Why Nerfing Slicing was a BAD idea

[Applecrow]

I know most of the complaints: It creates inflation, its profitable while leveling whereas crafting is not, etc.

 

The First and foremost reason why the nerf was a bad idea is this: Bioware caved to forum whining and they caved WAY too fast. We aren't even a week past launch, there are handful of 50's, and there is no such beast as a stable economy in game. Yet enough people came and whined on the forums that Slicing was too overpowered vs other crafting and needed a nerf.

 

No, not really.

 

I've seen all the numbers people post about making tons of credits and as a 400 slicer, I can tell you sure, it makes a ton of credits. While you are leveling.

 

I can sit back and make 8-10k credits easy. I could do that gathering or pvp'ing just as fast.

 

Now lets back up and look at the big picture. 8-10k credits is nothing. Bike training is 25k. Speeder training costs 200k. Most skill training past 20 cost 7-22k and go up from there.

 

At 400 slicing, if I'm making 20-50k a night off my lockboxes doing ONLY that, I'm going to break even, or at best have some breathing room.

 

At that rate it supports me fine now when I'm in my 30's. Is it going to support me at endgame, hell no. Especially now that its been nerfed.

 

Slicing makes an easy target because SWTOR is a heavy credit sink system. Everything is expensive in this game.

 

Slicers start out ahead, sure, no one is disputing that, but the people raking in the real numbers here know that slicing is a supplement, but the real money makers are the mission mats that you can't get from normal gathering professions. Again, the problem here is the same reason Slicing is taking all the heat: crafting useful items while you level costs a ton of credits.

 

Rather than blaming a system that (knowingly and purposefully) costs more to level than its worth (i.e. blue/purple crafted items) the 'free to level' slicing skill is getting all the hate. There is no reason to craft a level 20 epic item, especially when you can't get what it cost to make in return. Its a waste of mats and time. That's what endgame is for, and where it will matter. Unique items are all you need to worry about other than skill points.

 

The solution is the number one money maker in any MMO ever: If you are leveling DON'T BUY ANYTHING. If you are spending 10-20k to craft those superior quality items at mid level, its not slicing's fault that you are broke!

 

In all seriousness, you can level any crafting skill to max for free or practically free (i.e only using gathering missions for purchasable mats which give you a skill point in addition to what you need).

 

tl:dr Slicing isn't the problem, whiners jumping the gun before we even see how the endgame economy works are the problem, and Bioware making changes and nerfs based off that kind of info paints a very bad picture for the future.

[Umuri]

Actually, the fact that you can run it offline means slicing IS a problem.

If you even can make 10 creds a minute, so 6k an hour from slicing(which is 1/10th what you'll make if you do it right), that's 6k PER ALT.

Say you setup 6 alts with slicing, lets say each has 3 companions out that's 18 * 6k per hour, or roughly 100k per hour, and that's, again, 1/10th what you'll make if you did slicing right. And that's on TOP of whatever you make farming or pvping or whatever.

 

I have no issues with slicing, but that combined iwth doing it on offline characters was just broken.

[yioyo]

actually slicing is pretty good it pretty much a controller i use slicing I'm a lv 27 with a slicing of about 225 i make decent amount of credits but i have about 15k right now dude buying a speeder is a good choice but MAN ITS COSTLY 40k for the license and 8k for the cheapest bike also those crafters gotta sell that stuff which i buy since I'm no crafter so if your a slicer you most likely buy better gear since you can't make it ,but just my vies Edited December 25, 2011 by yioyo

[Grimmace]

Actually, the fact that you can run it offline means slicing IS a problem.

If you even can make 10 creds a minute, so 6k an hour from slicing(which is 1/10th what you'll make if you do it right), that's 6k PER ALT.

Say you setup 6 alts with slicing, lets say each has 3 companions out that's 18 * 6k per hour, or roughly 100k per hour, and that's, again, 1/10th what you'll make if you did slicing right. And that's on TOP of whatever you make farming or pvping or whatever.

 

I have no issues with slicing, but that combined iwth doing it on offline characters was just broken.

 

That would be a sound argument if you could make the skills autoque themselves while offline, but you can't, all you can do is do a 30 minute que when you go to bed on a few pets and make a little extra pocket change. If you think that's a major game breaking problem then well you're just plain wrong.

[SigmaX]

You are wrong on several points. First, you cannot level any crafting skill for free. Most crafting skills require a mission-based credit sink skill like diplomacy.

 

Secondly, you assume that everyone is taking slicing. This is false. It's great that slicing is "supporting you in your 30's", but if someone decides not to take slicing, how do they compete in the economy?

 

Myself, I rolled alts specifically to run slicing missions. This is poor game design. The primary credit faucet should come from running missions and not a money crafting skill. If people do not like crafting, they can make money doing things they like such as fighting and running missions. It is not necessary to trivialize the crafting game.

 

This is not to mention how badly slicing will be abused by credit-selling companies. Slicing in general is poorly designed. It goes against everything we know about how to make a successful MMO economy.

[Umuri]

That would be a sound argument if you could make the skills autoque themselves while offline, but you can't, all you can do is do a 30 minute que when you go to bed on a few pets and make a little extra pocket change. If you think that's a major game breaking problem then well you're just plain wrong.

 

Except you're mistaking where I said do this while you're fully logged out. I meant each CHARACTER is logged out.

 

No, you do it while you're playing. Every hour you take a minute out and re-send out missions (takes roughly 4 minutes) by character hopping, then go back to what you're doing.

 

Nice try though.

[Asurai]

wait what? what nerf

[Bellaralo]

I give a A+ to the initial thread. Thanks for speaking up, and all your points are correct. Slicing was basically keeping a great cash flow in the GTN for people selling useless items they crafted while leveling..

 

Guess what my sales were today?

 

Very little indeed, people are having doubts about slicing.. dropping it.. and now *today* I see the GTN flooded with massive ammounts of crafting materials... and craftable lowbie gear.

 

Grats on QQ'ing guys, now your stuff isnt going to fly off the GTN no more. Your loss I guess.

[eponymousbosch]

Could someone point to some info about this nerf, preferably a dev post, otherwise this sounds like fud.

[erlanger]

i'd like to know this too, was it nerfed or what? and if so WHEN?

[Bellaralo]

There was a twitter feed from someone confirming that the issue with slicing "had been taken care of" .. So no idea about that. I get a feeling it has less drops for recipes and missions now.. today I only got 2, day before about 10.. still no idea.

[Unaki]

The nerf is actually baloney. The official SWTOR twitter feed has nothing related to the problem being taken care of and nobody has seen any information on it. Edited December 25, 2011 by Unaki

[inseeisyou]

I think there was something on the official White House website about this nerf actually... turns out it was the slicing nerf that killed JFK.

[TheDarkerPhantom]

The nerf is actually baloney. The official SWTOR twitter feed has nothing related to the problem being taken care of and nobody has seen any information on it.

 

 

I don't agree this is an issue.

 

The same amount of money can be made from any of the mission base crew skills.

 

I must be the only logical person who understands that "Gold Sellers" do not farm in these types of games. It is much easier to compromise our accounts, take our stuff, and sell our credits back to us.

[Terraluna]

the problem with slicing is it created money out of nowhere which increases the money supply which in turn lowers money demand making credits worth less.

 

Other crafts make items then sell them, but when you sell an item your just transferring money from one player to another, not creating new money.

 

I would not be opposed to slicing being basically free to level from the money returns with an occasional bonus. It does give other rewards too that are pretty nice and lets you slice objects in the world which is useful as well.

 

I do hope they did fix it, People making a whole crew of slicing alts and creating a credit spewing fountain was bad times

[Froederick]

the problem with slicing is it created money out of nowhere which increases the money supply which in turn lowers money demand making credits worth less.

 

Other crafts make items then sell them, but when you sell an item your just transferring money from one player to another, not creating new money.

 

I guess we should do away with missions and lootable mobs too.

Everyone points to creating money from thin air and never points to money leaving the economy entirely from npc merchants and trainers.

Also mission skills needed to craft remove a good percentage of credits from the game entirely. Slicing just helps off set that.

If money only left the economy permanently but wasn't created that would be worse for the economy.

[Durzaka]

Except you're mistaking where I said do this while you're fully logged out. I meant each CHARACTER is logged out.

 

No, you do it while you're playing. Every hour you take a minute out and re-send out missions (takes roughly 4 minutes) by character hopping, then go back to what you're doing.

 

Nice try though.

 

Im not going to waste my time, make 8 characters, get them to 10 and then go through 8 load screens just to queue up one mission on 7 of them. (It would take me longer than 4 minutes to log in, queue, then log on of those 7.)

 

That is just a ridiculous notion. If people want to go to those extremes, let them.

 

A nerf right now hurts the average player using it on their main.

[Applecrow]

I give a A+ to the initial thread. Thanks for speaking up, and all your points are correct. Slicing was basically keeping a great cash flow in the GTN for people selling useless items they crafted while leveling..

 

Guess what my sales were today?

 

Very little indeed, people are having doubts about slicing.. dropping it.. and now *today* I see the GTN flooded with massive ammounts of crafting materials... and craftable lowbie gear.

 

Grats on QQ'ing guys, now your stuff isnt going to fly off the GTN no more. Your loss I guess.

 

I agree. Slicing is like a stimulus package for low level players. Slicing gives you disposable income while you level, and has yet to prove viable at high levels for sustaining a character. Even the idea of setting up factories of 7 alts slicing all the time is asking for a ridiculous effort for a effectively minor return.

 

Slicers in turn buy low level mats off the GTN, distributing those credits to crafters. With slicing gone, very few people will have the disposable income with which to purchase superfluous items at low level.

 

I make almost as much from quests and trash as I do from slicing. I have over 500k at the moment, which sounds like a lot, but I'm also about to buy my speeder training (200k) and a speeder (25k) As a cybertech with the custom speeder recipe, that's more credits I'll be dumping into the GTN to craft that item. I'm also looking at skill training costs equal to 25k a pop. I'm not rich by any standard, but I'd say I'm comfortable.

 

Oh and yes, you certainly can level a crafting skill to max off the basic gathering skill. You can't make any blue or higher items, but you can get it to 400. And since you can do missions for any material you need, the costs aren't totally wasted. RE will stretch those mats even furthur.

 

As for the actual nerf, it seems as if I'm not getting lockbox missions nearly as often, and now have to spread them out over several tiers of missions. So no official word, but it seems like they have tweaked it.

 

My primary point is that its silly to make any major changes or even complaints about how a system works when we haven't even seen it in full swing. Like I said in my initial post, there is no SWTOR economy yet. Give it a couple of months, let guilds actually start doing operations and the community to get a feel for endgame SWTOR. Then we can start talking about what needs to be changed. Even with 400 slicing and 4 companions, I don't see slicing being viable for maintaining an endgame character's wallet.

[Osierys]

Ok so obviously no one understands what inflation is in this context.

 

I sell mats. They sell quick. So i increase the price to see how much I can get for it. No matter how much money people have they will always try to get the most they can. If not, someone else will buy and re-sell it because they know someone is going to still buy it.

 

This is how slicing ruins the economy. If it can be sold for more, it will be. Those that cannot afford it (did not take slicing) are isolated and left behind. If there was no slicing, that is, if some players weren't effortlessly making much more credits than everyone else, the GTN would stabalize itself because sellers would have to compromise on price. They will have to make their goods available to everyone and not just the ones with disposable incomes.

 

Secondly. Again I say no matter how much money people have they will always try to get the most they can. Just because someone has 1 million credits and can buy everything doesn't mean they're not going to try to make more credits. It doesn't mean they're going to buy more from GTN. It's just screwd up human nature. Hence why trickle down economics never works.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Osierys

[Terraluna]

I guess we should do away with missions and lootable mobs too.

Everyone points to creating money from thin air and never points to money leaving the economy entirely from npc merchants and trainers.

Also mission skills needed to craft remove a good percentage of credits from the game entirely. Slicing just helps off set that.

If money only left the economy permanently but wasn't created that would be worse for the economy.

 

As you said, missions and mobs already create a ton of money from thin air. Having lots of places for it to disappear to permanently is a very good thing. The more money sinks there are, the more money will retain it's value.

Having more sources for it to appear from nowhere on the other hand doesn't help at all especially when seemingly everyone is taking it due to other crafts ending up costing more than they're worth for the most part.

 

Slicing could easily have better uses than just magically making money. The mission starting items it creates are amazing and would be a perfectly good source of income since they are pretty much guaranteed artifact drops and one time use so other crafters will want to use them as much as possible. Especially considering the best items are critical success artifact items meaning people will be burning through artifact materials just trying for that crit and destroying the normals for a chance at some material returns.

 

Right now very few people are buying them since almost everyone is just slicing

[Hajizan]

At this stage of the game there needs to be ways of making money. If people do not have money to spend things will move very slowly on the ah. People leveling should be having fun, crafting, selling and buying from ah, and have enough money where they do not have to grind for money for the game's money sinks.

 

Too much money is never a bad thing.

 

Money in mmo's really don't mean much anymore when you get to level cap. Gear is boa, you really only need money for consumables and game money sinks.

[MichaelLatta]

One tenant that BioWare has stated is they do not want to force players to do things they do not want to do. Thus, there are no materials dropped only in heroics forcing crafters to level and do flash points. Thus, you can level in pvp. For someone to be viable as a crafter there needs to be a market to sell into. Until there are lots of people at max and craftable items worth buying and worth making there is going to be a balance issue.

 

At least for now slicing allows enough input to the economy game to jumpstart it, and we do not know for a stable economy if it is over or under balanced.

[Kapono]

Im not going to waste my time, make 8 characters, get them to 10 and then go through 8 load screens just to queue up one mission on 7 of them. (It would take me longer than 4 minutes to log in, queue, then log on of those 7.)

 

That is just a ridiculous notion. If people want to go to those extremes, let them.

 

A nerf right now hurts the average player using it on their main.

 

I did waste my time. I have 8 characters running slicing at any one time, all on ~25 minute missions. I log over to each and start a new mission every 25 min or so (takes ~5 min to do this).

 

Yeah... I'm making bank and I'm swimming in mission items and schematics.

 

Sure it'll get nerfed, but until the Fun Police arrive with the nerfbat, I'm enjoying it.

[Ohoni]

What nerf? I've been consistently making a fortune. My level 29 character has well over 200K credits in the bank, after speeder training and buying 25K in inventory upgrades. I tend to average around 10-20K per half hour at this point.

[Herculieas]

In my opinion, it wasn't nerfed hard enough. Rolling in dough right now. Then again, I still have R2 and R3 speeder passives to buy.