Anyone else disappointed with the new Talent Trees?

[Ashley_Jedi]

I am rather new to playing SWTOR, I played when the game launched for about 2 months, then left and have recently come back. I find the new system rather dull, It lacks any real kind of customization. The Quest log being 25 quests only is VERY annoying, and I think that Rishi, and Yavin 4 Terrain/Floral could do with some love - Non moving trees and grass. It looks unrealistic to me..

[wellswar]

Free choice. Unique builds. Individuality.

 

First generation MMO - Asheron's Call. You had a certain number of starting points and with those you could build ANY type of character from the complete assortment of skills and attributes. Sword mage? No-magics melee? Debuffing glass cannon crossbow? Crafter main with no combat skills? Cook/Archer? Literally anything under the sun. No skill trees, no skill railroad. And the builds were awesome. The players loved the freedom.

 

This game was the exact same thing that came to my mind on this topic.

 

Man I gimped several characters early on. Late in the game with timed skill reset quests, it made the process more fore giving. The corpse runs *yikes* scares me to even think about:)

 

I don't mind what they have done in this game. But I would like to see games get back to "Choices Matter" approach. Allowing you to change your mind at a cost, that takes time.

[TravelersWay]

Well thats an ok opinion.. But to me the only ones that are totaly happy wih most of it are people like you that dont like haveing to think..And haveing most of the utilitys specced for PvP those are the guys loving it... Majority of everythread the PvPers are happy as hell as its all geared to help them except for some vague raid changes and 2 VERY short story lines..

 

Yeah, the utilities at this point on the couple of toons I've updated seem quite lackluster, especially those in the mid-tier. I am having problems picking which ones to take because none of them seem very beneficial to me or the particular skills I like to use. In the old skill tree days, I had problems picking where to spend my points because there seemed to be quite a few good things I wanted to pick, and couldn't decide which. I am not a hybrid player either, so the loss of hybrids is meaningless to me.

 

You're completely ignoring the fact that the effect it caused on those players reverberated down to ALL players. More dev time balancing is less dev time making content. More developer time trying to figure out how to keep skill trees viable as more expansions are released and level caps are increased means slower development time and problems increasing exponentially as levels go higher. New players have to wait longer and longer and longer to get their cool skills as hybrids force stuff deeper and deeper into the trees and levels go up and up.

 

Or they could have just forgone increasing the level cap and actually focused on making more challenging and interesting content for the levels we currently have. In the end, it doesn't matter how many times they raise the level cap, the content ends up remaining the same, relatively speaking.

Edited December 4, 2014 by TravelersWay

[HazardousMatt]

Also notice all the ones loving it are Alot of PvP types and or people with High level toons....

 

Try starting over with no legacy perks or sending over free equipment and credits.... Been trying it.. the new guys are getting murdered by silver mobs .. where as gold ones arent as tough as the silver ones...

 

To be fair that would happen before the expac (the silver/gold thing). I could be trucking right along on one of my alts, murdering golds, then jump a silver and get my rear handed to me. It all depends on the specific mechanics of the mob involved, whether or not you miss an interrupt, etc.

 

I will admit I've only played my main since the patch hit, but I'll go jump a few silvers on my lowbie sniper and see what happens. Back in five.

 

EDIT: Ok wound up using my Sith Assassin instead of my sniper. Level 22, Deception spec on Nar Shadda, wearing all level 19 greens. Went around jumping on even level (or 1 level below) silvers. Killed them all with ease. Granted that was one spec of one class, but at least for that particular character I'm not seeing an issue. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it's one of the small handful of characters I have available to test with.

 

If what you're talking about is getting slaughtered by more than one silver, I was seeing that before the expac. Are there particular classes/disciplines that are causing people issues?

Edited December 4, 2014 by HazardousMatt

[kongol]

To be fair that would happen before the expac (the silver/gold thing). I could be trucking right along on one of my alts, murdering golds, then jump a silver and get my rear handed to me. It all depends on the specific mechanics of the mob involved, whether or not you miss an interrupt, etc.

 

I will admit I've only played my main since the patch hit, but I'll go jump a few silvers on my lowbie sniper and see what happens. Back in five.

 

EDIT: Ok wound up using my Sith Assassin instead of my sniper. Level 22, Deception spec on Nar Shadda, wearing all level 19 greens. Went around jumping on even level (or 1 level below) silvers. Killed them all with ease. Granted that was one spec of one class, but at least for that particular character I'm not seeing an issue. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but it's one of the small handful of characters I have available to test with.

 

If what you're talking about is getting slaughtered by more than one silver, I was seeing that before the expac. Are there particular classes/disciplines that are causing people issues?

 

Most of the guys i was helping where tanks or snip/smugs.. i think they missed some of the mobs so called reduced damage on some of there skills... especially DoTs..

[Aries_cz]

Or they could have just forgone increasing the level cap and actually focused on making more challenging and interesting content for the levels we currently have. In the end, it doesn't matter how many times they raise the level cap, the content ends up remaining the same, relatively speaking.

 

Unless you want to have a drastic difference between old level 55 and new level 55, you have to raise the cap once in a while.

If they just kept increasing the conent for level 55, eventually getting to gear rating 200 or whatever, imagine how impossible would it be for a new player to reach those levels...

[Hitomo_x]

its just lazy ... not problematic to keep the balance in the tree system ...

 

short story ... lets assume every content released after the game went f2p is in reality the content that was planed for the first big expansion of a sub based only (cartell market free) swtor ...

 

in f2p mode u cant invest into a game anymore, instead u have to make the most profit out of the stuff that is already available ... so all the content that existed for the first big expansion at the time the game went f2p, was

dragged out into updates and smaller xpecs to keep people iterested over the last two years ...

 

now is the time they are probably are running out of this content and they are not even in for making some simple voice records anymore

 

so the ones planed changes and additions to the skill and treesystem that were ment for a lvl60 caracters, was used already when they brought level cap to 55 ...

 

what they do now is nothing else then giving us the exact same things at lvl60 they gave us last time at lvl55 ...

 

look at the new skill tree ... it only places skills u already had later in the progress, and the lvl57 skill is only an replacment for ur mainskill ...

 

so instead of real development and progress, they simply rewinded everything to make us level from 50 to 55 again, only difference they call it 55-60 this time ... to make it not so obvious they redesigned the skil tree window and nerfed chars after lvl55

 

but in fact, I have less choices in my class buil and have to deal with functions to choose that will make no sense to my specific class or discipline ...

 

stay fresh

[Max_Killjoy]

Unless you want to have a drastic difference between old level 55 and new level 55, you have to raise the cap once in a while.

If they just kept increasing the conent for level 55, eventually getting to gear rating 200 or whatever, imagine how impossible would it be for a new player to reach those levels...

 

Sounds like you played WoW.

 

(Not a dig directed at you, just that's what happened in WoW at one point.)

Edited December 4, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[SnoggyMack]

This is probably a unique perspective on the switch to disciplines but here goes:

 

I'm a returning player. And I have returned to quite a few MMOs. It's just a thing you know? I play an MMO. Take a break. Get the itch again. Come back.

 

Disciplines made that a bit easier. It pretty much lets me come back, and just log in and go. No more having to figure out where to place my points again. Unlike, say, LOTRO which was really confusing to return to. In this game I was pretty much fighting things and doing quests within seconds.

 

So disciplines worked out nice for me.

 

But I'm guessing that's not the typical experience with this change.

[Eldrenath]

This game was the exact same thing that came to my mind on this topic.

 

Man I gimped several characters early on. Late in the game with timed skill reset quests, it made the process more fore giving. The corpse runs *yikes* scares me to even think about:)

 

I don't mind what they have done in this game. But I would like to see games get back to "Choices Matter" approach. Allowing you to change your mind at a cost, that takes time.

 

Those days are gone because those games weren't fun. They were very niche and appealed to a very small segment of players. Video games are a hobby for me. I have a wife, I have a career. I work hard, I have personal and family obligations and a home to maintain. I don't have time to play a game that is, in essence, a second job. If those games were so great, if they truly would be better and appeal to more people, then gaming companies would be going TO that style of gameplay, not away. They've gone away from it because there's no money there and there's no money there because not many people want to play like that.

 

I tend to think that those games weren't that great. We all look back at them so fondly because for many of us, we were playing them when we were younger. Many people look back fondly on the hobbies of our youth. People don't really miss the 40 man raids and the hours and hours camping spots to get that one rare drop. What they miss is being 16 and having no responsibilities, staying up all night, drinking mountain dew and laughing with friends. Those games weren't that good--it's just for many people that was a really great time in life.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Eldrenath

[KrullD]

You seem to have missed that this is not a single player game. It is an MMO. Just because you "don't care" about balancing doesn't make it any less important to the game or the majority of players.

no man i think you missed the point..

 

this change was NOT made for the MAJORITY OF PLAYERS or for BALANCE...

 

it was made to make the programmers job easier and save BW money...probably allow them to fire a couple ppl they didnt feel they needed. instead of fixing the system...they just found a new system...and followed the famous trail of breadcrumbs that other companies did.

 

this was a corporate decision and every corporate decision is always made to increase profits. less expense = more profits..it has NOTHING to do with keeping ppl happy.

[Quraswren]

It was not too bad for my sage but the new disciplies suck for my infiltration shadow.

 

Mainly PVP stuff I'll never use.

 

So far, all I can tell is BW wanted to kill hybrids and make a secondary tree for PVP choices. PVE got a bit screwed.

[KrullD]

Those days are gone because those games weren't fun. They were very niche and appealed to a very small segment of players. Video games are a hobby for me. I have a wife, I have a career. I work hard, I have personal and family obligations and a home to maintain. I don't have time to play a game that is, in essence, a second job. If those games were so great, if they truly would be better and appeal to more people, then gaming companies would be going TO that style of gameplay, not away. They've gone away from it because there's no money there and there's no money there because not many people want to play like that.

 

I tend to think that those games weren't that great. We all look back at them so fondly because for many of us, we were playing them when we were younger. Many people look back fondly on the hobbies of our youth. People don't really miss the 40 man raids and the hours and hours camping spots to get that one rare drop. What they miss is being 16 and having no responsibilities, staying up all night, drinking mountain dew and laughing with friends. Those games weren't that good--it's just for many people that was a really great time in life.

 

i dont know what the *^ kind of analogy this is..talent trees go back as far as Diablo 2 or further even. those games were about LONG grinds and a lot of frustration and they were FUN. because after all the hard work you had something to be proud about...it paid off, so you could go kick the snot out of other players (or have some good duels), or it gave you the power to HELP your friends out. it had personal meaning.

 

if your personal life means you cant play a game like that then DONT..go play candy crush.

 

world of warcraft went from something like 200,000 subs on release to well over 22 million by its FIRST expansion...based on its original, long-grind..40 man raid..unbalanced pvp for months..no store to buy things from ---SYSTEM-.

 

and you say thats BORING? and that the game died because of that?.....ok.look...no

 

its always about MONEY...or...LACK of creativity in the story. Greed ruins those awesome games all time. it was a curse. for many of those 22 million ppl their golden years were over and their lives sucked cuz they got older..and the social aspect of the game gave them at least something to look forward to for a little while each day when they got to relax.

[kongol]

It was not too bad for my sage but the new disciplies suck for my infiltration shadow.

 

Mainly PVP stuff I'll never use.

 

So far, all I can tell is BW wanted to kill hybrids and make a secondary tree for PVP choices. PVE got a bit screwed.

 

Yea thats how it feels to me too....

[Hitomo_x]

its always about MONEY...or...LACK of creativity in the story. Greed ruins those awesome games all time. it was a curse. for many of those 22 million ppl their golden years were over and their lives sucked cuz they got older..and the social aspect of the game gave them at least something to look forward to for a little while each day when they got to relax.

 

haha ... good read ... and true

[Eldrenath]

i dont know what the *^ kind of analogy this is..talent trees go back as far as Diablo 2 or further even. those games were about LONG grinds and a lot of frustration and they were FUN. because after all the hard work you had something to be proud about...it paid off, so you could go kick the snot out of other players (or have some good duels), or it gave you the power to HELP your friends out. it had personal meaning.

 

if your personal life means you cant play a game like that then DONT..go play candy crush.

 

world of warcraft went from something like 200,000 subs on release to well over 22 million by its FIRST expansion...based on its original, long-grind..40 man raid..unbalanced pvp for months..no store to buy things from ---SYSTEM-.

 

and you say thats BORING? and that the game died because of that?.....ok.look...no

 

its always about MONEY...or...LACK of creativity in the story. Greed ruins those awesome games all time. it was a curse. for many of those 22 million ppl their golden years were over and their lives sucked cuz they got older..and the social aspect of the game gave them at least something to look forward to for a little while each day when they got to relax.

 

I almost don't know where to begin. I guess I could ask at what point I said any game "died"? I re-read my post, I never mentioned any game dying.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Eldrenath

[Aries_cz]

Sounds like you played WoW.

 

(Not a dig directed at you, just that's what happened in WoW at one point.)

 

I did for a bit on private server, roughly for 2 years on TBC (quit after short time in WotLK, I hated the lore butchering there).

However, what I described is not limited to WoW. If you are making progressively harder and harder content for the same levels, those players must be compensated by gear that helps them do it. If a new player get to the max level, he cannot do the new content. By resetting everyone back to square one (or square 2 for those with good equipment from former level cap), which is what level cap increase is, you open up the content for everybody.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Aries_cz

[Hitomo_x]

you open up the content for everybody.

 

u make it casual ^^ and thats not the difintion of good gamedesign ...

 

swtor has the very best class design of all the traditionel (tank and spank) MMOs

 

the lightsaber classes are so great ^^ ... every step back from that greatness hurts

 

mainly they are basicly just setting u back five levels and make u earn everythign u had back,

instead of real Progression (gamedesign wise)

[Sorwen]

I don't think some get the fact for some people it isn't gear progression that drives some it is character progression. We get 7 for the majority non-choices(whether you like the new system or not some classes don't even benefit from the choices) in our character progression and that is it. Even if the choices were minimal before at least we had some room to build(even if people want to believe we didn't). There is no sense of accomplishment there, no sense of playing your character, and that is what we hate. That is why trees came about in the first place because people got tired of only having force fed abilities the whole time.

 

I would rather have fun building a failure of a character that was mine then force fed a character that could beat everyone and everything. The thing was though there were multiple viable builds that were perfectly fine and not over powered either. All you have to do is look at what was taken out/changed and what was given/changed to to see that most of this was for PvP. It isn't enough that some powers escaped their fate because they were able to make the change only for PvP.

 

This is what you get when you hire a majority of your people from MMO's that failed and drive away or let go most of those that actually knew how to be innovative.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Sorwen

[KrullD]

-Those days are gone because those games weren't fun.

-They were very niche and appealed to a very small segment of players.

-If those games were so great, if they truly would be better and appeal to more people..

-They've gone away from it because there's no money there...

-not many people want to play like that.

-Those games weren't that good--it's just for many people that was a really great time in life.

 

youre basically saying that those games died because they wern't good to begin with

[TravelersWay]

Unless you want to have a drastic difference between old level 55 and new level 55, you have to raise the cap once in a while.

If they just kept increasing the conent for level 55, eventually getting to gear rating 200 or whatever, imagine how impossible would it be for a new player to reach those levels...

 

I mean to stop vertical progression at that point altogether and move to a horizontal progression for the end game, therefore gear rating would not increase, but then become cosmetic. Ultimately, it would alleviate many problems by doing this.

[KrullD]

k so youre broadening the subject from talent trees to gear and progression ...but anyways.

 

horizontal progression is the most boring imo..its nice to see once in awhile but you dont end up feeling any stronger, you wont get any new skills or talents and the challenge will be almost exactly the same...in short..it gets old real fast.

 

 

this coversation is about why they condensed the skill trees down to minimal choices and removed a huge customization aspect from the game.

 

seems like half the players are extremely upset

and the other half just want to ride along with it for the sake of new and faster content additions..(which imo will still be coming at the exact same pace as before, seems as they refuse to hire new devs to help them with their current problems)

[Orizuru]

seems like half the players are extremely upset

and the other half just want to ride along with it for the sake of new and faster content additions..(which imo will still be coming at the exact same pace as before, seems as they refuse to hire new devs to help them with their current problems)

 

That is conjecture.

 

Less than 1% of players are represented on the forums. The bulk of the players are happily gaming away most likely and could care less what is being discussed here. I wouldn't even call the displeased half of the forum population even. Its more accurate to say there is small group of very vocal forum members who just keep bring this topic back to the top of the page.

 

There is a lot more active discussion going in threads about the bugged Revan fight than these threads.

 

Its also inaccurate to say that those of us who support the changes are just riding along for the sake of faster content. Several of us, I know myself and TUXs at the very least, have been arguing against that red herring because it is just conjecture as well.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Orizuru

[Shaedi]

The WoW version of this same Discipline System is EXACTLY the reason I left WoW and came back to SWTOR and resubbed just a month ago, before SOR was released. I left WoW because every single character of the same class would be exactly the same, no matter what. There are no "better players" anymore on WoW because of this, and the people who just want to customize their character to any spec they want arent able to do that anymore (like me). I'm officially done with swtor now, I'm unsubbing today and leaving, going back to PWI, where at least you can customize your character skills and stats to whatever you want. For anyone who says PWI is p2w because its f2p with the option of buying better things from the cash market, that's fine, some of us don't play the game to be "the best" or even "exactly the same", we want variety, options, customization, freedom with your character to do whatever you want to with it. I'm sad to be leaving because of an update, but i just cannot deal with being "exactly the same" as every other Gaurdian or Shadow, etc, out there. You've been a good game SWTOR, but I'm done! Goodbye all!

[MediumD]

How did you customize your character before? Did you go 1/2 immortal and 1/2 rage on a Jug?