To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[Jnaathra]

That's not how development works.

 

They make an internal decision to re-write a portion of the game (for various reasons). The usable version of that system is on the PTS. By the time something hits the PTS it is set in stone and is only pulled out for extreme reasons (severe game breaking issues, delay to fix something, etc).

 

If you want to go play SWG there is the SWG EMU. Most of the systems are intact and you can spend your time there complaining it.

 

I will pass on the 1/10th working emulator that I have been fully aware of since its inception.

 

My original point is, it can be dangerous to make drastic changes before fully gauging how people are going to react. This is by no means NGE level, but it is nice when developers bounce things off those paying the bills (us).

 

I've seen plenty of MMO sink their own ship and SWTOR is by no means immune to similar folly.

[Jnaathra]

The point was that those who "hated it" probably never stuck around to actually learn the new system. They probably just had a knee jerk reaction and bailed before even giving it a chance, kinda like people who with disciplines even though the discipline system will be far superior to the skill tree system.

 

I stuck around for a good month after the NGE hit and I had been playing since release. It truly was a disaster. The proposed system changes for SWTOR are not even in the same ballpark. So while I wish the developers had brought us onboard earlier, I do not see it having any lasting effect like the NGE had.

 

You have to remember that SWG was an open system. It had 32 classes that you could mix and match as you saw fit. This allowed for some interesting creativity and builds. The NGE took those 32 classes and condensed them down to 9 classes in total. It even eliminated some classes completely from the game. Imagine that you had been playing a class for two years and that you loved it, imagine that a new expansion had just arrived that gave your class more content. Now two weeks after that expansion has gone live, they remove your class from the game. Thats just a taste of the epic failure that the NGE was.

 

Bioware will be fine.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Jnaathra

[errant_knight]

Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that.

 

That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game, I highly recommend you go read, and re-read the history of the NGE in SWG.

 

Keep in mind, while you have a larger group in SWTOR, you have many of the old SWG customers, and many of them this is fresh in their mind. You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for"

 

Here is an article where the President of SEO bemoans the utter stupidity of changing the game the way the NGE did: http://www.edge-online.com/news/star-wars-galaxies-changes-complete-and-utter-fail-says-soe-president/

 

If you are going to radically change the game this much, you need to be 100% absolutely fraking sure you are not going to enrage your customers and destroy the social network of the game by doing something that makes players leave the game.

 

Don't repeat history and piss off your current customers. If even a 1/4 of the customers dont like this system it will cause major problems for SWTOR.

 

We don't have enough facts to judge how this will work. Yeah, when I first saw it I had a bit of a DA:Origins-->DA2 concern. My biggest concern is that more abilities will be removed than willl be replaced or favorites taken out. Anytime Bioware has ever 'streamlined' something, it's equated to less fun for me, and that includes earllier changes to the combat in swtor, outside balancing. I'm not that happy that procs will be announced to us, either, but getting worked up before we've had a chance to try it is kind of pointless. And there's no reason the utilities can't work very well. It just depends on how this is implemented.

 

A note to SWG folks.... Many, perhaps even most of us, never played the game. If we know of the NGE, it's annecdotally. You can probably make your argument better without bringing SWG into it, or by assuming people don't know the details if you do. Ie. The above poster explained the issue nicely.

Edited October 17, 2014 by errant_knight

[Arkerus]

I will pass on the 1/10th working emulator that I have been fully aware of since its inception.

 

My original point is, it can be dangerous to make drastic changes before fully gauging how people are going to react. This is by no means NGE level, but it is nice when developers bounce things off those paying the bills (us).

 

I've seen plenty of MMO sink their own ship and SWTOR is by no means immune to similar folly.

 

No. There is no reason to bounce this off players as if we are project managers or developers. That isn't how it works. They gather feedback but they don't use us as consultants. Design by committee is a terrible, horrible, idea.

 

And the truth is, this is NOT a significant change. They are basically taking all the 100% talents and baking them into a standard tree. Then the player gets to make real play style choices.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Arkerus

[TUXs]

No. There is no reason to bounce this off players as if we are project managers or developers. That isn't how it works. They gather feedback but they don't use us as consultants. Design by committee is a terrible, horrible, idea.

Because why should Bioware ever give a **** what their customers think/want...right? Isn't that your standard stance? They ALWAYS know better than us and we're just lucky they keep this game running...right? It's not like they have any reason or need for us, their customers, so it's better if us dolts just keep our mouths shut and leave it all up to the professionals...right?

[Jnaathra]

No. There is no reason to bounce this off players as if we are project managers or developers. That isn't how it works. They gather feedback but they don't use us as consultants. Design by committee is a terrible, horrible, idea.

 

And the truth is, this is NOT a significant change. They are basically taking all the 100% talents and baking them into a standard tree. Then the player gets to make real play style choices.

 

Its basically just copying the WOW system, but hell all these games are very similar anyways. So why not. I just play the one with the lore wrapper that suits me.

 

I stand behind my original comment though. You have your opinion and I have mine.

[Max_Killjoy]

Because why should Bioware ever give a **** what their customers think/want...right? Isn't that your standard stance? They ALWAYS know better than us and we're just lucky they keep this game running...right? It's not like they have any reason or need for us, their customers, so it's better if us dolts just keep our mouths shut and leave it all up to the professionals...right?

 

I knew there had to be something we agreed on.

[Raansu]

Its basically just copying the WOW system, but hell all these games are very similar anyways. So why not. I just play the one with the lore wrapper that suits me.

 

I stand behind my original comment though. You have your opinion and I have mine.

 

I'd actually put it above WoW's skill system. Utilities gives it a bit of an edge over it imo. Well WoW has the glyphs I guess which is similar but I like the idea of utilities a bit more.

[branmakmuffin]

Because why should Bioware ever give a **** what their customers think/want...right? Isn't that your standard stance? They ALWAYS know better than us and we're just lucky they keep this game running...right? It's not like they have any reason or need for us, their customers, so it's better if us dolts just keep our mouths shut and leave it all up to the professionals...right?

If you don't like the game, vote with your feet and wallet.

[Zoom_VI]

It's not like they have any reason or need for us, their customers, so it's better if us dolts just keep our mouths shut and leave it all up to the professionals...right?

 

While it is in Bioware's interest and responsibility to satisfy customers it is also important to note that the players have a very small view of the picture, and often make suggestions/demands that if implemented would likely end up hurting the game.

 

Like many players ask "why do we have these credit sinks, its just ripping us off!" and they ask that because they either don't realize or refuse to realize the negative effects that would happen if credit sinks where removed.

 

We the players are effectively ignorant, we don't have training in the intricacies of game design, we don't have the metrics that the devs do, and most of us don't even know how to write programs in the first place. And that's before you start bringing in all the biases and agendas that players have.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Zoom_VI

[theUndead]

If you don't like the game, vote with your feet and wallet.

 

Going to have to disagree with you here Bran. TUX makes a valid point and belive me, he DOES enjoy the game. He is just critical of important issues and that is always necessary.