LordArtemis Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) You and your words...can't use "cry" "QQ" "whine" any word that shows up as **** (I used * and didn't spell out a word) any others im missing. And someone can tell those who feel entitled that they are wrong..nothing in the forum rules that you love to bring up says otherwise... Well, look...I don't make the rules. It's just my opinion. Folks can certainly do as they wish. Of course you can tell folks they are wrong if they wish. If you will grant me some license, I will explain a bit..... Saying something like.... "Your asking for too much. Bioware has given us free training, you should be more thankful." Is perfectly within the forum rules as far as I am aware. Now, if you say something like.... "You are being selfish. This is the perfect example of an entitlement mentality".... you are now starting to get pretty close to the line of what is acceptable and what is not. That post certainly could be considered directly insulting. Now, if you say something like... " All you do is whine and complain, QQ more, you make me sick, whining and moaning about what you want like a little baby, grow up you [blank]" that is most DEFINITELY a violation of the rules. The point is, you can express your disdain for something and still remain within the rules that we all have to follow. Take care to remove the emotion and stick to the facts of the matter as you see them and you should be fine. Generally speaking, toxic language would usually be against the rules. Edited December 10, 2014 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Well, look...I don't make the rules. It's just my opinion. Folks can certainly do as they wish. Of course you can tell folks they are wrong if they wish. If you will grant me some license, I will explain a bit..... Saying something like.... "Your asking for too much. Bioware has given us free training, you should be more thankful." Is perfectly within the forum rules as far as I am aware. Now, if you say something like.... "You are being selfish. This is the perfect example of an entitlement mentality".... you are now starting to get pretty close to the line of what is acceptable and what is not. That post certainly could be considered directly insulting. Now, if you say something like... " All you do is whine and complain, QQ more, you make me sick, whining and moaning about what you want like a little baby, grow up you [blank]" that is most DEFINITELY a violation of the rules. The point is, you can express your disdain for something and still remain within the rules that we all have to follow. Take care to remove the emotion and stick to the facts of the matter as you see them and you should be fine. Generally speaking, toxic language would usually be against the rules. IF you have a concern about a post violating the forum rules, then report it. Bioware will review it and decide if it does or does not, and what penalty to apply. Stop trying to be the moral compass for the forum. It's not your job. Fact is.. anytime there is an issue with the game, people will complain. Some will agree, some will disagree. That is the nature of discussion. As for what is or is not bad behavior in the forum... we all have our own opinions.. which is why it's up to Bioware to decide when someone has crossed the line. There is plenty of baiting, trolling, personal attacks, etc. in the forum every day.. by every side of every issue discussed. Personally, when I see someone pointing out an issue and requesting attention/fix by Bioware.. that is fine. At the same time.. people are going to disagree and that is fine as well. HOWEVER... when someone comes on and begins by denigrating Bioware and raging and demanding rather then requesting (which frankly we have seen a lot of this last week)... I have no sympathy and they bring conflict upon themselves by their actions. You are.. IMO... putting too much energy into defending bad behaviors in the forum LA. I know that is not your intention....but that is the way it is coming across. I know you well enough to know that you are simply trying to appeal to members to be calm, reasonable, and respectful. However, all you are actually doing is fanning the flames in some cases. /2-cents. Edited December 10, 2014 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Fair enough, and of course I am stretching it a bit. I suppose my point would be that what one considers bad behavior another may consider acceptable behavior. I find the request for a refund acceptable behavior. Certainly much more acceptable than trolling, which folks do on a constant basis in and out of the game. I would rather see a game and forum full of folks asking for things all day, then see one more "QQ moar", "L2P", "if you don't like it, quit" type of response. I'd rather play with adults, that is, people who behave like adults, personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 You are.. IMO... putting too much energy into defending bad behaviors in the forum LA. I know that is not your intention....but that is the way it is coming across. I know you well enough to know that you are simply trying to appeal to members to be calm, reasonable, and respectful. However, all you are actually doing is fanning the flames in some cases. /2-cents. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 How about the argument that rewarding bad behavior (in this case, baseless complaints, whining, tantrums) serves only to encourage the same bad behavior in the future? Is that a valid argument against refunds? Are you suggesting that listening to customer feedback is bad?! Geezus man...this is an entertainment product, not your child...lighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Are you suggesting that listening to customer feedback is bad?! Geezus man...this is an entertainment product, not your child...lighten up. Not at all. Customer feedback is good. I daresay that's why BioWare decided to give us this great QoL improvement. But, "You gave us a QoL improvement so we demand a credit refund" is not customer feedback. It's... well, insanity. I mean, seriously, it's like your boss pulling you into his office to tell you he's giving you a 10% raise and you following that up immediately with, "That really pisses me off, you need to give me a 50% bonus to make up for it." Totally irrational. Edited December 10, 2014 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Not at all. Customer feedback is good. But, "You gave us a QoL improvement so we demand a credit refund" is not customer feedback. It's... well, insanity. I mean, seriously, it's like your boss pulling you into his office to tell you he's giving you a 10% raise and you following that up immediately with, "That really pisses me off, you need to give me a 50% bonus to make up for it." Totally irrational. Ok...I misunderstood. I honestly do not care if they do or don't...I don't feel cheated at all, I got an extra week of the content that others didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy_Blackrose Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 HECK NO its bad enough that Bioware even catered to these people who wanted training costs removed, training cost have always been a integral part in mmo since the beginning of time removing these costs effectively dumbed down our mmo and set the pecedent for future giving in to complainers. all in all it was a very bad decision and I think bioware will regret it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code_Airwolf Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Ok...I misunderstood. I honestly do not care if they do or don't...I don't feel cheated at all, I got an extra week of the content that others didn't. ....AND a month+ of 12xXP which some must recall to have occurred way in the past like some 75 years ago or something, and somehow forgotten as a perk we got. Heck, I don't usually even do pre-orders. But 12xXP is why we pre-ordered! Everything else was a bonus. And everyone got free training now as well. Edited December 10, 2014 by Code_Airwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 ofc those voting no are people who didn't pre order sor ;d What does it hurt them to give people refunds? really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscount Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Ok...I misunderstood. I honestly do not care if they do or don't...I don't feel cheated at all, I got an extra week of the content that others didn't. Ya.. that is how I looked at it as well. Playing extra for stuff I had already again was a little much, but meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 ofc those voting no are people who didn't pre order sor ;d What does it hurt them to give people refunds? really? Voted "I Don't Care". Pre-order SoR first day pre-orders were available. Not trolling the poll either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 ofc those voting no are people who didn't pre order sor ;d What does it hurt them to give people refunds? really? Developer time spent doing worthless stuff vs. developer time doing worthwhile stuff. That's what it hurts. Catering to people who throw tantrums without any rational, logical reason only serves to reinforce that behavior in the future. That's what it hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code_Airwolf Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Developer time spent doing worthless stuff vs. developer time doing worthwhile stuff. That's what it hurts. Catering to people who throw tantrums without any rational, logical reason only serves to reinforce that behavior in the future. That's what it hurts. +1 Because where would it end? Suppose Silvers did end up getting glitched and are stronger than they should be. What now? Refunds for repair costs because of it? It'd set a bad precedent and just more problems and manpower going forward. Over and over and over again. Meanwhile not focusing on actual pressing matters. Instead, they actually made a good business decision giving us QoL free training forever , we all recoup and save big going forward, and they took care of it in one swift boot to the head with a server patch. Done. To which I say, Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrellma Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 ofc those voting no are people who didn't pre order sor ;d What does it hurt them to give people refunds? really? False. I voted no. I preordered the game. I did not preorder ROTHC (was on deployment, didn't have access to play) I preordered 3.0. I remember back when every single skill above level 40 cost about 40k. And when ripping mods from Rakata gear cost about 40k per mod. When taking the speeder on Belsavis cost about 11k. I never once demanded a refund when those prices were later reduced. I will not demand a refund now that costs have been removed from skill trainers. I pray they don't reduce/remove the cost associated with ripping mods, but if they do, I won't demand a refund for that either. Demanding a refund for a QoL improvement is stupidity at it's finest. Plain and simple. I could maybe, and I stress MAYBE see asking for a refund if you had spent real money on these things, but you didn't, you spent credits. A fake currency that is easily replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_NovaBlast_ Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) ofc those voting no are people who didn't pre order sor ;d What does it hurt them to give people refunds? really? not only did I preorder but i was level 60 before i even started rishi but i finished the expansion last friday before they even made the announcement. So your statement is not only invalid and make you look foolish but also demonstrates the fact that how people using generalization like "the player base is unhappy or the players demand etcc" I Voted no becase the gesture of removing skills entirely is MORE than generous they didn't have to do that also i'm personally not a self entitled greedy with a ego that demands refunds over trivial matters like so many are on the forums . Some people on here have made an art out of making Rancors out of womprats. For example its the same as if they started selling hk in the market or legacy store and made it legacy wide . All the same type of people would come out demanding compensation becase "OMGZ I had to do it the hard way Complete all the quests and unlock it on each character and spent millions of credits and its not fair" and i would vote no there becase what happens in the past is the past and Bioware has every right to make that decision . Edited December 10, 2014 by _NovaBlast_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_NovaBlast_ Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) double post when trying to edit Edited December 10, 2014 by _NovaBlast_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOHboy Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Those voting no also hate kitties and probably cute puppies as well. How could you NOT want free hand outs and more free stuff just given to you? At one point you thought it was worth the cost. But now that it is free you obviously don't realize that these were worthless to begin with, and thus should have them PAY us for these things that they are now giving for free. Never mind the 1-54 leveling costs, those are irrelevant, it only matters for the 55-60 leveling. The less than 55 leveling are not worthy of a refund since they are tiny and insignificant compared to the costs of 55+ leveling. YES TO FREE STUFF!!! GIVE US MOAR!!!! GIVE US ALL THE THINGS FREE!!!!!!! NO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Those voting no also hate kitties and probably cute puppies as well. If they give back all the credits we have spent during leveling it would be millions if not billions of credits. Do you know what that would do to in-game economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DisIzMe Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Sure i vote yes. This is what i fully expect them to do and failure to do so will play vital part in my "throwing money at SWTOR" decisions. This was either cynical attempt to remove credits from certain demographics , a sign of ineptitude or mix of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy_Blackrose Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Those voting no also hate kitties and probably cute puppies as well. How could you NOT want free hand outs and more free stuff just given to you? At one point you thought it was worth the cost. But now that it is free you obviously don't realize that these were worthless to begin with, and thus should have them PAY us for these things that they are now giving for free. Never mind the 1-54 leveling costs, those are irrelevant, it only matters for the 55-60 leveling. The less than 55 leveling are not worthy of a refund since they are tiny and insignificant compared to the costs of 55+ leveling. YES TO FREE STUFF!!! GIVE US MOAR!!!! GIVE US ALL THE THINGS FREE!!!!!!! NO!!! I dont know maybe its because I am a grown up and I dont expect something for nothing? training skills has a cost as it should be, nothing in real life or game should be free, this whole self entitlement generation we have now is really making a mess of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSupaCoopa Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I don't think they should be refunded. Honestly, if you can't make at least 250-400k a day at level 50+, you're doing it wrong. -Duran'del Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leihn Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I preordered and got to 60 the first day and bought all my skills. I don't really care if they refund or not, but I don't think there is an obligation for them to do so. It's a cost for getting it sooner and being able to do thing sooner, I paid for my skills as did my regular hm group and we did hms before most of our server, I don't know if there's any actual benefit but we should be at least a little bit ahead on the gearing for ops side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nadru Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) I dont know maybe its because I am a grown up and I dont expect something for nothing? training skills has a cost as it should be, nothing in real life or game should be free, this whole self entitlement generation we have now is really making a mess of things. Had these costs been in the game 2 months, I wouldn't be asking for a refund. They were in the game for less than 4 days before the announcement they would be removed. For me, that is unacceptable. The thing with lines in the sand, is they are lines. Your line might be at 1 second, that is fine. Mine is somewhere beyond 96 hours and less than 2 months. I think the costs should be refunded. We can agree to disagree, I have no problem with that. However, one thing this is not, is asking for something for nothing nor self entitlement. I believe this is poor customer service to put costs in the game you were considering removing, then implement that change in less than 96 hours without providing a refund. They are entitled to offer poor customer service, but they need to weigh the impact that has on their bottom line. I am entitled to nothing, but I am asking and suggesting they implement a refund, as it is little cost to them to provide much better customer service. Edited December 10, 2014 by Nadru Typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) This was either cynical attempt to remove credits from certain demographics , a sign of ineptitude or mix of both. Or more likely, it was the devs coming up with a idea they thought would be well received (free training forever!) and instead being surprised by a flood of complaints. It reminds me of a developer interview from Ken Levine, talking about the original Bioshock. The game, as first released, was "Widescreen Compatible". In other words, it played natively on 4:3 and 16:9 screens, without any hacks. The game was designed around the widescreen experience. The devs did not think to specifically code a "restrictive" FoV (field of view) when going to 4:3. Meaning that, rather than the widescreeners getting EXTRA real estate on the left and right, the non-widescreeners got extra real estate on the top and bottom. The furor that surrounded this fact hadn't been seen since New Coke! Honestly, you'd think that Levine had personally traveled to everyone's home and filled their stockings with coal and burned all their Xmas trees down. He's sitting there, more than a bit surprised that OF ALL THE THINGS players could chose to be upset about, they chose the fact that the devs didn't purposely gimp the 4:3 aspect ratio experience, just to make the 16:9 people feel better about themselves. My analysis of that situation (and this one with the clamor for refunds): people be crazy. Edited December 10, 2014 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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