You know, it really is rude to pull if you're not the Tank.

[Khaleijo]

FPs are meant for groups and require at least a little bit of "playing as a team".

Coming from this point of view, in my opinion it is rude to pull before the tank , because it is disrespectful towards the other player to not let him do his job. If a DPS pulls it even makes it harder for the tank to fullfil his role properly.

 

But i consider it also disrespectful if the tank waits and waits and waits without a obvious reason. Or if the tank does anything else to make the role of his groupmembers harder. If you want to be careful or aren't as experienced with your role as you would need for a faster pace, just tell the group, so that they know why you are standing there and understand your doing.

Communication works wonders...

Only because you could tank as a DPS in a HC 50 FP that shouldn't mean that you have to tank there. It's just polite to let the tank do for what he queued.

 

Just don't expect people to play in exactly the same way as you do, there are a lot of playstyles that do work properly for achieving a goal. In a premade group you can choose your groupmates to match you expectations. Via GF you need to be more flexible and able to adapt, if you aren't, you shouldn't queue alone.

 

Eventually everyone in the group wants to have fun, so it should be possible for everyone to adapt their behaviour a little bit towards the others and find a pace everyone can live with or if that really isn't possible just leave instead of forcing your own playstyle on the others.

 

The thing that makes me wonder is, with the tank there are a lot less players who consider to just let him do things his way, but if for example the healer is the weak link, everyone is more careful, uses CDs or even offheals to help and supports him. Why not just work with the tank too? Why are so many players trying to force this role into a certain direction or even openly work against it instead of just support it and be finished as smoothly as possible?

[Grayseven]

Somehow this conversation turned from DPS that pull to tanks "taking too long".

 

Not one tank I've ever healed or dps'd for takes the earlier mentioned "5 minutes between pulls". The DPS acting like d-bags because the tank isn't moving fast enough to suit them aren't being asked to wait 5 minutes...they are being asked to wait while the rest of the group heals to full or tops off their resource pool, or being asked to wait a few seconds while something comes off cool down.

 

If a DPS can't be bothered to wait while the rest of the team is ready to go, then they don't deserve to run with that group and can enjoy a vote kick and wait another 20 minutes for a tank to queue for a flashpoint. Eventually, enough people will put these idiots on their ignore list to make their wait time longer.

 

Instead of being an impatient jerk, these players can wait a few seconds between pulls or they can roll a tank themselves and try to deal with other d-bags themselves to see how much they appreciate it.

 

If you don't tank, don't try to tell the tank what they need or how fast they need to go. If you think you are God's gift to tanking, then tank some FP's yourself.

[Halinalle]

Not one tank I've ever healed or dps'd for takes the earlier mentioned "5 minutes between pulls". The DPS acting like d-bags because the tank isn't moving fast enough to suit them aren't being asked to wait 5 minutes...they are being asked to wait while the rest of the group heals to full or tops off their resource pool, or being asked to wait a few seconds while something comes off cool down.

 

Exactly.

Sentinel/Guardian: But I lose all of my Focus!

Marauder/Juggernaut: But I lose all of my Rage!

Sentinel/Marauder: If I don't follow the rules I will never be able to join another group.

 

On other hand

Anni/Watchman/Vigi/Veng are all bad it. I regen resources way too fast to consume. Could be helpful if devs could fix that, maybe in next patch. No, "Don't read tooltips" isn't acceptable solution to this problem.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Halinalle

[Kirazy]

Somehow this conversation turned from DPS that pull to tanks "taking too long".

 

Not one tank I've ever healed or dps'd for takes the earlier mentioned "5 minutes between pulls". The DPS acting like d-bags because the tank isn't moving fast enough to suit them aren't being asked to wait 5 minutes...they are being asked to wait while the rest of the group heals to full or tops off their resource pool, or being asked to wait a few seconds while something comes off cool down.

 

If a DPS can't be bothered to wait while the rest of the team is ready to go, then they don't deserve to run with that group and can enjoy a vote kick and wait another 20 minutes for a tank to queue for a flashpoint. Eventually, enough people will put these idiots on their ignore list to make their wait time longer.

 

Instead of being an impatient jerk, these players can wait a few seconds between pulls or they can roll a tank themselves and try to deal with other d-bags themselves to see how much they appreciate it.

 

If you don't tank, don't try to tell the tank what they need or how fast they need to go. If you think you are God's gift to tanking, then tank some FP's yourself.

 

No, no, that's the thing, it's almost never necessary to use regen abilities after every pull. If you need to do that, you have bad resource management, or a bad healer, or both.

 

I say this as someone who does all three roles. ;P

 

When I tank I much prefer ENDLESS ENGAGE! Ditto when I'm the other two roles.

[Halinalle]

No, no, that's the thing, it's almost never necessary to use regen abilities after every pull. If you need to do that, you have bad resource management, or a bad healer, or both.

 

I say this as someone who does all three roles. ;P

 

When I tank I much prefer ENDLESS ENGAGE! Ditto when I'm the other two roles.

 

You do know that:

- Marauders/Sentinels have to stay at 10/10 at all times (joking if you didn't get it)

- Shadow/Assassin tanks don't have "you take damage, you regen" type of management like other tank classes. You also seem to lack the experience of Shadow/Assassin tanking. So, why not give it a try. It's very addictive.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Halinalle

[Dras_Keto]

No, no, that's the thing, it's almost never necessary to use regen abilities after every pull. If you need to do that, you have bad resource management, or a bad healer, or both.

 

I say this as someone who does all three roles. ;P

 

When I tank I much prefer ENDLESS ENGAGE! Ditto when I'm the other two roles.

 

I agree, if you are having to use the out of combat regen after every pull, your healer is very undergeared, pretty bad, or is completely lazy. Most add pulls can be handled quite easily without a healer, assuming people understand how to do their jobs and execute the pull properly. The healers job is to minimise downtime while clearing trash.

 

Unfortunately, Ive run into more than a few who think that the only time they should be healing me is when Im tanking a boss. Otherwise, they seem to think their job is to stand around and look pretty.

[Lindraskada]

i have an easy rule if im tanking or healing : if you pull it, you tank it, i wont taunt it /heal you

 

people die, then whine, then die, and either stop it or leave

[ItachiZaku]

Part of the "not overly speedy" tanking strat is so you have your CDs available. As a shadow tank, it means being able to stealth (to get shadow stacks and the out of stealth regen) but also force pull one of those 2 ranged dudes that don't get clipped by my massive AOEs.

 

When I'm on a jumper, or BH/Trooper, i'll try to snipe off those stray guys but never pull ahead of tank. Unless it is KDY, which is almost always a cluster.

[TUXs]

My initial thought was - "great, another ego inflated 'tank' who thinks he's more special than everyone else"...however...after reading your story, you are exactly right. You have every right to be upset with that player and you did the right thing by kicking him.

[AstralFire]

This.

 

It's not that difficult or at least they keep saying that. But for some reason they still avoid tanking.

 

Been a tank since beta. Being DPS is relatively new for me (Healer for most of WoW), but enjoying it.

 

Tanking flashpoints isn't that hard, and if the group is solid (DPS and healer both geared) but the tank is taking forever and doing a bad job of it, I will start pulling for him. Gotten the "you pull it, you tank it" response once for that, the healer told him to shut up because we didn't need to wait three minutes between last pull and tanking the boss repeatedly.

 

I also make special allowances for tanks that are new and trying to learn, but when I'm waiting on the tank heavily and they're not even making an effort to protect their healer, I want to start speeding things along.

 

Doesn't sound like that happened to OP though.

Edited October 27, 2014 by AstralFire

[Calsetes]

When I tank, I go a bit slow. I like to make sure the whole team's ready to rock before pulling the next group. That said, if someone was running ahead of the group, I'd try to save him - but the other guys who waited for me are a priority. Given the choice of saving the guy who ran ahead or the guys who stayed back, I'd pick the latter every time.

 

If they start griping because of how slow I'm going, I'd tell them if they want to run ahead and get moving faster, they can do things to make my job easier then. For example, if they're a Sentinel or Gunslinger and there's droids, find the largest Droid, mark him, and use their CC on him awhile. It takes a few seconds to fire off, it'll be one less enemy pounding on them and eventually me, and it keeps the group moving forward.

[JediQuaker]

TL;DR, just an angry rant from an unappreciated Guardian Tank..

I agree with you when it comes to someone who does this constantly, and particularly when rushing ahead. However, I have been in groups with people who take this too seriously. Sometimes, players can pull agro once or twice, by accident or inattention.

 

For example: A couple of times, particularly with my 180 geared toon, I've basically forgotten I was in a 55 HM and acted like it was a Tactical. Conversely, I've had tanks in a Tactical act like it's HM and complain about people not waiting for the tank, even though a tank isn't really even a necessity in a Tact.

 

So, as I say, complain about the guys who do it consistently (in HM), particularly if it's been pointed out, but otherwise, chill out.

[tharbison]

There are exceptions where a dps may be able to get away with pulling. It doesn't mean they should. I'd support changes that made it more difficult for dps classes to 'tank'. Maybe lower armor ratings or something that would discourage this behavior.

[AstralFire]

There are exceptions where a dps may be able to get away with pulling. It doesn't mean they should. I'd support changes that made it more difficult for dps classes to 'tank'. Maybe lower armor ratings or something that would discourage this behavior.

 

No, anything that lowers the importance of tanks in flashpoints is good. WoW and EQ had major tank prima donna syndrome; I am glad this game does not. It also made tank the only interesting role in dungeons until they diversified. The more the tank is responsible for handling everything, the harder the role becomes for new people, as well as increased bottlenecks.

 

The current setup allows for flexible offtanking, which I deeply enjoy - both as a tank and as a DPS.

 

Conversely, I am happy that this game gave tanks serious importance (when played well) in warzones. Compared to older MMOs in this genre, SWtOR's tanks are much more "balanced", while in early WoW they were the gods of PvE, forgettable appendices in PvP.

Edited October 27, 2014 by AstralFire

[tharbison]

I agree with you Astra, but at the same time, if the line between tank & dps becomes too fine, what's the point of rolling a tank? I mean really... if dps can 'tank', why bother with tank! It is a balancing act. Judging by the number of posts on this subject, I'd argue there needs to be more class distinction between the two.

[AstralFire]

I agree with you Astra, but at the same time, if the line between tank & dps becomes too fine, what's the point of rolling a tank? I mean really... if dps can 'tank', why bother with tank! It is a balancing act. Judging by the number of posts on this subject, I'd argue there needs to be more class distinction between the two.

 

You can only pull off tanking for the tank in content you seriously overgear, IMX. Remember, we're well past the gear level 55 HMs were made for - and even so, there's a very obvious difference in survivability between a 168 or 180 DPS and even a 156 tank. Any other situation, you're a temporary off-tank.

Edited October 27, 2014 by AstralFire

[MillionsKNives]

- Shadow/Assassin tanks don't have "you take damage, you regen" type of management like other tank classes. You also seem to lack the experience of Shadow/Assassin tanking. So, why not give it a try. It's very addictive.

 

What? Yes they do. Might want to look up Lightning Reflexes, it's right at the bottom of the tree. It might not be as significant, and they may not rely on it as much as the other tanks, but they do have it.

 

Part of the "not overly speedy" tanking strat is so you have your CDs available. As a shadow tank, it means being able to stealth (to get shadow stacks and the out of stealth regen) but also force pull one of those 2 ranged dudes that don't get clipped by my massive AOEs.

 

When I'm on a jumper, or BH/Trooper, i'll try to snipe off those stray guys but never pull ahead of tank. Unless it is KDY, which is almost always a cluster.

 

I don't think I've ever heard of any tank using the out of stealth regen. Sounds like a complete waste of a couple skill points. Also, force pull isn't necessary on most pulls. I certainly wouldn't hold a pull just to wait until it was ready, with a few exceptions of course. A quick tab and shock will do just fine in most situations where the group is spread out too much. That and a tank doesn't need to get every single mob for a pull to go correctly. It's the DPS job to kill the weaks and keep strays off of the healer.

 

 

Having played a significant portion of my game time on a tank I almost always let the tank pull first. However there have been a few times that I'd pull as a DPS or even a healer. Every so often I'll get a tank that just wants to stare down the mobs. Everyone's healed and at full energy, and it's not a big pull but he'll just be standing there waiting...for something. That's when I'll use a basic attack on one of the mobs to get things moving. I'll stand near him and won't pull any other attacks that he'd have to get aggro off of me, but sometimes a tank just needs a bit of a push.

 

I've had ops groups like that before too. Everyone's set, we're not waiting on anything but no one is doing anything. Give the boss a little love tap and everyone else leaps into action.

 

Edit: There's also just something about being on a sentinel that makes me want to leap in regardless of whether the tank is ready. I try not to do it and know that it's wrong, but something about it just screams "leap in and kick some a**". I admit I've done it a couple times before I was able to catch myself. I've never had that problem on any other character though. It's a weird experience.

Edited October 27, 2014 by MillionsKNives

[tharbison]

I still support greater distinction between classes. This is a trinity MMO after all.

 

As long as dps think they can 'get away with it' (pulling), they will. If they can predict with confidence that doing so will get them flattened like a pancake, they won't.

[Sorwen]

Friend was healer in a 2 man this weekend with a DPS that though he was a tank then called him a bad healer when aggroed everything.

 

Some people live in their own little world and they are never going to learn different.

[Grayseven]

No, no, that's the thing, it's almost never necessary to use regen abilities after every pull. If you need to do that, you have bad resource management, or a bad healer, or both.

 

I say this as someone who does all three roles. ;P

 

When I tank I much prefer ENDLESS ENGAGE! Ditto when I'm the other two roles.

 

Really? Because I know a lot of tanks and DPS that go hell bent for leather on trash mobs all the time in order to clear them out quick, often costing themselves resource in the process.

 

And even the previously mentioned 3 minutes between pulls is hyperbole in the extreme. At most, a dps might have to wait 10 or 15 seconds. It only feels like 3 minutes to impatient children who can't be bothered to play as a team.

[DarthKasadaRhur]

To the OP: Admittedly I have made this mistake on more than one occasion, sometimes deliberately, sometimes due to a stuck keyboard. I've only done one FP in the last 5 months, and that was Athiss last night (which I soloed) so I don't think your comment is addressed to me personally. However, I will take your advice to heart.

 

Cheers!

Edited October 27, 2014 by DarthKasadaRhur

[Reno_Tarshil]

Really? Because I know a lot of tanks and DPS that go hell bent for leather on trash mobs all the time in order to clear them out quick, often costing themselves resource in the process.

 

And even the previously mentioned 3 minutes between pulls is hyperbole in the extreme. At most, a dps might have to wait 10 or 15 seconds. It only feels like 3 minutes to impatient children who can't be bothered to play as a team.

 

Stop trying to make chain pulling sound so horrifying when it's not, sheesh...

[Deewe]

If they start griping because of how slow I'm going, I'd tell them if they want to run ahead and get moving faster, they can do things to make my job easier then. For example, if they're a Sentinel or Gunslinger and there's droids, find the largest Droid, mark him, and use their CC on him awhile. It takes a few seconds to fire off, it'll be one less enemy pounding on them and eventually me, and it keeps the group moving forward.

Love when playing with people that actually use their CC on mobs, it makes everything easier. I always let them do it and even encourage such practices. Also it makes them feel more valuable

 

And hate when DPS keeps breaking the CC especially when we where about to avoid a whole group of mobs.

 

Now the thing that kils me is when I drop roles tags on the floor to LOS and there's this guy standing in the middle. Then sometimes I got people suggesting better spots of ways to handle specific groups, always appreciated. Even learnt a trick from time to time on instances I ran hundreds of times.

[Gurv]

I think DPS pulling generally only offends tanks that are marginal. I think that for two reasons:

 

1.) If it happens it usually means you were pulling too slowly. Maybe that's because you thought you needed all of your cooldowns ready for a trash pull (you're marginal), or you thought you needed all four players stacked and ready to go to survive a pack of trash (you're marginal).

 

2.) Being offended by this may caused by a broader issue: you're not confident. I tank a 55HM every day and I know I'm good at it. If a DPS pulls I deal with it. It makes the pull more interesting, and I know what skills I need and the priority order I need to use to deal with the situation.

 

Now, both these things can be corrected by gear, skill, and attitude adjustments. The fact is that, for a fast-pulling tank like me, I almost never see DPS pull because I'm not boring them to death. If they do, though, I deal with it without doing the modern "I HAVE IDENTIFIED A REASON TO FEEL OFFENDED!" thing that is in vogue. If you legitimately want to avoid DPS pulling you can avoid 99% of it by pulling at a reasonable pace.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Gurv

[MillionsKNives]

I think DPS pulling generally only offends tanks that are marginal. I think that for two reasons:

 

1.) If it happens it usually means you were pulling too slowly. Maybe that's because you thought you needed all of your cooldowns ready for a trash pull (you're marginal), or you thought you needed all four players stacked and ready to go to survive a pack of trash (you're marginal).

 

2.) Being offended by this may caused by a broader issue: you're not confident. I tank a 55HM every day and I know I'm good at it. If a DPS pulls I deal with it. It makes the pull more interesting, and I know what skills I need and the priority order I need to use to deal with the situation.

 

Now, both these things can be corrected by gear, skill, and attitude adjustments. The fact is that, for a fast-pulling tank like me, I almost never see DPS pull because I'm not boring them to death. If they do, though, I deal with it without doing the modern "I HAVE IDENTIFIED A REASON TO FEEL OFFENDED!" thing that is in vogue. If you legitimately want to avoid DPS pulling you can avoid 99% of it by pulling at a reasonable pace.

 

You're giving the DPS far too much credit with this post. I've had a number of flashpoints where the DPS run ahead of the group and pull the next with little thought of anyone else. There's a difference between taking way too much time and not running at a complete breakneck pace. If I can't take the time to loot the corpse of the trash we just killed before the DPS pulls the next then it's not me being too slow.

 

I don't get "offended" when it happens, but I do get annoyed. And when the DPS annoys me by pulling first, I tend to let them play tank. I have no issue switching to my DPS stance and faffing around killing weaks while they deal with the rest of the group.

Edited October 27, 2014 by MillionsKNives