Will raiding in MMOs one day be a thing of the past?

[TheSupaCoopa]

I personally think Raids should stay. They're enjoyable and a good test of how good a team player you are.

 

The main reason most people don't do raids is because they don't do anything but solo content. They don't even do Flashpoints. Those are our casuals.

 

Those who do Raids and FPs and unranked PvP are our cores. They're the guys who sustain the game.

 

Then we have our Nightmare mode raiders and Ranked PvPers. These are our hardcores.

 

These 3 types are essential to the game, and many players will change between the 3 occasionaly.

 

-Duran'del

[LordArtemis]

A good read, thanks for the replies guys.

 

As i said earlier, I think that end game will continue to evolve into something a bit more sustainable, and more friendly to casuals.

 

Modular raids that change quite often, depending on the time of month, factional war, or simply at random.

 

Ability to have NPCs aid in the run, either to fill gaps in the groups or allow single player runs at reduced rewards.

 

Moving away from the gear slot machine to something that gives all players a choice for gear, like tokens.

 

Designing more unique raids, ones that contain a number of goals and require teamwork instead of simply kill/loot/repeat and single boss battles.

 

Single player, story, hard and nightmare modes for every raid.

 

Use of current in game assets to provide unique raids of open world areas, cutting down on development time required.

 

Self scaling raids that either bolster or scale to your level.

 

 

Just some speculation on my part as to some of things we may see.

[Vhaegrant]

Well to be fair it's only the first article is a series that should run the week so a little early to make comments

 

A sweeping generalisation I would make is that the focus on raids in old school MMOs was to challenge the best of the best. You need this kind of draw to attract the masses. They may not play at that level but they will have aspirations to.

 

One of the biggest hurdles to overcome though is the sort of gametime required for that endgame commitment. To raid was nearly a full time job (or it felt like it, if you weren't in the raid you were harvesting mats for the crafters, or running other guildies through the access chains) So while a challenge it started to feel like a job. This take a big part of the fun out of it for many.

 

Stepped content causes issues with population. If you are in with the first rush and able to keep up you're ahead of the game, if you don't have the time and start to fall away you'll struggle to find those to play with. Another discouragement for entering into the mindset of raiding in the first place.

 

Even if you step up and make the effort to clear the content there is no guarantee you'll get the gear (okay, this is less of an issue now with things like non-class specific tokens dropped), the old days of rng could really put a spanner in the gears of enthusiasm when linked to the final factor.

 

If an MMO lives long enough and is successful enough it will raise the level cap, that action introduces higher tiers of gear from regular non-group activities and provides a pathway to bypass the previous gear acquisition. You know all those hours spent grinding for the ugly piece of kit with high stats... well you can get better stats from the greens that are being dropped. See how enthusiastic the audience remains

 

I like a challenge though.

 

It's nice to have challenge at all levels. I would love to see some challenge introduced to solo play. Not just consider the Operations (raids) to be the epitome of challenge.

 

In SWTOR I loved the two mini bosses that were introduced playing through the ROTHC expansion (well on the Imp side anyway, have to admit not played through on a rep yet). They had the sort of mechanics you'd find on a proper Ops boss, the game needs more of that sort of challenge to start breaking into the playing habits of the players.

 

If a player has to step away from the game to read a third party guide on how to beat a boss the game is doing it wrong.

 

Raids are here to stay, after all what's the point of playing an MMO if you don't have the large group content.

 

What really needs to be looked at seriously is how valuable having levels in the game is (in my view it introduces far more restrictions and problems than it solves), and why so much focus is placed on gear stats (a result of the levelling system)

 

If a game can embrace a level-less system you can start to open up the population of gamers across the whole content.

[Ubikface]

Raids would be more fun if it didn't take so long to actually get a group together. I don't have the time to sit around in fleet twiddling my thumbs waiting for the last 2 DPS or the 2nd tank/healer for a raid to show up or spam fleet chat for an hour just to get a raid started.

 

In short, the raid content itself is great, I like the difficulty of the fights and the feeling of being part of a big group taking on epic content. What I hate is the fact it takes nearly as long to get a group ready as it does to complete the raid, which I expect is a large part of the reason so few people raid on a regular basis.

[Savej]

I personally don't raid much and usually feel like I'm wasting my time when I do. But there needs to be something for groups/guilds to do and work towards. Most of my ideas involve far more elaborate game systems but Conquest was a nice first step.

[PanagosTsok]

 

 

Now, let's have a look at the upcoming expansion. What do we get there? Some story content for the prupose of leveling your toons up to new level cap. 2 new operations, 4 HM flashpoints and 2 new tactical flashpoints. On the other hand, how much PvP content is coming with SoR? Little to none? Unfortunately, the rate of releasing PvP content, e.g. new warzones or arenas, is even lower than the rate for PvE content. And BW has the numbers and they are most likely investing their money into the game according to these numbers. Therefore, I don't think raiding content will disappear from this game ever, because actually it seems to be the biggest branch in this game.

 

Sorry but i disagree. Five lvls of content +2 new planets is not just "Some story content for the prupose of leveling your toons up to new level cap." Maybe you as a raider see it that way, as all raiders see lvling as just a steping stone for them to reach lvl cap. Raiding is not the biggest branch of SWTOR, story is. As is the case with the game from it's very conception and frankly every other BW game out there. The 2 operations are just the repeatble content for AFTER you finish the storyline. And with this expansion they will also give an alternative solo way for casual players to finish said storyline, wich makes Ops even more absolete. So while i think that raids won't be going away from this game anytime soon (and why would they?), i strongly believe that storytelling will continue to be the main focus for BW.

Edited November 25, 2014 by PanagosTsok

[Chicktopus]

Looking at this developer Q&A might lend some interesting hints. Under the "Oricon Lessons" section we have this little titbit: "we always need to try and make sure there’s a solo way to experience the coolness, the main parts of the story, the story of SoR."

 

Make of that what you will.

[LordArtemis]

My boss has a saying, based on the saying for a boat....

 

"Raids are the deep holes in a game you throw money in to."

[Rithoma]

Sorry but i disagree. Five lvls of content +2 new planets is not just "Some story content for the prupose of leveling your toons up to new level cap." Maybe you as a raider see it that way, as all raiders see lvling as just a steping stone for them to reach lvl cap. Raiding is not the biggest branch of SWTOR, story is. As is the case with the game from it's very conception and frankly every other BW game out there. The 2 operations are just the repeatble content for AFTER you finish the storyline. And with this expansion they will also give an alternative solo way for casual players to finish said storyline, wich makes Ops even more absolete. So while i think that raids won't be going away from this game anytime soon (and why would they?), i strongly believe that storytelling will continue to be the main focus for BW.

 

First of all, on this page is a post from me about leveling from earlier today. Please, read it, to avoid any misunderstandings on my perception of story and leveling.

 

Also, as you said, the 2 operations are repeatable, which means people will do them for quite a while for the purpose of progression or just enjoyment and, probably most of all, to gear up their toons. And after the game being now almost 3 years, there will be quite a lot of toons waiting to be geared. So that is what will keep a lot of folks playing this game.

 

Of course, others just enjoy the story lines. But a story usually is a one time thing. Just have a look into the threads on 12x exp. A lot of people said they came back and/or gonna leave the game as soon as they have finishd the class stories. I'm not sure if these are the kind of people BW will rely on in the future. And (solo) story content has always served the purpose of leveling. If it's the original class stories or the Makeb story. And so will the story on the new planets serve the purpose of leveling. There is basically no story at max level, because it wouldn't serve any other purpose than watching cutscenes, except the little story arcs around flashpoints and operations of course. But again, that's a once per character thing.

 

The stories in this game are great. But they are not repeatable content. In order to keep people playing a MMO for a long period, repeatable content is essential. Raiding does serve this purpose and therefore, raiding will always be a part of this game.

 

EDIT: I know they said, they are gonna implement a way to experience all the story (including the one tied to flashpoints and operations) as solo missions. But I would be surprised if you could do them more than once per character as a solo mission.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Rithoma

[Genhidro]

Raid is a way to improve your character after you reach max level. Can't get more levels, so whats left is gear.

 

Years ago DDO added an alternative to raid, improve character when at cap. When you hit cap, you can "reincarnate".

 

When you reincarnate your character, you start at level 1. XP gone. You do keep money, gear and crafting skills. Whats really important is that you get so called "Past Life" feat. A perk, ability that makes you char a bit bigger. Lets say like some sort of legacy buff. Different class gets different Past Life perk. In SWTOR terms, ex-Sorcerer would get different perk then Sniper. Perk stack up to 3 times.

 

While you get something nice, Past Life perk, you are also cursed with XP penalty. You need to get more XP then "1st lifer". +50% for 2nd life, +100% for 3rd life.

 

OT: when DDO got this reincarnation, the number of raiders droped. But not to 0 (zero). Raids will not go away because, its a way to improve your character after you level to max. Player would also take alternatives, if they would exists.

[Jadescythe]

I don't understand the thought that casual players can't raid. The raiding in this game is so casual due to the inclusion of SM operations and group finder. You can easily click. You can easily do it with only 1 or 2 players who know the fights explaining them for a few minutes and no one else needs a mic, only sound. The mechanics are toned down so far that you can make many mistakes and easily clear the content. Gear you get from Oricon or via PvP can get you through most SM operation content.

 

SWTOR already found a formula to allow the casual player base to see the content they are spending time/money/resources on while still giving hardcore raiders content to clear as well.

[PanagosTsok]

First of all, on this page is a post from me about leveling from earlier today. Please, read it, to avoid any misunderstandings on my perception of story and leveling.

 

Also, as you said, the 2 operations are repeatable, which means people will do them for quite a while for the purpose of progression or just enjoyment and, probably most of all, to gear up their toons. And after the game being now almost 3 years, there will be quite a lot of toons waiting to be geared. So that is what will keep a lot of folks playing this game.

 

Of course, others just enjoy the story lines. But a story usually is a one time thing. Just have a look into the threads on 12x exp. A lot of people said they came back and/or gonna leave the game as soon as they have finishd the class stories. I'm not sure if these are the kind of people BW will rely on in the future. And (solo) story content has always served the purpose of leveling. If it's the original class stories or the Makeb story. And so will the story on the new planets serve the purpose of leveling. There is basically no story at max level, because it wouldn't serve any other purpose than watching cutscenes, except the little story arcs around flashpoints and operations of course. But again, that's a once per character thing.

 

The stories in this game are great. But they are not repeatable content. In order to keep people playing a MMO for a long period, repeatable content is essential. Raiding does serve this purpose and therefore, raiding will always be a part of this game.

 

EDIT: I know they said, they are gonna implement a way to experience all the story (including the one tied to flashpoints and operations) as solo missions. But I would be surprised if you could do them more than once per character as a solo mission.

While i agree with everything you said(and apologies if i mistook you for something else than what you are) my point is still is that this game's main focus is the story. Ofc Ops will never go away and they're the ones that will be bringing ppl back but BW themselves are marketing this game as having the story as it's main focus. Just see the the expansion's main selling point. What you see is "Story-driven expansion" and not "2 new Ops expansion". My argument wasn't about the case of Ops being important or not, rather than if they're the the No 1 priority or not. And in SoR case my point is even stronger since because you know...Revan. Ppl have loved this character since the KOTOR games and they want to see what's going to happen to him;)

Edited November 25, 2014 by PanagosTsok

[LordArtemis]

I would argue that 156 gear is more than sufficient for 99 percent of the PVE casual content in the game. And considering you do not have to step foot in one single flashpoint or operation to get 156 gear, Raiding is unnecessary for casual players to improve themselves to maximum potential based on playstyle.

 

Heck, I bet most players wear 148 crafted mods. This is why raiding is a small portion of the gaming community....it is not necessary to casual players. Casual players only progress high enough to the point where content reaches an ease level that is generally fun for most.

 

156 gear provides that. Dailies provide cash, farming and missions provide mats...no need to raid.

 

There is nothing wrong with group content, but one can speculate that most casual players are averse to group content.

Edited November 25, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Rithoma]

While i agree with everything you said(and apologies if i mistook you for something else than what you are) my point is still is that this game's main focus is the story. Ofc Ops will never go away and they're the ones that will be bringing ppl back but BW themselves are marketing this game as having the story as it's main focus. Just see the the expansion's main selling point. What you see is "Story-driven expansion" and not "2 new Ops expansion". My argument wasn't about the case of Ops being important or not, rather than if they're the the No 1 priority or not. And in SoR case my point is even stronger since because you know...Revan. Ppl have loved this character since the KOTOR games and they want to see what's going to happen to him;)

 

Okay, can we agree that both parts serve a certain purpose. Since the story part is certainly something that disinguishes this from other games this kind (although I haven't play any other yet),it is definitely a PR reason to draw people towards playing this game. For that the stories are probably more important than raiding. While most MMO's of this kind provide raids, having that much story content is rather unique in the MMO landscape. But to keep people in the game for long term subscriptions, repeatable content is probably more important.

 

Also, the author of the article in the OP argues that developing raid content is too expensive. I think the opposite is the case. You have a one time investment that serves for long term content. While developing story content (depending of the extent of it of course) probably isn't that much cheaper, it only serves for one time content. So in the long view, operations might be more important from an economic point of view.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Rithoma

[WSRB]

Dang... at work, on mobile, and not enough time to give a full response... I'll just give a quick response to the actual question of the OP:

 

Fully scripted encounters as we currently see them need to go bye bye: too much cost for content being used by a minority portion of the base. Furthermore, the progression funnel that pushes players into raiding also needs to go away: you're asking the majority of players to pay for content for a minority while also excluding the majority; that is a million types of stupid. Grouping should result in faster progress, not exclusive progress.

 

Developers need to start utilizing technology for instance scaling better: creating epic instances designed to scale to group size means that all your content is being designed forall players to play in the way that is most fun for them.

[TheSupaCoopa]

Looking at this developer Q&A might lend some interesting hints. Under the "Oricon Lessons" section we have this little titbit: "we always need to try and make sure there’s a solo way to experience the coolness, the main parts of the story, the story of SoR."

 

Make of that what you will.

I so believe they are going to add a solo version of the Raid and FA Flashpoints. The rewards, however, will probably be reduced a lot.

[jorill]

The only way they could make it anymore casual is if they let you bring companions or such. In order to do that they need to completely rewrite the dreadful companion ai in this game. As of now they wouldnt be able to execute the most basic group tactics such as not standing in aoe or target swapping to adds.

 

Operations are best done in guilds where you can have a scheduled time to run it. People keep mentioning waiting for like an hour creating a pug but that isnt the best way to do operations in this game. I personally wouldnt pug a raid because mechanics just play too much into it.

 

Furthering what artemis said you dont even need to do ops since you get the highest level comms from gf from doing flashpoints now and comm gear is more than fine for end game. The best solution i can come up for casuals that want to raid is to find a guild that is casual that does raids. They do exist as i am in one but not always easy to find.

 

i have no idea what the percentage is that do raiding here but i do know that there was an article about a month after destiny came out and 50 percent had at least tried there normal raid and about 20 percent did the hard raids. I think the numbers are significant enough to justify making content for it. At the very least it keeps some people subscribed while waiting for new story content

[TUXs]

No chance. MMOs need repeatable content, raids are exactly that. Remove the repeatable content and players go *poof*.

[JediQuaker]

Are you sure that the article was talking about "raids" specifically, or all endgame content? I realize that many SWTOR players use the term "raid" for any "operation", but the term "raid" , afaik, comes from WoW, where you actually get together in a group and "raid" an enemy camp*.

I can visualize "raiding" becoming less common, because it depends somewhat on the mechanics of the particular game, but I can't see high level endgame content going away any time soon.

 

*I played WoW for about 6 months, but I never did any raids. So I'm not sure if the camps you raided were full of NPCs, or if it was closer to a PvP thing.

 

Edit - I skimmed through the article and it seemed to be mostly referring to the WoW type raid, but also other content that requires many players (10+). Even in SWTOR there does seem to be a bit of a move away from 16-man OPs.

Edited November 25, 2014 by JediQuaker

[WSRB]

No chance. MMOs need repeatable content, raids are exactly that. Remove the repeatable content and players go *poof*.

 

Nobody is talking the removal of repeatable content: they're talking about the removal of the heavily scripted, large group oriented content that is built exclusively for a minority percentage of the population while also excluding the majority from meaningful endgame progression.

[Aussircaex]

Are you sure that the article was talking about "raids" specifically, or all endgame content? I realize that many SWTOR players use the term "raid" for any "operation", but the term "raid" , afaik, comes from WoW, where you actually get together in a group and "raid" an enemy camp*.

 

I intend no offense, but you are utterly, horridly wrong

 

The word "raid" predates WoW by many years; it was used in Everquest and earlier in MUDs. It has never referred to PvP activities, other than perhaps in the general real-life use of the term.

[Darth_Wicked]

I intend no offense, but you are utterly, horridly wrong

 

The word "raid" predates WoW by many years; it was used in Everquest and earlier in MUDs. It has never referred to PvP activities, other than perhaps in the general real-life use of the term.

 

You are mistaken.

 

Nothing ever existed before the WoW. Before the WoW, darkness reigned all over the world. The WoW brought light. The WoW brought hope. The WoW brought redemption.

 

All wail the WoW.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[TUXs]

Nobody is talking the removal of repeatable content: they're talking about the removal of the heavily scripted, large group oriented content that is built exclusively for a minority percentage of the population while also excluding the majority from meaningful endgame progression.

So...you think it should all be solo'able?! MMOs are still social games and I am a huge believer that large group content is a necessity for the masses.

 

Where I do see things that could change is how they're presented. Rather than 5 bosses in an instance that takes 2+ hours, make it 5 bosses that take 20min each. Half the problems with raids in SWTOR is the stupid lockout timers - if you weren't in at the start, you're kinda screwed. Making them all individual encounters would surely open it up to more players...but group content is still the norm I believe.

[WSRB]

So...you think it should all be solo'able?! MMOs are still social games and I am a huge believer that large group content is a necessity for the masses.

 

Where I do see things that could change is how they're presented. Rather than 5 bosses in an instance that takes 2+ hours, make it 5 bosses that take 20min each. Half the problems with raids in SWTOR is the stupid lockout timers - if you weren't in at the start, you're kinda screwed. Making them all individual encounters would surely open it up to more players...but group content is still the norm I believe.

Think content that scales like City of Heroes: scales to group size and player selected difficulty. Yes, that would mean that every instance would be solo'able, but every instance could also be a raid.

[LordArtemis]

So...you think it should all be solo'able?! MMOs are still social games and I am a huge believer that large group content is a necessity for the masses.

 

Where I do see things that could change is how they're presented. Rather than 5 bosses in an instance that takes 2+ hours, make it 5 bosses that take 20min each. Half the problems with raids in SWTOR is the stupid lockout timers - if you weren't in at the start, you're kinda screwed. Making them all individual encounters would surely open it up to more players...but group content is still the norm I believe.

 

That will still only appeal to hardcore players IMO. The majority of the market would remain uninterested.

 

Scaling content would likely have some appeal to casual players. KDY stands in evidence (though speculative).

Edited November 25, 2014 by LordArtemis