The Stingfire is seriously overpowered!

[Ryuku-sama]

I'm under the impression Bolo has yet to meet a barely decent Scout.

[Ramalina]

@Drakolich: This isn't the only strategy to counter scouts , this is the winning strategy in TDM - a fortress strategy. And thats the problem.

 

Practically all mixes of GS and bombers are countered only by combos of GS and bombers; with exception of bomber majority where CP strikes sometimes have something to say. And, please, don't say that 8 scouts (any tier) > 8 GS, because it just plain isn't true, unless we're talking about voip premades where they have a chance. Few well placed ion shots will render most of the group useless. How good is the allmighty scout without engines? ...

 

And I am still OK with that - if the GS/Bomber tactic happens, I am just hopping into my own GS. Sure, it's less exciting , i become a game of chess - but I can still play it.

 

I just laugh in a face of anyone saying that T2 scout is 'the most OP ship'. If someone likes slaughter of newbs, and 'gg' means a 50:0 win against stationary targets then maybe it is true. In all other games the 'most OP ship' is clearly a gunship.

 

Situational awareness of where the railguns are + smart use of cooldowns + smart use of LOS = ability to get into a bomber ball to score a kill on a GS and get back out again without taking serious damage.

 

So in a worst case hard counter team composition, a scout pilot that knows what they're doing can still be effective, though at a lower rate than in a more scout friendly environment. That's in a situation where it's many enemies vs. one scout.

 

Contrast now with worst case scenarios for other ship classes.

 

Gunship soloing a swarm of scouts?

 

Bomber soloing anything away from heavy cover?

 

Strike solo vs a mix of scouts and gunships?

 

The T1 and T2 scouts are far better at handling the optimal counter-comp team against them than any other ships are at handling their counter-comps, if the pilot knows what they're doing.

 

For gunships to really seriously threaten skilled pilots, either the target has to be constrained to a small area as when defending a sat, or the gunships need to have a localized numerical superiority and appropriate range. If it's three gunships against three scouts, the gunships are going to be neutralized or dead in short order if the scout pilots are competent. If it's three gunships against one scout within range, and two scouts too far away to be a threat, then the gunships probably win. That's a matter of the scout pilot exercising poor judgment though, not a hardware advantage of the gunships.

 

In GSF everything is OP against poor judgment and poor situational awareness, and there's a lot of those to be OP against.

[Verain]

Uh oh, looks like one game happened when no one on the winning team picked a scout this one time when a premade wanted to own some scrubies on the best gunship map. Battlescout class forums to the rescue! Clearly, battle scouts need buffs!

 

Based on the map, it is clearly mad trolling for the lulz while your nubs feed them hard by flying in like the foodships they are. Do you really feel the battle would have gone differently if your team had chosen type 2 bombers and type 1 gunships? Do you really feel that you were on equal footing, team wise? Was 8x flashfire what your clearly organized team was GOING to run, but instead felt they needed to go with some mediocre strikes, and a comet breaker to supplement your double novadive strategy? Man, you guys were JUST THIS CLOSE. Clearly a documented case of CLASS IMBALANCE.

 

 

Get real.

 

They could have flown anything and gotten their results, and likely do on many games.

 

 

 

There are very few games in super serious nights that don't involve moderate to heavy use of battle scouts. I know that a bunch of players like yourself are all about calling for gunship nerfs, and it is my dearest, dearest hope that the devs have the lot of you veritable spammers on ignore.

 

 

Yet, people still say that the Stingfire is the 'most OP ship'...

 

Yea, we say that because it's the highest dps ship, the highest sustained damage ship, the hardest to peel off allies, ties lesser ships for fastest and most maneuverable, has access to all the top components and top secondaries, has the gunship specific burst laser cannon AND the strike iconic quad laser, and basically has to stretch pretty hard to find a poor set of components. Furthermore this is clear dev intent, with access to "supposed-to-be-top-notch" components like quick charge and directional, in addition to "actually-ended-up-amazing" components.

 

So you look at all that, then you post a screenshot where you are up against double premade, and come to the conclusion that class balance is the issue?

 

What could you do? What should you do? Versus that, let me tell you: if there's any ship on your bar that lets you win that ship is godmode so it's great that there isn't. And from THEIR perspective, they have PLENTY of reasons to not want to run a flashfire in a full farm game. Maybe they want to practice for when they fight real opponents. Maybe they want to req those ships. Maybe they like trolling and eating food. Maybe the food gets eaten SO FAST that they can't even GET kills on their flashfire- unlike real pilots, perhaps your teammates flew in so slowly and predictably that everything within 15km just died instantly, so it would be boring to even be on a flashfire- why run something that can peel when no one needs peels, why run something that can intercept when your opponents don't need to be intercepted?

 

 

 

 

 

How good will be your bloated stats if nearly no one will be playing?...

 

STOP IT. You don't get to hold queues hostage.

 

1)- It's a pvp game. It's not our job to be nice to the enemy. It's our job to kill them. Players aren't responsible for the success of GSF, the devs are.

Special Note: Drako came in here to discuss this with you, and he goes through GREAT effort to get new players, train them. He has tutorial videos and does 1 on 1 tutoring, goes to all servers and flies with everyone. He ACTUALLY IS helping the community. Stop whining that some players play ships you don't understand, some of the time. It's ludicrous.

 

2)- You don't hold queues hostage. The game wouldn't have more players if only something something game balance. For every noisy nerf herder there's a bunch of players who like the game the way it is. Matchmaking issues plague all of SWTOR, and the lack of cross server or mega server is a huge detriment. But you don't hold queues hostage. Think about why GSF has all the players it does, versus all the failed games. Now think why it doesn't have as many players as some really successful game. How close do you think you are?

How can you tell? If you are that wise and smart, you should go into the stock market and double your money THIS VERY WEEK. You'll be a billionare in half a year. Then I'll listen to your sage advice about the population of GSF, and how the devs need to nerf whatever kills you, and how the aces need to stop queuing, because only if the most passionate players quit will the scrubs who don't understand spacial orientation or boosters play twenty games instead of fifteen and that's what GSF needs.

 

 

 

How about if were going to talk about team strategies (Like the dreaded Bomber/Gunship setup) everyone stops talking about the 1 ship they want to use to counter it.

 

Drako has been super polite in this thread, but if you get nothing else out of it, take this away from it. This line, right here.

 

this is the winning strategy in TDM - a fortress strategy.

 

If you watch the super serious nights, you don't see a "fortress strategy" as the normal event. You normally see a reasonable mix of ships fighting. If somone went all in on gunships there's a lot of foils to that. You think you're the only pilot who has seen a bomberball? You think this is new, and no one has talked about it before? Drako has told you what, in general, you would want to use to counter their team work.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Verain

[TheGreatSatan]

Today in a pug vs. pug match on The Bastion, the republic side went mostly bombers/gunships at the start. Imp side almost universally switched to gunships. It was a shooting gallery after that. At one point I'd hear railgun shots about every 1/5th of a second.

 

PEW.

PEW.

PEW.

PEW.

PEW.

 

And people dying everywhere. It was so cute.

 

Oh, they switched to scouts and strikes after enough dying in the bombers, sure enough. T'wasn't enough, though, no sir. The steady drumbeat of half a dozen railguns continued as did the soft symphony of exploding starfighters.

Edited January 20, 2015 by TheGreatSatan

[Asbetos]

Wow Urt, I really didn't expect this kind of whining from you...

 

 

for maybe 6 seconds in 1 minute (concentrated fire). Even in a GS i am pretty much able to run away from a scout. If I get first shot with ion rail, well... sitting duck.

 

TT which you can have up 50% of the time doesn't count here? Let me refresh your memory... Accuracy +10%, enemy Evasion -5% (with T4 left), Critical Chance +15%, Critical Magnitude +25% (with T5 left) AND it applies to both primaries and secondaries.

 

 

Time from first damage to kill - GS against scout ... 16% 0 seconds (1 shot), full charge and a small charge (about 1,5 seconds ) without crit. Time to kill with ion rail? Who cares, after first hit the scout can power dive once... ir just wait helplessly.

 

Chance to even hit an evasion scout with a slug at 10K?

103-28=79% and that's only if the shot is dead-on. If you let that happen, well...

pop DF: 103-(28+27)=a WHOOPING 48%

With all that and the amazing maneuverability of the cattlescout, it's really YOUR problem if you get hit by a railgun.

 

 

And then GS BR away... while another GS lands an ion rail hit...

 

It's a 2v1 battle, what do you expect? Even in that case, it's not much of a problem to keep them both entertained as long as you know how to use your CDs and fly.

 

 

The problem is that the only good counters for GS with bombers are... GS and bombers. the 'OPed' scouts won't do anything much against a bomber nest or GS wall.

 

As people already told you, that composition is a counter for scouts. Even then, there is a rather simple solution to it, but you have to work as a team (like the enemy is obviously doing): you can either sacrifice a scout or 2 to clear the minefield and the rest moves in and wipes the floor with the GSs and bombers OR you can have a scout with EMP field (weren't you the 1 usually screaming about how people never heard of it?) and the rest moves in and cleans up.

 

 

And scouts do more damage? Sure, in 'newbie game, stats farming' maybe. In a game on average and higher level the GS can do more hull damage than scout can dream of (assuming the same skill levels).

 

In a game "on average and higher levels" the GS can't sit around and shoot, it can get a shot or 2 off every now and then.

 

 

Pressing Tab (and as a GS you can fire without having target selected, so you can do this without losing your firepower) will reveal enemy ship closing, Can you do it on 'OPed' scout?... good luck.

 

No, your target will be dead before you even need to check.

 

 

Well, from my experience it is quite the contrary - most of the matches I fly GS, I have much higher damage and kill counts. I don't do complicated match to count my chance, I fly. Or stay in place and charge rail.

 

Please do try that the next time you're up against me. Last GS that I focused hard (on the Sting, mind you) ended up with double digit deaths, and he's a pretty good GS that actually runs when he has a scout within 3K.

 

 

So don't talk anymore about 'OPed' scouts becuse I will only laugh at you then...

 

You 1 laugh at all of us while all of us laugh at you. Fine by me.

 

 

Assuming the same skill lvel, those OP scouts are losing to all GS/bomber combos or pure GS/pure bomber teams.

 

As said earlier, that is a counter to scouts, but it can be beaten even with scouts only. Hardly, but not impossible while 8 strikers can do... what exactly against 8 cattlescouts?

[Danalon]

Gunships and Bombers are made for teamplay, scouts are made for (most) 1v1 situations. Does it need to be balanced? We don't know because there are almost no matches with 8 equally skilled and geared pilots on each side.

 

The "unfairness" or "overpoweredness" is mostly percieved in specific situations.

No one likes being killed without being able to strike back - be it by a scout with damage cooldown or by a railgun shot.

 

As far as I can analyse this game from a screenshot: Well geared pilots used their gear to win the match (seriously that lineup is almost an i-win-button in this case and also this is one of the situations where gear mattered a lot) and the losing team probably felt helpless because they couldn't counter it which probably made it a very unpleasant game for them. Would the "red" team have won if they would have used another lineup? Very likely. Would it have been less displeasing for the losing team if they wouldn't have been so helpless? Probably.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Danalon

[ALaggyGrunt]

The counter to that setup is teamwork.

 

If you have to solo it, run a GS of your own. If the GS overextend chasing your teammates, you can pick them off. If you're good, you can kill a few of them before they realize they need to point everything they have at you when they get the chance, but you probably won't win the match doing that.

 

8 scouts vs. 8 GS depends on the level of coordination of the scouts. If the scouts all attack at once and with good technique, there is no covering fire from the other GS. If the scouts attack in twos and threes, the gunships can put up lots of covering fire while their friends evade. I see this happen a lot when GS-heavy teams get pushed back to their spawns: a few fighters die and suddenly there isn't a full team to keep pressure on the GS.

Edited January 20, 2015 by ALaggyGrunt

[Bolo_Yeung]

I honestly don't know what game you are playing if you don't think 8 evasion Scouts wouldn't beat 8 Gunships. The Gunships would get destroyed, it wouldn't even be close.

 

So laugh away but I'm done arguing with you.

 

Well, imagine this situation.

Ok... assume 4 gunships in semicircle, 4 behind first. ones, in a distance about 8-9 clicks from each.

 

Now, the 8 scouts attack . Before they can get into firing range of first line they bhave no info on second, so they have 4 in sensors (the 2nd circle of GS know where the scouts are due to communication) The scouts attack in coordination, assume 2 per one GS on first line.

 

Frst line respond with ion rails (or slugs in case of T3 GS) - they elimitate, assume, 2 scouts for a moment. Then they either turn around or boost a little and turn around, pop DF and retreat. About that time, the 2nd line pops on sensors of the scouts (and with dampening, most probably they are within range of the rails of 2nd line).

Since some of the scouts got ion rail already, there are maybe 5-6 scouts against 4 GS close (and evading) and 4GS a lttle away (and firing rails). Again, some ion hits will land (DF wears off, RI has 15 sec duration against 20sec Wingman...). Some scouts are grounded, possibly killed. And without the engines it is ard to run after a BRing gunship. Some scouts will get a lucky engine overcharge and give trouble... but how much? 2 in good circumstances.

If the GS pilots are paying attention to the map, they can spot scouts trying to flank and regroup.

 

The scouts can win, but it demands much more coordination from scout group than gunship group. So yes - unless it is a voip double premade, in an 'average' and above skill level match, 8XGS beat 8Xscout.

 

Sure, one above average scout pilot can give a hell to 2-3 GS below average (that happens often, because much beginning people choose GS for more lethality, thus average GS pilot will have less skill than average T2 scout pilot), but we're talking about equal skill level.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[MiaowZedong]

Well, imagine this situation.

The scouts can win, but it demands much more coordination from scout group than gunship group. So yes - unless it is a voip double premade, in an 'average' and above skill level match, 8XGS beat 8Xscout.

Except that is exactly the reverse of the tactics you described. You described an extremely coordinated GS group, on voice, farming a scout zerg. And even then...

 

Frst line respond with ion rails (or slugs in case of T3 GS) - they elimitate, assume, 2 scouts for a moment.

 

Either your gunship pilots have aimbots and hacked the server to ignore evasion, or this is pure fantasy. Consider that last night Aimbot and I had a go at each other, and our opening two railshots each both missed. That's gunship versus gunship, we have far less evasion than scouts, and were shooting perfectly centered at mostly immobile (strafing) targets. But in your little fantasy world, apparently gunships never miss so four GS can take out two scouts with a single volley.

Edited January 20, 2015 by MiaowZedong

[tommmsunb]

Guys you're currently trying to tell the 2nd grader how 5th grade math works from a 7th grade position. I'd recommend just stopping at this point, he'll learn one of these days. As for scouts coordinating, there's very few things that really need coordination to deal with the bomber ball.

[Ryuku-sama]

Guys you're currently trying to tell the 2nd grader how 5th grade math works from a 7th grade position. I'd recommend just stopping at this point, he'll learn one of these days. As for scouts coordinating, there's very few things that really need coordination to deal with the bomber ball.

 

This. So accurate.

[Asbetos]

Then they either turn around or boost a little and turn around, pop DF and retreat....Again, some ion hits will land (DF wears off, RI has 15 sec duration against 20sec Wingman...)....

 

What?! No, you don't pop DF after the GSs start shooting, you pop both DF and RI as soon as the GSs start charging if you can notice it, if not you pop it as soon as you're in range. That gives you 75% evasion for 6sec and 48% for another 14sec (RI is 20sec according to Dulfy, don't remember if it's correct by heart). With your afterburner speed of 2496 m/s, you can very easily cover the 23-24K range to the 2nd line of GSs (will take you 9.61sec). When you've closed in, you practically win because if each GS out-maneuvers and kills 2 scouts, the scouts have a serious problem.

 

The scouts can win, but it demands much more coordination from scout group than gunship group. So yes - unless it is a voip double premade, in an 'average' and above skill level match, 8XGS beat 8Xscout.

 

No.

 

Sure, one above average scout pilot can give a hell to 2-3 GS below average (that happens often, because much beginning people choose GS for more lethality, thus average GS pilot will have less skill than average T2 scout pilot), but we're talking about equal skill level.

 

GS gives more lethality against newbs and noobs, a good pilot won't get killed as easily.

 

Either your gunship pilots have aimbots and hacked the server to ignore evasion, or this is pure fantasy. Consider that last night Aimbot and I had a go at each other, and our opening two railshots each both missed. That's gunship versus gunship, we have far less evasion than scouts, and were shooting perfectly centered at mostly immobile (strafing) targets. But in your little fantasy world, apparently gunships never miss so four GS can take out two scouts with a single volley.

 

This! SO much this!

[Bolo_Yeung]

What?! No, you don't pop DF after the GSs start shooting, you pop both DF and RI as soon as the GSs start charging if you can notice it, if not you pop it as soon as you're in range. That gives you 75% evasion for 6sec and 48% for another 14sec (RI is 20sec according to Dulfy, don't remember if it's correct by heart). With your afterburner speed of 2496 m/s, you can very easily cover the 23-24K range to the 2nd line of GSs (will take you 9.61sec). When you've closed in, you practically win because if each GS out-maneuvers and kills 2 scouts, the scouts have a serious problem.

 

RI = 15 seconds, not 20. After DF ends (assume you have a GS-killer build with 9 sec duration) you are near second line of GS. However, you don't know exactly where to go until you reach close to 1st line.

TT can help as well (both with localization and with evasion) but... what then? Assume the scout group splitted 4-4 (4 on front line GS, 4 on back line 1 scout on 1 gunship). The second line ignore the charging scouts for a while, attacking the ones that slowed down to attack first (while the first pops own DF and evades in direction of second line). As soon as the econd scout group reaches second GS line, 2nd GS group begin evasion (popping own DF as well). Now, when a scout is chasing GS in BLC range, a sudden rclick and GS stop will oftenm put the scout in front of GS. that gives GS of the first line a while to land an ion rail shots at the second scout group; since the 2nd scout group burned most of their engines already, charging for 20+ clicks... they will be left with no engines, while both GS groups have >50%...

Some GS will fall, of course, but scouts will have more causalties.

 

GS gives more lethality against newbs and noobs, a good pilot won't get killed as easily.

 

GS in newb hand (with some basic advices like what Wingman is for) is far better better than the scout in newb hands. Thats why GS is easier to play for someone new.

[Ryuku-sama]

Eh??? Barrel Roll will get a scout from your first line to your second line in 3s. Power Dive will do it in about 4s.

Quad'n'Pods optimal range is 5km with TT up. Chasing at 5km is easy.... Really easy.

 

GS in newb hand (with some basic advices like what Wingman is for) is far better better than the scout in newb hands. Thats why GS is easier to play for someone new.

 

No. Scoring kill with GS is easier for a newbie... But GS or scout, a newbie will get destroyed against an experianced pilot. GS newbies don't know how to avoid a *********** Quell coming straight at them and locking Conc on them following up by cluster spam while lighting them up with HLC.. And Quell is arguably the easiest ship to kill/outrun for a GS.

Scoring a kill on a strike with red hull who already killed half your team isn't an exploit. Try to do the same on the evasion scout. Scoring a kill against a distracted target with 3-4 people on him in GS isn't an exploit. It's easy.

Getting kills in a GS is easier for newbies. Surviving is the same as in any ship.. Maybe even harder.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Ryuku-sama

[Asbetos]

RI = 15 seconds, not 20. After DF ends (assume you have a GS-killer build with 9 sec duration) you are near second line of GS. However, you don't know exactly where to go until you reach close to 1st line.

 

Irrelevant, you have enough engine power to change direction.

 

TT can help as well (both with localization and with evasion) but... what then? Assume the scout group splitted 4-4 (4 on front line GS, 4 on back line 1 scout on 1 gunship). The second line ignore the charging scouts for a while, attacking the ones that slowed down to attack first (while the first pops own DF and evades in direction of second line).

 

The faster scouts go for the 2nd line. They're practically untouchable if they have their evasion CDs up and are flying evasively/using cover.

 

As soon as the econd scout group reaches second GS line, 2nd GS group begin evasion (popping own DF as well).

 

At that point, ALL the GSs already have their 2 scouts well within 3K and are dead if they don't run ASAP.

 

Now, when a scout is chasing GS in BLC range, a sudden rclick and GS stop will oftenm put the scout in front of GS.

 

Not once in my ~1K games on the Stingfire have I been killed like that. Scouts should have Retros for that case (if they have BR, the whole engine and time spending on closing the distance is moot).

 

GS in newb hand (with some basic advices like what Wingman is for) is far better better than the scout in newb hands. Thats why GS is easier to play for someone new.

 

Yes, possibly, but I thought we were discussing high-end play...

[Zoom_VI]

I'm still concerned that we are calling these things "Stingfire." Battle Scout was such a superior naming convention.

[Asbetos]

I'm still concerned that we are calling these things "Stingfire." Battle Scout was such a superior naming convention.

 

Personally, I preffer cattlescout

[Bolo_Yeung]

Irrelevant, you have enough engine power to change direction.

How much power will they have then? Because GS will have full engine bar. If they BR away, what will scouts do? their engines energy is a little depleted...

The faster scouts go for the 2nd line. They're practically untouchable if they have their evasion CDs up and are flying evasively/using cover.

If they popped their CD within 13-12clicks before first line, their 9s DF will wear off as they reach second line. RI - 6 sec later - uless they can fly close to each other and share RI (3 clicks radius isn't as large as it looks)... Second line will evade while first line turn around and give them friendly taps... no, leaving the first line unattended is even worse for scout group.

 

At that point, ALL the GSs already have their 2 scouts well within 3K and are dead if they don't run ASAP.

Since we have 2 lines, 2 scout per GS mean that 4 GS will be unattended. You, of all people should know what unattended GS can do

Not once in my ~1K games on the Stingfire have I been killed like that. Scouts should have Retros for that case (if they have BR, the whole engine and time spending on closing the distance is moot).

Because the GS won' attack *you* (every scout pilot with skill will change direction immediately in that situation) - but this gives the GS a chance to score a quick rail tap on other enemyin 10k range... before you can get into attack position, GS have 2-2.5 sec to shoot - about half charge of the rail).

If you use retros, the GS does not shot, instead getting out of soom mode and continuing evasion.

 

Yes, possibly, but I thought we were discussing high-end play...

Yes, but I was explaining why GS pilots are typically less experienced. than scout pilots - with GS you can score chance kills earlier than in scout

[tunewalker]

Because I see a REALLY big flaw here. Both Wingman and Running Interference last 20 seconds... the DIFFERENCE is the amount of evasion vs Accuracy they give. RI only gives 15% Evasion, Wingman 20% Accuracy. That's the 15: 20 Ratio that you see, NOT the duration. Thank you.

 

 

Edited to make more sense.

Edited January 21, 2015 by tunewalker

[Asbetos]

How much power will they have then? Because GS will have full engine bar. If they BR away, what will scouts do? their engines energy is a little depleted...

 

So? They still don't have enough time to do anything meaningful before the scout catches up with them

 

Second line will evade while first line turn around and give them friendly taps... no, leaving the first line unattended is even worse for scout group.

 

As I said, ALL the GSs have scouts on them.

 

Since we have 2 lines, 2 scout per GS mean that 4 GS will be unattended. You, of all people should know what unattended GS can do

 

Didn't you say 8 scouts v 4 GS? If they have equal numbers, 1 scout per GS and the GSs are either useless or dead.

 

Because the GS won' attack *you* (every scout pilot with skill will change direction immediately in that situation) - but this gives the GS a chance to score a quick rail tap on other enemyin 10k range... before you can get into attack position, GS have 2-2.5 sec to shoot - about half charge of the rail).

If you use retros, the GS does not shot, instead getting out of soom mode and continuing evasion.

 

As I said earlier, for this comparison only Retros are viable. With them, the GS doesn't have time to charge even the minimum required to shoot before the scout is in attack position. Continue evasion? Good, they're staying useless.

 

Yes, but I was explaining why GS pilots are typically less experienced. than scout pilots - with GS you can score chance kills earlier than in scout

 

Let's put a stop to this line right here since we're discussing high-end play.

 

Because I see a REALLY big flaw here. Both Wingman and Running Interference last 20 seconds... the DIFFERENCE is the amount of evasion vs Accuracy they give. RI only gives 15% Evasion, Wingman 20% evasion. That's the 15: 20 Ratio that you see, NOT the duration. Thank you.

 

Thank you!

[Bolo_Yeung]

So? They still don't have enough time to do anything meaningful before the scout catches up with them

They will boost/BR away. Scouts will run out of juice and then GS will have a safe distance. Unless you know how to cripple GS with scout.

 

As I said, ALL the GSs have scouts on them.

Some got ion hits and aren't able to do much... so some GS are free. WIth each second free GS will cripple the rest of the scouts.

 

Didn't you say 8 scouts v 4 GS? If they have equal numbers, 1 scout per GS and the GSs are either useless or dead.

I understood that all went second line, Ok, so in this scenario we assume that 4 scouts engage first line while other 4 ignore and go straight to second line? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

As I said earlier, for this comparison only Retros are viable. With them, the GS doesn't have time to charge even the minimum required to shoot before the scout is in attack position. Continue evasion? Good, they're staying useless.

If scout retroes, GS boost again then stops again. The scout will either boost behing GS asap (thus being vulnerable to another sudden stop before CD of retros), or to move at a greater distance (that render him a little useless.

Also, the second response on retro can with GS can be popping DFand still firing - Assuming full shields it still give a good chance to shoot rail (not full charge ofc), without getting much damage in the process. Bad choice against pods, but against clusters it will do.

With T3 GS it can put a retro against retro as well...

Let's put a stop to this line right here since we're discussing high-end play.

 

I was explaining why peple can have an impression that scouts are better than gunships - since more GS pilots are inexperienced, they are easy kills. But in high level play it isn't as pretty.

Sure, 1v1 with both sides aware of the enemy, scout will win. 8v8 is quite different.

 

Also, consider the amount of coordination needed to do a succesfull attack and needed for the GS to defense . As I said earlier - with 2 voip premades, scouts have a good chance, I'd say 70-30 for scouts. However, most of the games are not voip premades...

 

Thank you!

Thank you too

 

Now back to gambling before nerf

Edited January 21, 2015 by Bolo_Yeung

[Asbetos]

...

 

Forget it, you're ignoring everything I say and stubbornly try to push your argument which has been proven wrong by numerous people here both with math and experience.

 

Thank you too

 

That was meant for tune

 

Now back to gambling before nerf

 

HF

[Bolo_Yeung]

Forget it, you're ignoring everything I say and stubbornly try to push your argument which has been proven wrong by numerous people here both with math and experience.

/QUOTE]

 

Typical... someone who can't reply will tell 'nah, you're just wrong and thats truth', I am not discussing.

And I do not see anyone who has 'proven' me I am wrong, just people were telling 'you will not hit full evasion battlescout' etc.

 

But, please - tell me one thing. In a TDM game where all players have 5 ships (so assume they are above 'novice' level already...), how much teams will play 50%+ GS and how much - 50%+ Stingfires?

...And why?

(one reason I posted above but is it all)?

 

To conclude my opinion.

 

On equal skill levels and mastered ship, 8 + Scouts will be beaten by most (or any) combination of GS+bombers, except maybe T1 bombers, with the exception of coordinated premade. In most games, scouts will just die.

[Asbetos]

And I do not see anyone who has 'proven' me I am wrong, just people were telling 'you will not hit full evasion battlescout' etc.

 

YES! That is the whole point of the damned evasion scout! You don't like that? Fine, take Directionals, Large Reactor and Reinforced Armor, that brings your shields to 1820 and hull to 1100 so you can survive it

 

But, please - tell me one thing. In a TDM game where all players have 5 ships (so assume they are above 'novice' level already...), how much teams will play 50%+ GS and how much - 50%+ Stingfires?

...And why?

(one reason I posted above but is it all)?

 

Yes, and those GSs turn into the floor mop, while those teams that take cattlescouts either mop the floor with the other team or are countered by bombers.

 

 

Hmmm didn't I say I'm done here? Meh... now I definitely am.

[Bolo_Yeung]

YES! That is the whole point of the damned evasion scout! You don't like that? Fine, take Directionals, Large Reactor and Reinforced Armor, that brings your shields to 1820 and hull to 1100 so you can survive it

I was just saying that you *can* hit even the full evasion scout it is just more difficult... but in 'scouts vs GS' scenario ion rail hit means disabling it from the match and becoming a (slow) moving target (with the exception of powerdive....but even then it is just 3 second delay).

And no need to shout, it really does not make you more convicing

 

 

Yes, and those GSs turn into the floor mop, while those teams that take cattlescouts either mop the floor with the other team or are countered by bombers.

 

But why there aren't as much 'scout teams' as GS teams? Since the scout is the 'most OP ship'?...

 

 

Hmmm didn't I say I'm done here? Meh... now I definitely am.

Remind me of people who insult by /whisper then quickly put on ignore ...