To the Devs working on Disciplines: Remember the NGE?

[fujeo-finell]

Ok, so I went to youtube and searched for "SWTOR Disciplines". At first, like you, I was worried they would screw things up. After seeing it all explained(they actually show it and how it works), I'm excited about it.

 

Now the problem I see, is it might be too complicated for a large percentage of the SWTOR player base. To reference your SWG/NGE story, the NGE was a complete dumbing down of the game. The difference here is SWTOR from the start is even more dumbed down than the NGE was. Still, in chat, it seems many SWTOR players have a difficult time figuring out simple things, like how to use the map to find what they're looking for or where to go, where/how to spend skill points, how to craft, so on.

 

I think the Discipline system is going to be painful for those that can't figure how to logically spend skill points in the current system. Personally, I love the idea of being able to pick up the ability to cast my high damage attack while on the move...lol

 

Dude, there's nothing to figure out. You don't spend skill points, it's all done for you. Utility points don't matter because they don't add to your output or rotation. You can pick whatever utility talents you want and not be concerned with screwing up your spec.

[pquadro]

NGE was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines remove hybrids and the illusion of choice.

 

Completely different scale bud!

 

 

Yeah, I was there when NGE happened

 

Not at all concerned about disciplines

 

It will be great

[Arkerus]

Kind of funny anyone even considers this anything like the NGE.

 

Seriously. How can anyone even make the comparison?

[Darth_Wicked]

Kind of funny anyone even considers this anything like the NGE.

 

Seriously. How can anyone even make the comparison?

 

Mandatory SWG-related threads quota.

 

Can't miss it.

[ivanhedgehog]

Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that.

 

That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game, I highly recommend you go read, and re-read the history of the NGE in SWG.

 

Keep in mind, while you have a larger group in SWTOR, you have many of the old SWG customers, and many of them this is fresh in their mind. You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for"

 

Here is an article where the President of SEO bemoans the utter stupidity of changing the game the way the NGE did: http://www.edge-online.com/news/star-wars-galaxies-changes-complete-and-utter-fail-says-soe-president/

 

If you are going to radically change the game this much, you need to be 100% absolutely fraking sure you are not going to enrage your customers and destroy the social network of the game by doing something that makes players leave the game.

 

Don't repeat history and piss off your current customers. If even a 1/4 of the customers dont like this system it will cause major problems for SWTOR.

 

I am not a fanboy, troll, cult follower, biowhore(you missed some) or anything like that. I have been very critical of BW most of the time. any time someone uses "dumbed down" they should get a boot to the head. hard. you act like there is some exacting science to makeing the perfect sekret build that will allow you to conquer the galaxy, most people playing the game used a guide like dulphy or some such to get a build. there arent that many possible combinations due to restrictions within the tree process. this change is I think for the better, but we will see. they are not cutting skill tree PHD's out of the equation, this is a relatively small change that was going to happen one way or another. I feel they are making the process less of a headache. Well done Bio Ware! that may be the first time Ive said that...hope the trend continues.

[Sarfux]

This is 100 percent completely different and actually adds to the game with great improvements so in the future level caps and skill raises are easier to do so we get content at a faster pace. This is just the start of new and improved things in core game play areas.

 

Not even close to NGE.

[Suromir]

To the people that keep comparing SWTOR to Galaxies: They're NOTHING ALIKE.

 

seriously..stop this stupidity.

 

What they're doing is like what Blizzard did in WoW after WotLK and into Cata...

 

the NGE was a COMPLETE CHANGE...

 

this is NOTHING like that....to try and compare them and give some "warning" is just plain asinine.

[robertthebard]

Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that.

 

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and just stopped here. So, anyone that disagrees with you has no valid argument, and are either trolls, fanboys or cult followers. Was there anything of value in your post after this? Because quite frankly, this is where I stopped reading.

[LordArtemis]

Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that.

 

That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game, I highly recommend you go read, and re-read the history of the NGE in SWG.

 

Keep in mind, while you have a larger group in SWTOR, you have many of the old SWG customers, and many of them this is fresh in their mind. You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for"

 

Here is an article where the President of SEO bemoans the utter stupidity of changing the game the way the NGE did: http://www.edge-online.com/news/star-wars-galaxies-changes-complete-and-utter-fail-says-soe-president/

 

If you are going to radically change the game this much, you need to be 100% absolutely fraking sure you are not going to enrage your customers and destroy the social network of the game by doing something that makes players leave the game.

 

Don't repeat history and piss off your current customers. If even a 1/4 of the customers dont like this system it will cause major problems for SWTOR.

 

I dont think it is unwise to express caution. The NGE is the gold standard of what NOT to do with an MMO.

 

The NGE changed quite a bit more than the ability system however. And to be fair, this system in place has more in common with WoW than it does with SWG...it is not even close to the kind of customization that could be had in SWG when it came to abilities and professions.

 

So, its not really like going from 100 miles an hour to a dead stop, its more like backing slowly into a wall. It's a substantial change, but the current system didnt offer that much customization ability anyway, most CERTAINLY not as much as SWG pre-CU/NGE.

 

So personally I dont think this qualifies as an NGE moment.

[OddballEasyEight]

NGE was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines remove hybrids and the illusion of choice.

 

Completely different scale bud!

 

This... worth repeating.

[Wasabi]

Dude, there's nothing to figure out. You don't spend skill points, it's all done for you. Utility points don't matter because they don't add to your output or rotation. You can pick whatever utility talents you want and not be concerned with screwing up your spec.

 

Not entirely correct. You'll get a total of 7 utility points. You have to spend 5 of those points in the top two tiers before you can spend points(max of 2 points) in the heroic tier. How you spend your 7 points, specifically the last two, can most certainly add to your output and enhance your rotation. See comment "casting while on the move".

 

Also, how you spend the 5 points in the other two tiers can enhance other abilities that will also add to your output and/or defense. Watch the official SWTOR Disciplines vid.

 

The system we have now is stupid simple if people just fully read the descriptions for the skill blocks and see how certain things from one tree go hand and hand with what you are building on in your main tree.

 

Yes, I know from the devs video on how Disciplines work, it theoretically will be easier and should be cut and dry, but just wait. There will be the same comments, questions, and arguments(on op classes) we have now "why can so and so of the same class do so much more damage than me?", "why am I getting totally owned?", "such and such class is too op, nerf it please!", "they obviously need to balance the classes, because I fail to understand how a certain class can destroy me and I don't understand my class well enough to defend against what's happening to me." because they won't read through everything to fully understand how to use only 7 points to effectively enhance their chosen discipline.

 

I mean seriously, people can't even do the simple things in game like use interrupts and taunts, or notice when an objective is in trouble(WZ's/Arenas) without someone calling it out. Hell, 90%(exaggeration) still haven't figured out how to use world map to find what they are looking for on fleet or better yet, how to use the GTN to buy/sell things.

[CelCawdro]

Hyperbole can make any argument look foolish.

[fujeo-finell]

Not entirely correct. You'll get a total of 7 utility points. You have to spend 5 of those points in the top two tiers before you can spend points(max of 2 points) in the heroic tier. How you spend your 7 points, specifically the last two, can most certainly add to your output and enhance your rotation. See comment "casting while on the move".

 

Also, how you spend the 5 points in the other two tiers can enhance other abilities that will also add to your output and/or defense. Watch the official SWTOR Disciplines vid.

 

Only two of the Sorcerer utility talents increase damage, and both of them are in the Skillful tier. Every single other utility talent is designed to cater to your own personal playstyle, and none of them increase your output. Balance wise it doesn't matter which of these talents you take.

 

Yes, I know from the devs video on how Disciplines work, it theoretically will be easier and should be cut and dry, but just wait. There will be the same comments, questions, and arguments(on op classes) we have now "why can so and so of the same class do so much more damage than me?", "why am I getting totally owned?", "such and such class is too op, nerf it please!", "they obviously need to balance the classes, because I fail to understand how a certain class can destroy me and I don't understand my class well enough to defend against what's happening to me." because they won't read through everything to fully understand how to use only 7 points to effectively enhance their chosen discipline.

 

You think people are going to have a harder time with Disciplines than they will with the current system? Seriously? As I said before, there's nothing to work out, it's all done for you.

Edited October 15, 2014 by fujeo-finell

[TheCardinal]

You think they don't know this already? Like they just do these things on a whim or something?

 

They've thought this through. The least we can do is give it a chance before rioting.

 

 

You sure about what you just said ?.

 

NGE removed ALL choices a player had to be different.

This will do the excact same thing, different name tho.

 

Devs know, SoE said the same, the PLAYER BASE wanted this, 2/3rds left the game over it, so did we ask for it, NO.

 

To remove a players free will to make a char he/she like to play in the name of balance or it is easier for us, or the most lame reason I've heard so far, the player base want this change don't stick.

 

There is no difference here and NGE, they both change HOW the game is played.

 

I played SWG since pre-cu, CU, NGE. right until the end of the game. I know what happend.

 

NGE did so much more then SWTOR is planing to do, but most of what NGE did to SWG we already have here, IE. Nothing never truly breaks.

 

SoE's CEO admitted that the NGE was Epic fail and the one thing he wish he could made undone if given the chance.

 

They are walking a very fine line here, we that oppose this have a choice too, and that leave.

I for one PAY to play this game, I've done that since I did BETA testing.

 

I for one will NOT pay to play a game that ruin how I like to play, skill tree's been in since start, now they feel like change it, fine, don't do NOT expect me to go along and keep paying for it.

 

NGE's other major fault was, WE diden't know until a few weeks before it came same here......

 

One person said back then, Jedi will be starter profession, we all had a blast..... Your NUTS we all said.....

We where proven wrong...... and with that the game died.

 

Changes ablit can be good, migtht not be, and to change something that does "work" in the name of the holy elusive graal, well.... WE all know how that ended up.

 

So, do remember NGE, not for what it is, but for what it DID.

[CelCawdro]

Except in SW:G, you actually could have viable hybrid builds. You can't, here. They're either under- or overpowered, thus ignored or nerfed. Skill trees were simply an illusion that hearkened back to days that no longer exist. The only reason to keep them is nostalgia, but you cannot balance emotion.

[BuriDogshin]

They are walking a very fine line here, we that oppose this have a choice too, and that leave.

Can you do me a favor and leave before giving the new system a chance?

Thanks, I'd appreciate it.

 

Oh, and can I haz all your stuff if you do?

[LordArtemis]

The current system is not free will. I can't stress this enough. It is only a pretty poor illusion of free will, as it always has been in every single game that used this pathetic nightmare called the ability tree. I didn't think it could be worse, but Bioware found a way to make it so....lets put a class in a class and THEN have more trees with one rule set.

 

Yea, that will not cause any balance problems.

 

It's like hitting myself in the head with a hammer to get rid of a headache.

 

The new system proposed at least removes this ridiculous illusion and provides the proper progression like most sane games....if you don't have choice, don't pretend to have choice.

 

I can live with this lack of choice because I have lived with a lack of choice for years now. At least now it's no longer an illusion. It is what it always has been...you get the skills they want to give you, period, and they will throw you a few token bones so you can at least have some variety in your choice.

 

But not much.

Edited October 15, 2014 by LordArtemis

[theUndead]

Oh please this has NOTHING To do with the NGE. That was a complete overhaul of a entire combat system from one way to another. This system does not change anything other than removing hybrids. But the core system remains the same.

 

Get your facts straight and actually wait and see what happens.

[LordArtemis]

...not to mention the fact that SWG had one of the most flexible setups when it came to professions and abilities, and offered real choice in your build. And they went from that system to a system that had no choice whatsoever, other than the class naturally.

 

It was one extreme to the other. This system here doesn't even come close to comparing the the choice that existed in SWG pre-CU/NGE.

[TheCardinal]

Can you do me a favor and leave before giving the new system a chance?

Thanks, I'd appreciate it.

 

Oh, and can I haz all your stuff if you do?

 

Ofc you can, just pay me for all the REAL money I've spent on this game and pay me back the pre-order cost and it's all yours.

 

Stupied posts like I think yours is don't belong here since you do not offer any opinion except for a single player that would be me, but you have my offer above here and NEXT time, post something usefull or not at all.

 

Regards.

[TheCardinal]

Oh please this has NOTHING To do with the NGE. That was a complete overhaul of a entire combat system from one way to another. This system does not change anything other than removing hybrids. But the core system remains the same.

 

Get your facts straight and actually wait and see what happens.

 

I think those of us that do know the OLD SWG and NGE knows the difference.

 

The point you seem not to understand is, PRE-NGE we had skill points, you could PICK as YOU liked.

 

PRE- 3.0 SWTOR, you have 55 points to do as you please with, PRE-NGE had 250 skill points.

 

POST 3.0 7 points, 5 are limited thus you have 2 points left..... REST is forced on you.

 

Post NGE, NO points what so ever.....

 

See...... still different ?...... It's the removal of CHOICE that we are talking about..... How hard can that be to understand.

[Costello]

When the NGE launched they didn't both with skill trees. It didn't fit the vision of a game where balance was the top priority so we went from the 32 professions + 4 Jedi professions each with 4 branches in each and a master slot to 7 with no branches.

 

This was rightly deemed as awful so over the course of a year each class then got skill trees, it would be a lie to say they offered a lot of choice but the jedi got light and dark and each of the other classes got something of a choice. Sadly a year is a long time and in MMO's its a life time. So while the issue was identified it took far too long to fix.

 

With disciples we will likely see something similar. Suddenly we go from having some choice 55 points to spend, yes I need to spend a lot to top the tree but that is my choice to having 7 of which I have very limited. Part of the fun of an RPG is the choices we get to make. Ive just dusted off Dragon Age ready for the next installment. The difference between Origins and 2 is massive and acknowledged. In 1 you had choice (maybe the illusion) in 2 people felt that nothing they did mattered or made a difference. And this moved over to the change of weapon choice for the classes, how stats and armour etc worked. As soon as the option to play your way was curtailed people had a lot less fun.

 

Disciplines may well be looking to have a similar effect and from what we have seen even with the system being shiny and new dumbing down is obvious.

[ThorgrimLutgen]

NGE was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines remove hybrids and the illusion of choice.

 

Completely different scale bud!

 

Whilst that may be correct, it is going to be down to how each individual sees the changes effect themselves. If it has a negative impact, some will call it a day, others will tolerate it and it will become the norm and in 6 months time no one will remember anyway.

 

Makes no odds to me, it's not going to effect me, I am counting down the days again until I lapse, the lack of any new PVP content whatsoever was enough for me to let it go again.

[hadoken]

Except in SW:G, you actually could have viable hybrid builds. You can't, here. They're either under- or overpowered, thus ignored or nerfed. Skill trees were simply an illusion that hearkened back to days that no longer exist. The only reason to keep them is nostalgia, but you cannot balance emotion.

 

Oh they were every bit as overpowered in SWG too, the devs just had no clue what to do with them (or didn't care). I loved that game but I'm not going to sit here and pretend it was something it wasn't - flawless. FAR from it. The doc/cm combos my guild ran were pretty much immortal in teams, we were known on our server for taking down far larger groups of players in pvp because we could cross mind heal pretty much forever. It's just those kinds of exploits (and really, getting anything to work really well in that game was an exploit as NOTHING worked the way it was 'supposed' to) weren't widely known to the average player running around with creature handler or some other useless pvp tree.

[Horaciozhao]

I just don´t know why people think Discipline will damatically change their gameplay, I mean, just go look at that sorc lightening discipline, sit down and look at it before you judge it. It is exactly the same as before, all the procs, they added new skills and tweaked some skills, just like buffing nerfing a skill tree. They made most non dmg buff to utility tree which you can choose yourself, just like when you choose on a skill tree which to buy which to skip. Maybe even better since now you don´t need to choose a skill only to advance to higher tier, and the Discipline is only old skill tree abilities, all the other abilities still can be bought from trainners. they canceled hybrid because it was never supposed to be working, and they are right, it´s too hard to keep all 3 trees balanced with hybrid interfering, and about losing creativity of hybrid. Just how creative a hybrid is? there isn´t 1000 different way of hybriding things, if you go one hybrid spec, it´s the same as all others who go that spec. Why on earth would it be changing your play style too much? Edited October 15, 2014 by Horaciozhao