To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[Max_Killjoy]

Identity is more than just forcing you to look or behave a certain way. It's about creating a group of abilities which interact with and benefit from each other in interesting ways.

 

This is why hybrids were either overpowered or weak. The overpowered hybrids exploited situations where you could use points in other trees to amplify the bonuses beyond the designed ranges. All of the rest of the hybrids (including all of yours, it appears) lacked these interactions. You picked the flashy abilities that served some obvious purpose, but lacked the interactions that would make them truly effective.

 

While its far from a community favorite, Thundering Blast is a decent damaging ability. By itself, its not particularly impressive ability. Fine for leading off an attack, perhaps, but otherwise a bit of a pain. However, when you buff it with other high-tier abilities and set up all the rest of its interactions, it can get rather impressive. While I hate the idea of rotations, I'm all for skill combinations. The Aflliction-ThunderingBlast-ChainLightning is a great combo which hits for 8k-15k depending on your gear and level, with the bonus of lingering DoT and an area effect. Without all the tree abilities to support it, that combo will take twice as long, and hit for 30-50% less damage.

 

That's the sort of thing you're missing out on with your hybrids. You got the play style you wanted, but you aren't seeing that those abilities you have aren't living up to their potential. And since you're only interested in Leveling and Dailies, you don't really notice, because you have no reference for what it was designed to feel like. You don't want the high level abilities because they don't feel impressive, but it seems clear that you've never actually felt them work as designed, and you are happy to remain uneducated on that.

 

But in the end, the debate here isn't about your preferences. You are free to have your preferences. However, you're not entitled to demand that your preferences are preserved to the detriment of the vast majority of players. This isn't "burning the forest to kill a handful of trees". This is "killing a handful of trees before they burn down the forest". You, unfortunately, are a scraggly bush living in the middle of those trees.

 

As a side note, it's a lot of what I'd call "flashy" abilities that don't appeal to me. Quite often it's the passives that appeal more, really.

 

At first reaction I'd say that it's actually the need to chain them together that makes them less appealing, but I don't think that would be true, given how very much I like the almost-pure Arsenal Merc build I use on my 55 BH.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Raansu]

As a side note, it's a lot of what I'd call "flashy" abilities that don't appeal to me. Quite often it's the passives that appeal more, really.

 

At first reaction I'd say that it's actually the need to chain them together that makes them less appealing, but I don't think that would be true, given how very much I like the almost-pure Arsenal Merc build I use on my 55 BH.

 

Not picking up heat seeker missiles is a HUGE mistake....

[azudelphi]

Not picking up heat seeker missiles is a HUGE mistake....

 

As a Gunnery Commando (mirror of the class and ability), I agree completely with this statement.

 

There is literally no rational reason to skip it; keyword rational... as in, not emotional.

[Max_Killjoy]

Not picking up heat seeker missiles is a HUGE mistake....

 

I *LOVE* that tree, and my 55 ars merc has Heatseekers. Other than Improved Vents and Advanced Targeting, nothing else from outside Arsenal is vital to how I have that character built (6/37/3).

[azudelphi]

I *LOVE* that tree, and my 55 ars merc has Heatseekers. Other than Improved Vents and Advanced Targeting, nothing else from outside Arsenal is vital to how I have that character built (6/37/3).

 

Can of worms here... how do you have 37 points in the middle tree?

[Zoom_VI]

I *LOVE* that tree, and my 55 ars merc has Heatseekers. Other than Improved Vents and Advanced Targeting, nothing else from outside Arsenal is vital to how I have that character built (6/37/3).

[offtopic]

 

To be fair even if you didn't like heatseekers you would still be taking them. I did a lot of work with commando/merc hybrids after 2.0 dropped, mostly do to the allure of being able to pick up Gunnery's Full Auto proc, and Pyro's Railshot proc at the same time.

 

However I quickly released that the devs where more devious than expected in that even with both those talents available, it wasn't possible to get the rotation to work, the ability and proc cooldowns of the two trees where completely out of sync and the ammo management was a nightmare.

 

[/offtopic]

[Max_Killjoy]

Can of worms here... how do you have 37 points in the middle tree?

 

I'm doing that from memory mainly, apologies if I borked the exact number, I don't want to start a dumpster fire over a point or two...

[azudelphi]

I'm doing that from memory mainly, apologies if I borked the exact number, I don't want to start a dumpster fire over a point or two...

 

Fair enough.

[Zoom_VI]

Can of worms here... how do you have 37 points in the middle tree?

 

Why can't he? There no rule stating that you cannot spec more points into the tree beyond what is necessary for the top talent. Heck if I recall correctly carnage marauders in PvP at least take almost 40 points in the carnage tree, Veng is the same way.

[azudelphi]

Why can't he? There no rule stating that you cannot spec more points into the tree beyond what is necessary for the top talent. Heck if I recall correctly carnage marauders in PvP at least take almost 40 points in the carnage tree, Veng is the same way.

 

Oh no, it wasn't that he can't have more... I just don't know where'd they'd go was all. After the primary 36 are spent, not sure where you'd put a singular wayward point... the remaining skills are ones requiring 2 points to get the total bonus. So it was just a curiosity, not a condemnation.

Edited October 16, 2014 by azudelphi

[Max_Killjoy]

OK, here's the Merc build, I think.

 

(The point in Stabilizers kinda bounces around, I'm never sure what to do with that one...it's been in System Calibrations and Critical Reaction too...)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[azudelphi]

OK, here's the Merc build, I think.

 

(The point in Stabilizers kinda bounces around, I'm never sure what to do with that one...it's been in System Calibrations and Critical Reaction too...)

 

Generally speaking I use these specs:

Arsenal / Gunnery w/ Enemy Pushback Mitigation

Arsenal / Gunnery Max Damage

Arsenal / Gunnery - Enemy has Powerful Tech/Force Attack

Pyrotech Single Target Max Damage

Pyrotech Single Target w/ Enemy Pushback Mitigation

 

Edit: And this is the potentially great thing about the Disciplines / Utility system. As of right now, based on mechanics I reset my entire skill tree to grab a particular ability. For example, that 3rd spec where I grab the ability to mitigate a single Force / Tech attack. If that's made a Utility, I can reset my Utilities and grab that while still in Assault Spec. Basically, I can reduce my 5 modified specs down to just being 2 specs and changing my utilities rapidly. Personally, that has a ton of appeal.

Edited October 16, 2014 by azudelphi

[Delta_V]

Generally speaking I use these specs:

Arsenal / Gunnery w/ Enemy Pushback Mitigation

Arsenal / Gunnery Max Damage

Arsenal / Gunnery - Enemy has Powerful Tech/Force Attack

Pyrotech Single Target Max Damage

Pyrotech Single Target w/ Enemy Pushback Mitigation

 

Edit: And this is the potentially great thing about the Disciplines / Utility system. As of right now, based on mechanics I reset my entire skill tree to grab a particular ability. For example, that 3rd spec where I grab the ability to mitigate a single Force / Tech attack. If that's made a Utility, I can reset my Utilities and grab that while still in Assault Spec. Basically, I can reduce my 5 modified specs down to just being 2 specs and changing my utilities rapidly. Personally, that has a ton of appeal.

 

Yeah, only having to assign 7 points instead of 46 (or 51 at level 60) will make switching between fights much easier. On my Sentinel, I usually run Watchman spec, but I have two variants depending on the fight. 36/8/2 is the max dps version, with 2% Force Crit in the Focus Tree, while 36/10/0 sacrifices that for the 30% AOE damage reduction in Combat so my healers don't hate me on AOE-heavy fights. Currently, respeccing is a pain because I have to reassign my *entire* Watchman tree just to switch two freaking points in the other trees. Only having to reassign the 7 utility talents will be much less annoying.

[MaximusRex]

That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game.

 

Oh, NGE threads are my favorite MMO theme. Every patch with a big change in every MMO since the GS has been called that game NGE, yet somehow it has never come to past. NGE preditions are about as accurate as those Biblical End Times predictions have been. I wish I could see into the future, because I wonder if 2000 years form now people with still be predicting the second coming of the NGE.

 

I like how you preemptively strawman anyone who disagrees with you as well.

 

Anyhow, the Discipline system is actually smartening up the system, not dumbing it down. The current system is very set and forget, while the Discipline system make you think about what abilities you want to enhance and if you might want to change which ones you are enhancing based on the fight.

[Kissakias]

LordA is spot on here. The NGE eliminated MBH/CM4000, etc, etc (as well as entire professions). We don't have that here; you can naturally be a healing bounty hunter. But what you can't be is a Bounty Hunter/Operative. The "choice" argument is flimsy at best.

 

Are there *some* players out there who have taken the time to perfect a hybrid build within their Advanced Class? Sure. But the overwhelming majority are "straight ticket" with a splattering of left-over points assigned to the same skill boxes as nearly everyone else in their AC.

 

I played SWG from start to finish. By early 2005 (a year after the CU hit), the game was already hemorrhaging subs to WoW. What most of the old vets who quit when the NGE hit never got to know was the SWG of 2007-2011 was far better than the SWG of 2003-2005. Did we all miss the 32 professions? Sure, but can you attempt to imagine the nightmare of balancing a game with 25 or so combat classes and viable hybrids amongst most of those? But those of us who stayed, got over it and relearned to play the game, and participate in the community that we enjoyed.

 

This game is NOT SWG and up until about 6 weeks ago, never attempted to do anything SWG related.

 

Go play any of these, but start with a pre-CU Emulator. Then come back and tell us if SWG in it's original form was the game that you remember.

 

http://www.swgemu.com/forums/index.php

http://www.galaxiesreborn.com/

http://www.swganh.com/

http://www.projectswg.com/cmps_index.php

 

forgot to say that Jedis pre-CU and pre-NGE were in god mode, so no reason to have other classes, all at end hunt the jedi holocron with safe mode.

[Jnaathra]

I certainly understand where he is coming from. They probably should have tested the new skill system on the PTS before declaring they were going to implement it fully.

 

Honestly, if SWG was still around. I would still be playing it. It was a much deeper system overall (till the NGE).

[hadoken]

forgot to say that Jedis pre-CU and pre-NGE were in god mode, so no reason to have other classes, all at end hunt the jedi holocron with safe mode.

 

That's not really accurate. There was a brief window where they were really powerful (though still able to be killed) before they were turned into 'just another class' like this game. Before the patch that gave them really powerful abilities along with actual robes (instead of forcing them to wear armor like everyone else) they were really strong...at running away. They were incredibly weak offensively. While it's true they couldn't be killed easily, they also couldn't kill anything easily (and unlike normal people when they died it was over - hence running away).

Edited October 17, 2014 by hadoken

[Arkerus]

I certainly understand where he is coming from. They probably should have tested the new skill system on the PTS before declaring they were going to implement it fully.

 

Honestly, if SWG was still around. I would still be playing it. It was a much deeper system overall (till the NGE).

 

That's not how development works.

 

They make an internal decision to re-write a portion of the game (for various reasons). The usable version of that system is on the PTS. By the time something hits the PTS it is set in stone and is only pulled out for extreme reasons (severe game breaking issues, delay to fix something, etc).

 

If you want to go play SWG there is the SWG EMU. Most of the systems are intact and you can spend your time there complaining it.

[Raansu]

Its funny. I always hear people complain about NGE, but when I talk to the ones who stuck it out they all say NGE was far superior to the original SWG. Then again I think both parties have rose colored glasses.

[MigSebes]

This is nothing like the NGE. In SWG before the NGE there was almost total freedom on what you could do and a lot of choices on what you could be, which was pretty much whatever you wanted to be. Here they are just taking a restrained system and making it different, still the same system, just more balanced. People who compare this to the NGE obviously haven't played Pre-NGE/NGE...

[hadoken]

Its funny. I always hear people complain about NGE, but when I talk to the ones who stuck it out they all say NGE was far superior to the original SWG. Then again I think both parties have rose colored glasses.

 

Of course they did, they'd be insane to say they kept playing when they hated it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Of course they did, they'd be insane to say they kept playing when they hated it.

 

That the ones who hated it left, and the ones who loved it stayed, should not surprise anyone, and is a lot more likely than "Well, they should have stuck around, they'd have loved it!"

[Raansu]

Of course they did, they'd be insane to say they kept playing when they hated it.

 

The point was that those who "hated it" probably never stuck around to actually learn the new system. They probably just had a knee jerk reaction and bailed before even giving it a chance, kinda like people who with disciplines even though the discipline system will be far superior to the skill tree system.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Raansu

[hadoken]

The point was that those who "hated it" probably never stuck around to actually learn the new system. They probably just had a knee jerk reaction and bailed before even giving it a chance, kinda like people who with disciplines even though the discipline system will be far superior to the skill tree system.

 

Some did I'm sure, I was not one of them. I stuck around and played it out a bit but realized it was not for me before quitting. It was not a better game. The truth was the game would NEVER have the marketshare that WOW did, which is something that SOE just did not learn in the end. They tried (and failed) to paste one broken system on top of another.

 

Disciplines really is a completely different animal, and I wish people would stop comparing it to the NGE change. It isn't even like the CU change.

[TUXs]

Disciplines really is a completely different animal, and I wish people would stop comparing it to the NGE change. It isn't even like the CU change.

^^THIS^^ Disciplines is like the CU, not the NGE. Even comparing it to the CU is absurd tbh...

 

NGE turned SWG into a first person shooter style game vs. a tab targeting MMO. Disciplines isn't even remotely like the NGE was...not even a tiny bit.