Infernixx Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Time is relevant. The guy walked past it for 5 freaking weeks without once mentioning it. If he doesn't care after 5 weeks, why should I? Exactly this. BW has shown a well-documented pattern of not caring about exploiters. Or not caring enough to do anything about them other than fix the exploits. Both PVP and PVE. So, if BW doesn't care, then why should we? And if BW suddenly decides to care, are we supposed to read their minds and just 'know' that the Ravagers things is srs bsn and exploiting is a terrible thing all of a sudden? You can't ignore a problem for months and months and then suddenly decide not to ignore it anymore and get mad at people for noticing and reacting to your previous attitude of don't-care-about-exploits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GopherLuV Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 A 20% hit to gross income, is a serious, serious hit... may not seem like a lot to some... But if a company takes a 20% hit to their income that could very well be far over their entire profit margin... A game like this has costs and I have no way of knowing but, from experience.. a 5-10% hit on gross would mean zero profit... possibly even falling into negative, meaning they would be spending money in order to keep the game alive (ie server costs, employee wages/benefits etc etc) Now, I may be completely wrong and perhaps bioware/EA is running on 50%+ profit margins but.. again from experience, they aren't.. a 1-5% hit could potentially be enough to put a lid on the game.. a 10-20% reduction in subs and all the CCs made from that 10-20% could very, very easily be enough to cause EA to shut down a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosonman Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) **** lol. People are so dense. I intentionally changed the example to make it 100x more extreme than the usual version. Not only does the chick get naked first, but she knows there are drunk prisoners in the alley but she walks down it anyway. I'm sorry I forgot I cant try to be clever or sarcastic on here and I must keep my posts simple and short. Here's a better analogy that in no way resembles any other commonly used analogies: If I were to leave a bowl of money on my front porch and sit in my window blatantly watching as people came up and took some whilst doing or saying nothing, in a month the whole county would be stopping by on a daily basis whether it was technically illegal or not. Would you blame them? Or would you blame me for not saying "Hey please don't take my bowl of money!"? Or would you blame me for not ceasing my daily refilling of the bowl? Again your analogy falls short of reality and displays a shockly low degree of moral integrity. First a better analogy would be one where guests or customers are allowed into a theme park, but before they are allowed they sign an agreement that says "now one mustn't ride on any broken rides, you hear?".. "yesm you reply". Well sure enough one of the rides is broken while some of us clearly remember the agreement that we signed others are frolicking along on the ride with no cares in the world except for their own meriment and enjoyment. That is until the park operator comes back with a bitter look on his face still holding the TOS those poor souls had signed but not moments earlier... Edited January 13, 2015 by chosonman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Believe me, there ARE NOT that many people who raid or pvp compared to Joe Goober who runs in and plays but doesn't do much else. And this is every single server in the game. If you have hard core numbers, feel free to correct me. And also as you can see, I was speculating, I never once said my numbers were accurate. I have no hard numbers, but I am not speculating. What you did is like when the media says "Now I am just speculating here, but I think that tornado killed TEN MILLION PEOPLE" when in reality they have no idea, neither do you so do not pretend come to an informed conclusion via speculation. You just look childish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'll be here! Anyone looking for someone to run PvE with... look me up. Sorry, your gear isn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTap Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Where are you guys getting these numbers from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I feel like it would be some stupid legal clause like "and it was reasonable to notify them they misplaced it". What if it was Manhattan and they were three blocks away? But you may be right, idk about what states/municipalities have that law. It's more that you need to make sufficient "reasonable efforts" under the circumstances to identify who lost it and return it to them before you are legally allowed to take ownership of the property (so yes if you thought you had caught sight of who dropped it, then jogging three blocks and trying to catch up to them would generally be something you're required to do, all things being equal - good luck proving that fact pattern in court). But yeah, that's pretty off-topic at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangrar Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Exactly this. BW has shown a well-documented pattern of not caring about exploiters. Or not caring enough to do anything about them other than fix the exploits. Both PVP and PVE. So, if BW doesn't care, then why should we? And if BW suddenly decides to care, are we supposed to read their minds and just 'know' that the Ravagers things is srs bsn and exploiting is a terrible thing all of a sudden? You can't ignore a problem for months and months and then suddenly decide not to ignore it anymore and get mad at people for noticing and reacting to your previous attitude of don't-care-about-exploits. part of the problem was the holidays, most of them were on vacation so that ought to have delayed stuff, and I think by that point they kept silent because if they did open up about an exploit all of a sudden a lot more people would have started doing it. Could have been handled a lot better, but still, it is a tough situation especially when you might not have an estimate on how long until its fixed. Edited January 13, 2015 by Sangrar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eanelinea Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I have no hard numbers, but I am not speculating. What you did is like when the media says "Now I am just speculating here, but I think that tornado killed TEN MILLION PEOPLE" when in reality they have no idea, neither do you so do not pretend come to an informed conclusion via speculation. You just look childish. See, I don't really care either way if Bioware bans people or doesn't. I didn't do the exploit and neither should have any who did. Trying to justify it and say 'oh well don't do anything, let them get away with it' is worse than doing it yourself. I never understood the reasoning behind why people think doing something against the rules is okay since they didn't get punished the first time or the item wasn't good to begin with. If you went to McD to get a hamburger and asked for it a certain way, but they gave you a normal one by mistake, are you going to ask nicely for a redo or toss the burger in their face? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Where are you guys getting these numbers from? This is what happens when people pull numbers out of the sky (which is what happened). One person said 20% and everyone else ran with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) See, I don't really care either way if Bioware bans people or doesn't. I didn't do the exploit and neither should have any who did. Trying to justify it and say 'oh well don't do anything, let them get away with it' is worse than doing it yourself. I never understood the reasoning behind why people think doing something against the rules is okay since they didn't get punished the first time or the item wasn't good to begin with. If you went to McD to get a hamburger and asked for it a certain way, but they gave you a normal one by mistake, are you going to ask nicely for a redo or toss the burger in their face? The funny thing is I dont care either. I used the exploit on sm a few times, if they want to ban me at this point I wont be too broken up about it. You're analogy is also broken. It would be like someone going to McDs every day for three years and always getting the wrong burger, but doing nothing about it until one day they throw it in your face and complain that you have been giving them the wrong burger for the past three years. That and McDs is paying them to eat it...I guess. Ha, not a perfect analogy. Edited January 13, 2015 by AAAAAAJKKRRYZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kussadjustin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Quote: Originally Posted by -Damask- View Post **** lol. People are so dense. I intentionally changed the example to make it 100x more extreme than the usual version. Not only does the chick get naked first, but she knows there are drunk prisoners in the alley but she walks down it anyway. I'm sorry I forgot I cant try to be clever or sarcastic on here and I must keep my posts simple and short. Here's a better analogy that in no way resembles any other commonly used analogies: If I were to leave a bowl of money on my front porch and sit in my window blatantly watching as people came up and took some whilst doing or saying nothing, in a month the whole county would be stopping by on a daily basis whether it was technically illegal or not. Would you blame them? Or would you blame me for not saying "Hey please don't take my bowl of money!"? Or would you blame me for not ceasing my daily refilling of the bowl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eanelinea Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Where are you guys getting these numbers from? Meh I pulled numbers out of my *** as an example. But I'm probably right to some extent. I've played MMOs for a loooooong time. Trust me, there aren't that many people who do certain things in the game compared to what they would like others to think. Besides, Bioware knows exactly how many people do what with their time to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzraFett Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Please let me drown in the tears of banned exploiters. please, please, stop being so lenient like you've been in the last 3 years. LOL I'm with you Alec Bring on the tears! Show them that exploiters will get smacked! Please "Oh, the tears of unfathomable sadness! Ummm yummy, yummy guys!", Eric Cartman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Again someone is confusing cheating with taking advantage. What about these pieces of **** who post crafting mats for 38987333 credits and trick people into buying them because of biowares failure to fix the broken gtn sort feature? People think they are buying the cheapest mat but really they are buying the most expensive and it looks the same at a glance because of (once again) biowares failure to display prices clearly? When a victim puts in a ticket, bioware has said they will not refund the millions of credits stolen by these scammers. By doing that they are clearly saying that "exploiting" the bugs in the gtn is an acceptable practice, and that it is the player's fault for not looking more closely at the single 6pt font size digit after the decimal point. How can they turn around and say this is an exploit, but stealing 10, 20, 30 MILLION or more credits from a player per successful gtn sale is not? ^This It's so inconsistent.... one exploit is fine, hell practically endorsed in the above example, another is horribly evil... There are hundreds of examples... I don't blame people for taking advantage of something they leave in the game for weeks. I blame bio-ware for having a history of doing fk all about exploits and people abusing them constantly with out punishment... So the mass population finally says fuk it I might as well get my piece of the pie and now they are all oh well we don't tolerate that... yes you do... you are currently tolerating exploits, you will after this and you will do nothing about the majority of them. So I guess the moral is, go ahead - cheat - as long as not too many cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drockter Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 As much as I am on the exploiters deserve the consequences... I believe this... IMO, the most egregious exploiters should be banned. Then scale back from there... all gear obtained this way should be deleted, schematics removed, credits revoked (even if this takes the player into the negative) with varying lengths of suspensions for all that remain. I'd be careful just using association as a means of determining guilt (this is to the forum users, BW has its own proof). Because members of a guild may have been involved... don't automatically assume every member of that guild exploited. One final point... to those claiming BW's history of bans... please google search SWTOR Bans. They most certainly have a precedent that exploits are reviewed, and actions taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 The big difference is that people who claim they don't cheat have had enough of this and made their disdain heard. Fixed it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Quote: Originally Posted by -Damask- View Post **** lol. People are so dense. I intentionally changed the example to make it 100x more extreme than the usual version. Not only does the chick get naked first, but she knows there are drunk prisoners in the alley but she walks down it anyway. I'm sorry I forgot I cant try to be clever or sarcastic on here and I must keep my posts simple and short. Here's a better analogy that in no way resembles any other commonly used analogies: If I were to leave a bowl of money on my front porch and sit in my window blatantly watching as people came up and took some whilst doing or saying nothing, in a month the whole county would be stopping by on a daily basis whether it was technically illegal or not. Would you blame them? Or would you blame me for not saying "Hey please don't take my bowl of money!"? Or would you blame me for not ceasing my daily refilling of the bowl? These analogies crack me up. They always have one small but glaring error in them..."If I say nothing". Not only did EA/BW say something, you agreed to it before you could even play the game. That is why your and every other false premise analogy on this thread fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 part of the problem was the holidays, most of them were on vacation so that ought to have delayed stuff, and I think by that point they kept silent because if they did open up about an exploit all of a sudden a lot more people would have started doing it. Could have been handled a lot better, but still, it is a tough situation especially when you might not have an estimate on how long until its fixed. Nah...don't buy it. During the holidays they were able to advertise their cartel pack du jour without issue...all it would have taken was ONE post about it - just a strongly worded warning. Instead...nothing. If it was so HUGE that they're willing to ban customers over it, it should have been hotfixed...(remove loot and let players contact CS)...but they did nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GopherLuV Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yea, ran with 20%.. but also said even if it was only 1-5% of the player base that did it, it's still a huge hit to profits.. and seriously let's be honest... EA/Bioware are corporations here for one thing.. TO MAKE MONEY! Yes they want a good product and especially the devs they staff want a good product, but in the end, if the game (pulling # out of thin air so ignore if you'de like..) took in 5-10% less profit, they would ask why, see why, and if it's to big of a hit, shut the game down.. this won't happen.. because the game is still cost effective, they can still make money.. when they can't make money they shut it down.. all i'm saying is whether it's 1% bans or 20% bans, it's a hit to profits... and depending on how high of a margin this game runs on (again out of experience it's probably not high... 5-15% is my guess..) could be enough for them to shut the game down... You wouldn't keep selling lemonade at your lemonade stand if you only made 1$ a month off it because you told the 10% of people you don't like they can't buy you lemonade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoop Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You're not safe. NOBODY IS! Judgement day is coming for all. the end times are upon us i can honestly say i've had more fun reading the forums the last week than running the lagged out uber buggy new ops, there's something wrong with that IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuriDogshin Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 So, if BW doesn't care, then why should we? And if BW suddenly decides to care, are we supposed to read their minds and just 'know' that the Ravagers things is srs bsn and exploiting is a terrible thing all of a sudden? You can't ignore a problem for months and months and then suddenly decide not to ignore it anymore and get mad at people for noticing and reacting to your previous attitude of don't-care-about-exploits. There is a legal defense based on exactly this reasoning: laches, "an unreasonable delay in bringing a claim." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'll be honest here, I still am about 50% worried since I thought I was fine this morning until this thread pops up. Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens, though I already went ahead and told bioware that I did the exploit on four characters, now to try and not be worried for Tuesday >.> Why weren't you worried when you blatantly violated the ToS four times? I sort of understand. "Victimless crime" and what not. But at the end of the day, you knew you were using an exploit. You knew it was against the rules you agreed to follow. Now, I'd say that bans are overly harsh for an exploit like this. I'd rather see exploiting characters be stripped of the associated items, schematics and achievements. Perhaps take half their cash as a punitive measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 These analogies crack me up. They always have one small but glaring error in them..."If I say nothing". Not only did EA/BW say something, you agreed to it before you could even play the game. That is why your and every other false premise analogy on this thread fail. Seriously. The analogy would be if before you were even able to set foot on the porch you had to sign a contract that said "I promise not to touch the bowl of money" or before coming onto the magic apple orchard you had to sign a contract that said "I promise to only take one apple a day", etc., etc., etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangrar Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 You're not safe. NOBODY IS! Judgement day is coming for all. PANIC!!!! oh wait, I haven't even done Dread Palace much less Ravagers yet so I ain't got to worry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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