Hate this new skill tree

[Lotharofxev]

I find it highly "odd" that up to 3.0, even when we went from level 50 to 55, the trees were fine. Suddenly the addition of five levels and the corresponding choices throws the whole system into chaos.

[MillionsKNives]

I find it highly "odd" that up to 3.0, even when we went from level 50 to 55, the trees were fine. Suddenly the addition of five levels and the corresponding choices throws the whole system into chaos.

 

The tree system up to 3.0 was not fine, but it worked well enough. Going into 3.0 and not making drastic changes to alter or remove the skill trees altogether would have only exacerbated the existing issues.

[davidp_newton]

That's BS. Groups wipe because people don't know the fight or don't do their job. The wipe when DPS pulls aggro and doesn't drop threat or when the tank gets shot in the face bt Toborro's laser.. I doubt any group ever wiped because a few people were hitting only 94.6% of the maximum had they had the "right" build.

 

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Why does content have minimum suggested gear ratings? Tell you what: why don't you go into hard mode of one of the new operations in rating 150 gear: the best in the game at level 50. Execute the mechanics perfectly and let us know what happens. Mechanic execution is extremely important in HM and NiM operations, but it is not the only thing that is important. DPS and HPS checks happen and regardless of whether you execute the mechanics perfectly below a certain level of gear you simply will not be able to kill the enemies fast enough or heal the damage well enough to get through those checks. For tanks the same is true in that below a certain level of gear your DTPS will simply be too high for the healers to cope with.

 

Player skill and mechanics execution matter far more, but gear also matters in HM and NiM ops and to a much lesser degree because of bolster in ranked PvP.

[Aries_cz]

I find it highly "odd" that up to 3.0, even when we went from level 50 to 55, the trees were fine. Suddenly the addition of five levels and the corresponding choices throws the whole system into chaos.

 

MillionsKNives already said it. in 2.0, they had to move capstone skills (which usually form a very large part of your output) to higher tier to prevent overpowered hybrid builds with the extra points (instead, we got only the slightly overpowered hybrids). Which means that new players acquired their capstone skill much later, meaning much lower effectiveness.

So while the trees "worked", they did not really "work" properly, and another addition of extra points would lead to yet another moving of capstone skills, or much more hybrid build (or heavy nerf of existing capstone skills, and creating new ones in higher tiers). And as any developer would tell you, hybrid build are usually outperforming the intended levels, creating a balancing nightmare.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Aries_cz

[Zoom_VI]

That's BS. Groups wipe because people don't know the fight or don't do their job. The wipe when DPS pulls aggro and doesn't drop threat or when the tank gets shot in the face bt Toborro's laser.. I doubt any group ever wiped because a few people were hitting only 94.6% of the maximum had they had the "right" build.

 

There is this thing called "enrage" and it would like to have a word with you.

[EllieAnne]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Why does content have minimum suggested gear ratings? Tell you what: why don't you go into hard mode of one of the new operations in rating 150 gear: the best in the game at level 50.

 

My post was in response skills and build, not gear. I was pointing out that the idea that anything less than the optimum skills chosen = group wipe is ludicrous and look at some of my earlier posts, I admit that with NiM the optimal skill set is needed - but how many players do NiM and of those how many use non-optimum skills?

[Max_Killjoy]

That's BS. Groups wipe because people don't know the fight or don't do their job. The wipe when DPS pulls aggro and doesn't drop threat or when the tank gets shot in the face bt Toborro's laser.. I doubt any group ever wiped because a few people were hitting only 94.6% of the maximum had they had the "right" build.

 

True -- those players are going to be there no matter what BW does with the skill system.

 

Bad gear (But I'm a jedi, I need Willpower on my knight!), bad attitude, bad something.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Grayseven]

My post was in response skills and build, not gear. I was pointing out that the idea that anything less than the optimum skills chosen = group wipe is ludicrous and look at some of my earlier posts, I admit that with NiM the optimal skill set is needed - but how many players do NiM and of those how many use non-optimum skills?

 

It doesn't matter how many people do them, the simple fact that an optimal build exists and that it was used as the basis for the mechanics of NiM OPs is enough.

 

Reverse your question. How many people used an non-optimal build? Web sites like Dulfy and Noxxic, constant discussion of parsing data and ability changes and the simple fact that many people did HM Ops while that content was relevant and when only an optimal build would allow success points to the fact that the majority went out of their way to use optimal builds because they knew it was necessary for progression.

 

Non-optimal builds typically included people taking a +3% endurance bump or healing gained in order to make the PvE solo experience easier on them. Surprise, most of the things people were using in non-optimal builds are now in Utilities. For example, the old lightening sorc Backlash which modified Static Barrier to erupt in a flash was not used in a PvE optimal build for raiders but I could see where someone doing dailies might want it...and now they can spec their Utilities to include it.

 

If you go to Noxxic and look through their optimal builds, you'll easily find that most of the abilities that weren't included in the optimal build are now in the 3.0 Utilities...in other words, you have more choice now than you ever, ever had before...unless you were playing a hybrid.

 

I used a hybrid build Sorc for running tactical FP's with guild mates, getting enough healing from Corruption and enough DPS from Lightening to be able to run the hybrid and 3 DPS and faceroll tacticals without worrying about using the healing nodes or waiting between pulls to heal.

 

While I never used it for level 55 PvP I did make good use of a similar set up in mid-level PvP where I had enough skill points to get far enough up both trees to matter. And there it was very powerful. It was hard to kill my normally squishy sorc and I knew and went against others who used a similar build. It had a balancing problem that no longer exists because it isnt' possible to do what I used to do.

 

Your choices now simply do not include hybrids and all the problems that came with them from a balancing point of view. You are stuck with a single AC that can be personalized for your play style through the use of utilities without actually making yourself sub-optimal just to get one special talent that makes your solo PvE life easier.

[Max_Killjoy]

So in other words you are doing content that is so easy that class balance issues don't come up. No wonder you don't have a clue about why hybrids were a bad thing in high-end content. You may not like the changes, but they were done for a good reason and they are not going to be reversed.

 

I was doing the content I enjoyed, without the assorted PITAs of large groups, using one "pure" build and one "mixed" build that both very worked well for that content. If that mixed build was so awful or so OP that it represented ruination for the game, there would have been a noticeable difference (one way or the other) between it and the "pure" builds that were tried at the same level for the same class, or between it and the purebuild character from another class.

 

We all know that for some reason it burns a certain type of players's butts and makes them all ragey inside whenever they're reminded that other players don't do hardcore endgame and PvP, and yet somehow still find enjoyment in the game... maybe that's the real reason they hate builds that aren't fixated on ultramaximizing endgame output.

[agamemnon-]

Why would you say it was an illusion?

 

Because there was never a choice.

 

Look at this:

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/sorcerer#12-1322100320122122221322-2000203

 

This is a build as posted on Duly. If I wanted to be of maximum use to my group, this is what I have to use. Builds on other websites are damned near similar (or exact). There is no deviation at all. I have no choice (at least, not if I wanted to do some meaningful end game content.

 

Now look at "Chain Shock." 2 points into a useless skill that I must put point into in order to go up. I have no choice in that matter; I must take on a useless filler. People say they used to have 51 choice. No you didn't. You had 51 skill points to spend. Not the same thing.

 

Another problem (something ignored by people here); you add more skill point you end up with more OP hybrids. Imagine a lightning, who is already procing Thundering Blast with Affliction, being able to increase said Affliction's damage with Death Field. Then using Force Lightning to proc Lightning Strike which has a chance to proc Chain Lightning. The only other solution would be to bump abilities further up the tree. Good luck playing a game where classes don't come into there own until you are about to do Dread Palace.

 

This is what Discipline streamlines;

[Max_Killjoy]

Because there was never a choice.

 

Look at this:

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/sorcerer#12-1322100320122122221322-2000203

 

This is a build as posted on Duly. If I wanted to be of maximum use to my group, this is what I have to use. Builds on other websites are damned near similar (or exact). There is no deviation at all. I have no choice (at least, not if I wanted to do some meaningful end game content.

 

Now look at "Chain Shock." 2 points into a useless skill that I must put point into in order to go up. I have no choice in that matter; I must take on a useless filler. People say they used to have 51 choice. No you didn't. You had 51 skill points to spend. Not the same thing.

 

Another problem (something ignored by people here); you add more skill point you end up with more OP hybrids. Imagine a lightning, who is already procing Thundering Blast with Affliction, being able to increase said Affliction's damage with Death Field. Then using Force Lightning to proc Lightning Strike which has a chance to proc Chain Lightning. The only other solution would be to bump abilities further up the tree. Good luck playing a game where classes don't come into there own until you are about to do Dread Palace.

 

This is what Discipline streamlines;

 

So as always this "choice is illusion" thing depends entirely on the assumption that a player must focus entirely on utilitarian mathematical optimization of the character for Ops and PvP, and that all other considerations are meaningless -- and this often comes with the unspoken (or spoken) addendum that any player who does otherwise is "bad".

[azudelphi]

I was doing the content I enjoyed, without the assorted PITAs of large groups, using one "pure" build and one "mixed" build that both very worked well for that content.

 

To be fair outside the stuff where you have a team, a monkey with a keyboard could have put together a seemingly viable build. That's no offense to you personally, that's merely stating that the content was easily cleared even if you were well below the min/max threshold; and by well below, we're talking 50-60% of optimal ouputs of a purebuild.

 

 

If that mixed build was so awful or so OP that it represented ruination for the game, there would have been a noticeable difference (one way or the other) between it and the "pure" builds that were tried at the same level for the same class, or between it and the purebuild character from another class.

 

It wasn't your specific build causing problems in terms of pure outputs. Now, it was your build that was causing problems with people tricking Arenas into thinking they were a dps when they were a healer. And yes, certain hybrids were doing more dps than expected; we've been over that fact for months now...

 

We all know that for some reason it burns a certain type of players's butts and makes them all ragey inside whenever they're reminded that other players don't do hardcore endgame and PvP, and yet somehow still find enjoyment in the game... maybe that's the real reason they hate builds that aren't fixated on ultramaximizing endgame output.

 

Actually, it has nothing to do with under-performing builds for most people. Actually, quite the opposite... it's the over-performing ones. Most people hate flavor of the month builds or borderline exploiting builds or min-max'd forced classes. It has nothing to do with hating what you do. Now, I think what does frustrate them is that your content, as jokingly forgiving as it is (Fact: Ops and PVP are designed to be toughest content in game), should not dictate the statistical balancing. So, when those of us with "ragey butts" see a system that allows frequent balancing of purebuilds at the expense of specs that are over-performing, we gladly say goodbye to the under-performing specs as well.

 

But really, I challenge you to step out of your comfort zone and try joining a stable ops team... you'll probably see why many of us have seen this as a positive.

 

 

Edit:

So as always this "choice is illusion" thing depends entirely on the assumption that a player must focus entirely on utilitarian mathematical optimization of the character for Ops and PvP, and that all other considerations are meaningless -- and this often comes with the unspoken (or spoken) addendum that any player who does otherwise is "bad".

 

The assumption is that the developers have to focus their balancing efforts entirely on utilitarian mathematical and statistical analysis for those players who do Ops and PVP while creating an environment outside that content where players aren't too under- or over-powered.

Edited December 16, 2014 by azudelphi

[agamemnon-]

So as always this "choice is illusion" thing depends entirely on the assumption that a player must focus entirely on utilitarian mathematical optimization of the character for Ops and PvP, and that all other considerations are meaningless -- and this often comes with the unspoken (or spoken) addendum that any player who does otherwise is "bad".

 

But, as always, you have ignored the parts about balancing.

 

Do you really think Bioware is going to balance a game around someone's enjoyment of a few abilities while doing dailies? They have stated it themselves; things are being balanced around Operations and PvP; how easy a class can clear content and how powerful a class is in PvP.

[Storroth]

Yeah, I hate it, the game seems more obnoxious, but I wont quit playing, i will simply soldier on till they either do something different or change it back, as it is, this new skill tree thing sux bigtime.

[Max_Killjoy]

The assumption is that the developers have to focus their balancing efforts entirely on utilitarian mathematical and statistical analysis for those players who do Ops and PVP while creating an environment outside that content where players aren't too under- or over-powered.

 

Which is a separate issue entirely from whether or not "choice was an illusion" under the old system. Prior to 3.0, one could focus on something other than raw mathematical utilitarianism, and instead on other priorities -- and for players with those other priorities, a broader range of choices was perfectly viable and valid.

 

They then also had a choice to avoid group content that their character was unsuited for (for whatever reason), but it seems that too many wanted to have their cake and eat it to.

 

Part of what makes this discussion so exasperating is that any attempt to bring those other priorities to light is either utterly ignored, or aggressively mocked.

[azudelphi]

Which is a separate issue entirely from whether or not "choice was an illusion" under the old system. Prior to 3.0, one could focus on something other than raw mathematical utilitarianism, and instead on other priorities -- and for players with those other priorities, a broader range of choices was perfectly viable and valid.

 

They then also had a choice to avoid group content that their character was unsuited for (for whatever reason), but it seems that too many wanted to have their cake and eat it to.

 

Part of what makes this discussion so exasperating is that any attempt to bring those other priorities to light is either utterly ignored, or aggressively mocked.

 

Because at the end of the day there is only one choice that warrants developer balancing time. "Is my choice of class for group content significantly more or less viable than another class?" If the answer is yes, there is a problem.

Edit: By "class" I do mean any given spec for a given role.

 

All other choices are second tier. It's not a mocking; if hybrids have an impact on how group play operates rather than the other way around, then there is a problem. Group play dictates the fate of hybrids. It may suck for those who don't engage in group play, but that is an unfortunate necessity so long as this game has vertical advancement.

Edited December 16, 2014 by azudelphi

[Khevar]

Part of what makes this discussion so exasperating is that any attempt to bring those other priorities to light is either utterly ignored, or aggressively mocked.

For what it's worth, I do understand why that is exasperating.

 

But on the flipside, it should be recognized that the ship has sailed. Disciplines have been implemented.

 

This entire subject would benefit from a new thread, which focused specifically on ways Disciplines could be improved to make your gameplay experience better. Granted, I do know that you have made some suggestions already, but they are buried under several tonnes of other posts.

 

Arguing about whether Disciplines is better than Trees, or vice-versa, has devolved into "I know you are but what am I" It has no benefit at this time.

 

/end soapbox

[agamemnon-]

Part of what makes this discussion so exasperating is that any attempt to bring those other priorities to light is either utterly ignored, or aggressively mocked.

 

To put it bluntly, your priorities (and hell, even my priorities) are irrelevant.

 

Bioware has stated that they believe people are dealing too much damage, healing too well, tanking too well and are thus clearing group PvE content too quickly and have balanced accordingly. Bioware has determined some classes are too mobile, not mobile enough, have too much utility, or not enough utility in PvP and have balanced accordingly (many of the changes I don't agree with). Bioware has long stated that hybrids are a balancing nightmare and that any attempt to balance against them causes a ripple effect of pure trees getting nerfed and have eliminated them.

 

Now, I am far from a Bioware defender (in fact I have received warnings before due to my rather "colorful" responses to "defenders of the faith"). However, I believe the switch to the Discipline system was needed. We were at the point that it was no longer viable to keep adding to the pool of available skill points (and bumping abilities and/or adding fluff skills was no longer a viable solution).

 

Hybrids were wrecking PvE content and PvP. Whether or not you were doing that doesn't matter; it was happening. Something had to be done and the discipline system was the cheap, easy fix.

Edited December 16, 2014 by agamemnon-

[LordArtemis]

Ok, I can answer the illusion part.

 

Generally speaking, the first three "levels" of skills in each tree were next to meaningless filler. They were mainly utilities (not all mind you, but many were) and designed that way on purpose.

 

So if you wanted actual useful skills, generally speaking you had to dedicate at least 15 points to pull past the first three levels...5 points in the first level, 5 points in the second level and 5 points in the third. You had 46 points total, and you were JUST starting to get actual skills in most cases.

 

This is very general mind you, there were exceptions, but it can be said that in almost every AC you had damage boosts, critical boosts, duration, damage reduction, cooldowns....that sort of thing in the first three levels.

 

So, here you are at level 24 - 25 before you start getting any meaningful skills for your AC at all. And in many of the cases you had to wait until level mid 30s before you started seeing role abilities.

 

ALL of this was generally done to prevent hybrids.

 

Hence the illusion of choice....if you wanted meaningful ACs (I would argue most did) you had to spend close to half your points just to get started, and more than half of the points to get anything that had a bite.

 

To build out your role you would need to spend anywhere from 30 - 35 points. When you were done you had a smattering of points to spend in other trees...usually just the first two levels. And that was if you skipped most of the fluff in the primary tree.

 

They forced you to either choose a build that did not fill a role, or go with a role and choose the talents they wanted you to choose.

 

And there is where the "illusion of choice" contention comes from.

 

All of this is very VERY general, and there are certainly plenty of exceptions. But this is the general gist.

 

You have lost one of three choices....you can still choose a role, and you can still refuse to choose an AC. But you can no longer choose an AC but not chose a role.

Edited December 16, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Max_Killjoy]

To put it bluntly, your priorities (and hell, even my priorities) are irrelevant.

 

Bioware has stated that they believe people are dealing too much damage, healing too well, tanking too well and are thus clearing group PvE content too quickly and have balanced accordingly. Bioware has determined some classes are too mobile, not mobile enough, have too much utility, or not enough utility in PvP and have balanced accordingly (many of the changes I don't agree with). Bioware has long stated that hybrids are a balancing nightmare and that any attempt to balance against them causes a ripple effect of pure trees getting nerfed and have eliminated them.

 

Now, I am far from a Bioware defender (in fact I have received warnings before due to my rather "colorful" responses to "defenders of the faith"). However, I believe the switch to the Discipline system was needed. We were at the point that it was no longer viable to keep adding to the pool of available skill points (and bumping abilities and/or adding fluff skills was no longer a viable solution).

 

Hybrids were wrecking PvE content and PvP. Whether or not you were doing that doesn't matter; it was happening. Something had to be done and the discipline system was the cheap, easy fix.

 

The death of the old skill trees, and the imposition of linear character progression with no choice with a string of unavoidable powers, aren't really a single issue.

 

The need for balance, and leaving room for those other priorities such as have been listed off, aren't mutually exclusive.

[agamemnon-]

The death of the old skill trees, and the imposition of linear character progression with no choice with a string of unavoidable powers, aren't really a single issue.

 

There is no such thing non-linear character progression in a WoW clone. Even hybrids require one to go up a specific path to achieve the goal of being hybrid.

 

The need for balance, and leaving room for those other priorities such as have been listed off, aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Yes they are as far as the end game is concerned.

 

The only priority in an MMO that has been out for more than a year is keeping people busy with end-game content (something Bioware learned the hard way). If other priorities are interfering with that, then something has to change. Bioware, using whatever metrics they use (and assuming they didn't listen to the QQ on the forums about them), determined hybrids were a balancing nightmare for both PvP and PvE).

 

An example I posted before:

 

Imagine a lightning, who is already procing Thundering Blast with Affliction, being able to increase said Affliction's damage with Death Field. Then using Force Lightning to proc Lightning Strike which has a chance to proc Chain Lightning. The only other solution would be to bump abilities further up the tree. Good luck playing a game where classes don't come into there own until you are about to do Dread Palace.

 

You, or even I, not doing end game content is irrelevant in that matter. There was no way to keep the skill trees and not have hybrids continue to be a rampant problem. Bioware isn't going care if all I do is Oricon and CZ-198 all day everyday. There priorities are whether or not a Engineer/Lethality Hybrid is running rampant in PvP, or if a Lightning/Madness hybrid is doing too much damage in an OP, or if a Darkness/Madness hybrid is able to tank and dps well at the same time.

 

Eliminating hybrids affects solo players; keeping them while adding to the pool of skill points to spend had the potential of further affecting the entire player base. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[Max_Killjoy]

It's like I'm saying something, and people are just hearing whatever they want to respond to instead -- or they're maybe just jumping in without the context of the previous pages and so entirely missing what's being said.

 

A) Stop falling back on a trite and tired false dichotomy. One can hate the Discipline system without demanding the return of the old tree system, and one can point out where the old system had an advantage without claiming it was flawless or should come back as-was. None of this is necessarily an argument to go back to the skill trees as they were -- just a rejection of the specific new system that Bioware came up with as a "solution".

 

B) Some possible different priorities that a player can have that aren't focused on raw mathematical utilitarianism:

 

1) Does this build fit the character concept? It's an RPG, not an FPS. The characters in an RPG are more than just game-mechanical constructs to be min-maxes, or pixel-meat avatars for some 12-year-old to squat on his fallen foe because he saw someone do it on YouTube. Spoon-feeding the player a design that doesn't really fit the character is a serious drawback, and that was less of a problem (can't say it wasn't at all a problem) in the old system.

 

2) Does this build result in a rotation the player is comfortable with using for hours on end, multiple times a week?

 

3) Does this build avoid game mechanics that the player finds aggravating or boring?

 

4) Does this build work well in the content the player is focused on?

 

5) and etc, I'm sure I'm forgetting several, maybe someone else can come offer up a few

 

C) because those other priorities exist, choice was only an "illusion" for those players whose priorities were of the raw mathematical / utilitarian bent -- and as much as they refuse to admit it, what makes the game fun for them is no more important, valid, or "objective" than what makes the game fun for someone else. It was even possible to focus on those other alternatives and have a functional, working character!

 

And, there's some irony to using "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" in support of a change that largely benefits the few who are dedicated endgame and/or PvP players. I know it stings, but the numbers (which I'm told never lie and are sacred, so...) bear out the fact that no matter how vocal they are, they're no the majority in the playerbase.

 

D) Linear vs non-linear progression: if the player is force-fed a single power, with no choices, every few levels, as opposed to having the choice between a dozen or more places he could go for every single level, that's hardly the same thing. Use whatever terminology you want if "linear vs non-linear" is tied up somewhere else in your personal lexicon, the point remains.

 

E) there is room in a system that has both balance and choice -- and please, don't respond yet again with reasons why the old system couldn't maintain its balance as the level cap went up, or whatever, because I'M NOT ARGUING FOR A RETURN TO THE EXACT SYSTEM WE HAD, WARTS AND ALL.

 

 

F) Sadly, all I really expect in response to any and all of this post is at best "that sucks, get used to it", and at worst some combination of "stop crying for your lost OP hybrid, L2P noob" and "but Disciplines are better because nothing but endgame/PvP matters".

Edited December 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[ShadowHntr]

I'm a lightning Sorc, but the only thing I miss that I think should have been included as a passive utility is the skill that makes Force LIGHTNING have no cool down.

[DanNV]

It's like I'm saying something, and people are just hearing whatever they want to respond to instead -- or they're maybe just jumping in without the context of the previous pages and so entirely missing what's being said.

 

No, people get what you're saying, they just don't agree. I personally like the new system much better than the old one and it seems that a lot of people do.

[Max_Killjoy]

No, people get what you're saying, they just don't agree.

 

I'd be more willing to entertain that possibility if they appeared to be responding to what I've actually posted on a more consistent basis.

 

Instead, they seem to skimming to see which "side" I'm supposed to be on, and then responding to that side...

Edited December 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy