Doonium makes Underworld Trading completely useless. You might as well level up 3 straight crafting skills on all of your characters and use slot machines or the GTN for all Mission mats.

 

This is yet one more example of BioWare introducing something without actually putting any real thought & calculations into the impact it would have.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Kourage

[TravelersWay]

And what was the outcry about the NGE about ? It made the game more easy/casual. I think that NGE pretty much was the start of the end of SWG.

 

What is the slot machine doing ? Well, you know it...

 

Ofc one can also argue it had nothing to do with the gameplay, but only with the communication from the devs.

 

SWG was on the decline long before the NGE, that's why the NGE came to be in the first place. Despite what all the fanbois might say, the game was on it's last legs for many years simply because of the fact that it was a poorly designed and maintained game.

 

As for the communication, indeed, it has been the result of many a bad feeling in many a gaming forum. Ironic that they swooped in rather quickly to inform us about the reason for the slot machine's existence, but have thus far remained silent on the overkill nerf that does not match up with what we were told would happen.

[branmakmuffin]

Now, me, as a Star Wars fan [...] I will most likely stay with this game until it, too shuts down.

Then there is no reason for them to be concerned about how you feel, is there?

[Icestar]

BUT, I will point out that something as simple as this Slot Machine case can cause a cascade of bad for all parties...

 

Not in the long run, we already had tradeskill items dropping to almost nothing on the GTN, tons of certificates that made players buy items easy others have spent a fortune to get. I believe it could have seriously damaged the economy in the longrun.

 

I will always believe that the slot "nerf" was a good decision and they did communicate that it would be looked into.

 

I can not see how this is related to NGE at all and I was there all the way.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Icestar

[Jandi]

SWG was on the decline long before the NGE, that's why the NGE came to be in the first place. Despite what all the fanbois might say, the game was on it's last legs for many years simply because of the fact that it was a poorly designed and maintained game.

 

Yet it managed to stay open for years after, even though NGE devastated the playerbase. EQ2 and WoW's launches took a huge toll, yes, but the game was still active enough to sustain itself. After the NGE, ONLY the fanboys were left who would play anything with a SW skin on it.

 

Yes, the engine was inherently broken, just like in another SW MMO (cough) but Smedley even said so himself, NGE was a massive mistake. The game would have been fine if they stuck with it instead of trying to fit a square peg intoa round hole by trying to make a sandbox into a themepark.

[Jandi]

You are the vocal minority and were beaten out by the vocal majority. BioWare also has their own numbers showing price drops in materials that were not intended. 7k credits for Doonium makes Underworld Trading completely useless. You might as well level up 3 straight crafting skills on all of your characters and use slot machines or the GTN to for all Mission mats.

 

This is yet one more example of BioWare introducing something without actually putting any real thought & calculations into the impact it would have.

 

Exactly. And that is exactly why anyone who thought it would last were deluding themselves. Like I said in another thread, I didn't get ripped off by BW because I wasn't dumb enough to waste money on something that would OBVIOUSLY be nerfed sooner rather than later.

[Kalfear]

Originally Posted by TravelersWay View Post

SWG was on the decline long before the NGE, that's why the NGE came to be in the first place. Despite what all the fanbois might say, the game was on it's last legs for many years simply because of the fact that it was a poorly designed and maintained game.

 

Yet it managed to stay open for years after, even though NGE devastated the playerbase. EQ2 and WoW's launches took a huge toll, yes, but the game was still active enough to sustain itself. After the NGE, ONLY the fanboys were left who would play anything with a SW skin on it.

 

Yes, the engine was inherently broken, just like in another SW MMO (cough) but Smedley even said so himself, NGE was a massive mistake. The game would have been fine if they stuck with it instead of trying to fit a square peg intoa round hole by trying to make a sandbox into a themepark.

 

Staying open (because you were contractually obligated to stay open btw) and staying viable financially are two vastly different things.

 

SOE has released the financials.

Its all out there to see if you wanna go do the searches and reading

NGE actually improved their finances over all.

They gave up a small but vocal set of subscribers for a still small but moderately larger set of subscribers after the NGE.

 

NGE did not kill SWG,

in a way it put it back on life support

no matter how much people try to revise history to suit their own agenda.

 

This topic gets so boring, you pick and choose a line here and a saying there and try to promote it as fact (rather then the opinion it is) when there is no need to read into anything when you can read THE FACTS from the source.

 

SWG was bleeding accounts as soon as they opened.

The game never came remotely close to initial projections because of its unseen attrition rate

They tried not once, not twice, not three times, but 4 different time to change the core design of game to stop the bleeding and start retaining enough subs to become financially viable long term (IE Steady projection numbers they could count on) and came up short.

 

Im no fan of the NGE either but it did not kill SWG.

Anyone interested in the real story need only go look up the released financial reports and see it FOR THEMSELVES

 

This whole NGE conspiracy is just nothing more then a vocal minority bitter their personal little sandbox got changed mouthing off for years spin and mistruth in the misguided desire that someone else will be stupid enough to remake a losing concept.

 

Someone did, its called Arch Age and guess what,

its failing already

#whowouldhavethunk

 

There was lessons to learn from SWG but thats mostly what not to do when designing a MMORPG (thats pre NGE btw)

 

NGE didnt kill SWG

SWG was dead long before NGE hit

[comestbest]

after the NGE they lost more than half of their subscribers within a couple months. those are the facts.

 

smedley admitted it was a huge mistake.

Edited January 23, 2015 by comestbest

[Jandi]

Staying open (because you were contractually obligated to stay open btw) and staying viable financially are two vastly different things.

 

SOE has released the financials.

Its all out there to see if you wanna go do the searches and reading

NGE actually improved their finances over all.

They gave up a small but vocal set of subscribers for a still small but moderately larger set of subscribers after the NGE.

 

You're so wrong it goes from comical to sad. The reason they kept aflot was not due to anything NGE did, it was purely due to them firing pretty much EVERYONE in the team up and including CS reps. If you'd actually been there at the time, you would know this. Unless you're serioulsy claiming that all the staff that was fired were lying or some other retarded ****.

 

They had just enough people to keep the lights on and nothing else afterwards. Those financial reports only show what the game made overall, NOT the intake. It's a standard way of lying to people in the business world and saying "were doing great! look at our turnover" after you fire 80% of your staff.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jandi

[TravelersWay]

after the NGE they lost more than half of their subscribers within a couple months. those are the facts.

 

smedley admitted it was a huge mistake.

 

What Smedley admitted was their mistake was not informing the playerbase more in the development of the NGE. He never said launching the NGE was a mistake. In fact, he said that afterwards the game became more stable in terms of playerbase/profit. Therefore, as said before the NGE was the only thing that kept SWG going for as long as it did.

[hadoken]

This slot machine business doesn't change the fundamental way the game played, the way the NGE impacted SWG.

 

And of course that's ignoring the already pointed out fact that the NGE didn't actually cause SWG to close down. The truth is...this game did.

[JuJooGuppy]

Communication with the community about the game they are playing that you hope they will keep playing for years to come? Blasphemy!

 

 

Seriously, though. People on here find the time to read and respond to post all the time. How hard would it be to have someone go through threads even once a week and reply and interact with the player base..? Maybe ASK if the community likes an idea, or likes proposed changes, etc etc... this saves players a headache, and the dev's, since itll be far easier to keep the fanbase happy...

 

 

EDIT: Someone above was mentioning that Doonium had dropped to 7k a unit, which is true... but the slot machine wasnt the initial cause of that, it happend because grade 11's were added to the junk vvendors. THe slot machine made it worse, of course, but only cause it cost 1 junk for 1 doonium... which is really bad. I had almost 300 junk stashed away PRIOR to the slot machine... adding the 11's to the vendors was what started the market crash, the slot machines just further fueled it.

Edited January 26, 2015 by JuJooGuppy

[kirorx]

This slot machine business doesn't change the fundamental way the game played, the way the NGE impacted SWG.

 

And of course that's ignoring the already pointed out fact that the NGE didn't actually cause SWG to close down. The truth is...this game did.

 

This.

 

Alot of people did leave swg after nge, but some us stayed because we liked starwars.

 

For me SWG was different than most because I did not play video

games, I started swg because i was a starwars fan.

I was content with just being able to wonder around tatooine, eventually buy a house and start my own moisture farm.

 

I had no desire to be a jedi, so i was fine with just playing in the starwars galaxy.

It was after the NGE that I decided to try some of the combat classes and started really playing it.

 

I was happy with both games but i prefered SWG because of the freedom and more importantly...the era. After all; as a starwars fan, flying a tie fighter for the empire was alot more entertaining.

 

SWG also had a lot of fan candy and easter eggs...I even hunted a Gormak...(ewok movies)

 

SWG should have never competed with WoW and stayed a game geared toward the fans of the franchise.

 

LA of course cared more about the money and now we have this game that is a direct competitor for WoW, which it also should not be...they have a different type of fanbase. I hate elves....seriously hate them

 

NGE was not this

 

comparing a single item change with a revamp of the entire game is like comparing a Tank to a Hotdog

Edited January 26, 2015 by kirorx