EllieAnne Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 "While Skill Trees appear on the surface to provide flexibility and choice, in practicality they give very little of either. Players of a skill tree all tend to take the same skills in roughly the same order, with only minor variations on which utility choices they pick up by the end of their leveling system." So two problems with that thinking. One of the FIRST things I grab are the +9 cunning or aim or +100 Force no matter what build I am trying to make and I also tend to ignore the +1/2% Endurance and most if not all speed ones. What if others don't? That means that it's not available? You think there's discrepancy now just wait if there are powerful skills that are not available for everyone. Second, there are some (again for me) worthless skill I have to pick up simply to fill in the 5/level requirement. I would hate to think I'm picking up "Upon leaving stealth, health is increase 5% for 2 minutes" at the cost of something else simply because "everyone" also uses it as a fill-in like me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Those issues you have won't even apply in the new discipline system. That's the entire reason they are removing the current skill trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorwen Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Those issues you have won't even apply in the new discipline system. That's the entire reason they are removing the current skill trees. Actually no they still are. The difference is on the left your railroaded into those skills you don't want(not even the illusion of choice) and on the right you have a minimum required before the next tier(at least 3 in tier 1 and at least 5 before tier 3). The only issue they will not have is the issue of having too many choices. Edited October 9, 2014 by Sorwen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeo-finell Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Actually no they still are. The difference is on the left your railroaded into those skills you don't want(not even the illusion of choice) and on the right you have a minimum required before the next tier(at least 3 in tier 1 and at least 5 before tier 3). The only issue they will not have is the issue of having too many choices. You will want every talent on the left pane because they all increase your output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) Actually no they still are. The difference is on the left your railroaded into those skills you don't want(not even the illusion of choice) and on the right you have a minimum required before the next tier(at least 3 in tier 1 and at least 5 before tier 3). The only issue they will not have is the issue of having too many choices. That's not an "issue." If you are railroaded into it (as you say) then its no longer a choice issue. YOU DON'T MAKE THE CHOICE ANYMORE. Bioware has decided you have to take it as part of your class growth. Thus, not a problem. They don't care if you don't take it now. In your advancement "tree" in the new system you have to take certain upgrades as they are automatic. The "choice" is the side with meaningful skills and abilities. Edited October 9, 2014 by Arkerus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimG Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Take a look at Dulfy's write-up on Sorcerer Disciplines from the live stream: http://dulfy.net/2014/10/07/swtor-sorcerer-disciplines-and-utilities-for-3-0/ The powers that were skippable or didn't fit certain playstyles have basically been moved to the utility tree so you can still decide to skip them if you want. Only the core powers for each spec are the automatic ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorwen Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) That's not an "issue." If you are railroaded into it (as you say) then its no longer a choice issue. YOU DON'T MAKE THE CHOICE ANYMORE. Bioware has decided you have to take it as part of your class growth. Thus, not a problem. They don't care if you don't take it now. In your advancement "tree" in the new system you have to take certain upgrades as they are automatic. The "choice" is the side with meaningful skills and abilities. No kidding which makes them issues. One of the FIRST things I grab are the +9 cunning or aim or +100 Force no matter what build I am trying to make and I also tend to ignore the +1/2% Endurance and most if not all speed ones. If they force them on the build they choose to take Endurance that could be an issue. You are railroaded into your benefits. Second, there are some (again for me) worthless skill I have to pick up simply to fill in the 5/level requirement. Just like there are some skills people choose not to use that come directly from class you are on the left railroaded into what skills you get. And on the right you have to pick at least 3 skill to meet the requirement whether you feel one or more of the skills is worthless or not. Because you don't have a choice in the matter doesn't change the issues they were talking about it can make them a thousand times worse. Edited October 9, 2014 by Sorwen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazaani Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 For me it seems that only thing that will be really denied is true hybrids. And truth to be told that wont bother me a bit. I know many are offended ofc for various reasons and they ofc have every right to be. Alltogether i havent still seen any such threat or fear that would have made me say "omg thats so true"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillionsKNives Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 This isn't an exercise in mass voting, they are removing the illusion of choice and giving you the "tree" that they feel will be best for everyone who uses the spec. It won't be based on which skills are used most often by players, it will be set by the devs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halinalle Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Good thing is that you don't have to use utility points in new system to pick +100 Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Those issues you have won't even apply in the new discipline system. That's the entire reason they are removing the current skill trees. Well, Im not so sure of that. It all depends on which skills are offered. It is likely at least one playstyle is going to get forcefed a skill that they do not need or want...to what extent is unknown at this point. The may not be a real issue...but I think having concerns at this point is not that unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkerus Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 No kidding which makes them issues. If they force them on the build they choose to take Endurance that could be an issue. You are railroaded into your benefits. Just like there are some skills people choose not to use that come directly from class you are on the left railroaded into what skills you get. And on the right you have to pick at least 3 skill to meet the requirement whether you feel one or more of the skills is worthless or not. Because you don't have a choice in the matter doesn't change the issues they were talking about it can make them a thousand times worse. You don't get it... What you are referring to is a completely different conversation. What are you are referring to is class balance/design. The issue, that the OP refers to, is no longer an issue for the player. They don't have to make that choice. And I'll say this nicely... If they make you take endurance as a class buff at level...say...15, then that's too bad. Get over it. That is the design they choose because they are balancing the class around it.. Your meaningful choices come on the "right" side. If you don't like the fact that say, they make you take a +3% to endurance, bring it up on the class forums. That is a completely different discussion. Bioware doesn't care if a person never took +1/2/3% to endurance. They have decided (for example) that everyone gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllieAnne Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Let me ask this, are all the skills from all the trees available no matter what discipline you pick or will some be excluded e.g. only Carnage Marauders get the 36% offhand damage increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashforth Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 IF (a big if) they are able to balance the game for PVP and PVE then I couldn't care less if they made all skill decisions for me. They aren't making all skill decisions (utility skills), but I wouldn't care if they did as long as class balance was improved. players want to feel more unique from another player but its an illusion since everyone will flock to a FotM build or suffer performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashforth Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Let me ask this, are all the skills from all the trees available no matter what discipline you pick or will some be excluded e.g. only Carnage Marauders get the 36% offhand damage increase. Would it matter if only Carnage gets the 36% offhand damage increase if the other trees are balanced without it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 "While Skill Trees appear on the surface to provide flexibility and choice, in practicality they give very little of either. Players of a skill tree all tend to take the same skills in roughly the same order, with only minor variations on which utility choices they pick up by the end of their leveling system." So two problems with that thinking. One of the FIRST things I grab are the +9 cunning or aim or +100 Force no matter what build I am trying to make and I also tend to ignore the +1/2% Endurance and most if not all speed ones. What if others don't? That means that it's not available? You think there's discrepancy now just wait if there are powerful skills that are not available for everyone. Second, there are some (again for me) worthless skill I have to pick up simply to fill in the 5/level requirement. I would hate to think I'm picking up "Upon leaving stealth, health is increase 5% for 2 minutes" at the cost of something else simply because "everyone" also uses it as a fill-in like me. The idea behind the change is to eliminate the worthless, filler abilities and cut down to the core abilities to the spec. Then, the other utility based/optional skills will be available by choice to all classes. So your stat boosts would most likely fall in the utility tree if they are still around. I don't remember if the +WP skill was there when they did the Sorc walkthrough on stream. As a side note, the main stat/endurance % increases are a horrible first option. You don't have a high enough pool of either for a percentage increase to mean anything. I mean, if you have 100 endurance, 1% is 10 health for a skill point. In fact, I don't know of any builds that even take the % Endurance buff, but I've never really done progression tanking so maybe it's helpful when you have 40k HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) That's not an "issue." If you are railroaded into it (as you say) then its no longer a choice issue. YOU DON'T MAKE THE CHOICE ANYMORE. Bioware has decided you have to take it as part of your class growth. Thus, not a problem. They don't care if you don't take it now. In your advancement "tree" in the new system you have to take certain upgrades as they are automatic. The "choice" is the side with meaningful skills and abilities. And it's that automatic part of the new system that's absolutely terrible. What's next, automatic mod selection because some players are taking "improper" Enhancements and it "hurts balance"? Edited October 13, 2014 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeo-finell Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 There's no reason not to think that main stat % increases won't simply be baked into level increases. Endurance is different as it doesn't affect your rotation, so it wlll be in the utility pane. As far as having to put three points into the first tier of utility talents, this is obviously to stop people putting all seven points into their Heroic tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vornamen Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I hate the skill band system. I've had it in WoW for 2 xpacs now, and it's terrible. My issues with it: 1. I don't care if we all made cookie cutter builds, it was fun, and interesting. Every level, I got a little something that was cool. I could toss a point in there. Now? Jack crap for leveling. Find a trainer, bump some skills. 2. It waters down choice, no matter what you say. A band with a few a options every 10 levels is far less selective than a tree with points applied every level. If I want, I can lvl two trees and skip the ultimate until the level cap. It was fun when you could hybrid classes a bit and get interesting builds for situations. 3. I said this with WoW, but I'm not sure it's true here, usually a convert to a skill band kills a large part of the fun in a game. For WoW, it was the beginning of the end. People literally left on that alone. The cool part of swotor is that it isn't as simplistic as something like WoW, but not as hard as something like EVE. Now it's getting watered down. I guess next we will no long visit class trainers for skill purchases. All of the arguments for a skill band system are there was no choice and it gave the illusion there was, but even the illusion has merit. Beyond that though, what it really says to me is "This is too much work for developers to balance and make fun, so we're going to scrap it for extra time at starbucks." It just needs a better selection of situational selections. 1/2/3% endurance being skipped? Make it 2/4/6%. Make the other selection compelling in some way. Sweeten the pot and some will opt for it and there comes the variety along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeo-finell Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It just needs a better selection of situational selections. 1/2/3% endurance being skipped? Make it 2/4/6%. Make the other selection compelling in some way. Sweeten the pot and some will opt for it and there comes the variety along with it. This is exactly what the utility talents are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 For me it seems that only thing that will be really denied is true hybrids. And truth to be told that wont bother me a bit. I know many are offended ofc for various reasons and they ofc have every right to be. Alltogether i havent still seen any such threat or fear that would have made me say "omg thats so true"... I'm not offended. I'm sad and disappointed. but then again, I never played hybrids in group content, so its my soling that's going to be most affected by the change :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vornamen Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 This is exactly what the utility talents are doing. Then why not clean up the skill tree, keep it as pretty much what we all know, and give us something more interesting instead of this boring band thing? I can say I tried this in wow, and it sucks. Period. No variance at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Then why not clean up the skill tree, keep it as pretty much what we all know, and give us something more interesting instead of this boring band thing? I can say I tried this in wow, and it sucks. Period. No variance at all. Because BW admitted they can't balance all of the variances you want. The combat team is obviously small and leaving the enormous amounts of possible hybrids was taking months to balance as the player base found them. This system makes it so they only have to test the utility abilities to ensure nothing is game-breaking. It also makes it easier for them to balance level cap increases. As we have more points, we can go higher into each tree and create bigger/better hybrids and that requires even more testing. This way, they can just add to the existing discipline and possibly add some new utilities during a level cap increase without difficulty. I agree, it takes some choice (terrible choices at that) away from the players, but something had to change as we move to level 60 and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujeo-finell Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Then why not clean up the skill tree, keep it as pretty much what we all know, and give us something more interesting instead of this boring band thing? I can say I tried this in wow, and it sucks. Period. No variance at all. They decided that listening to you wasn't a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I've never really been married to the skill system in this game as I have in others, so I don't really have an issue with them changing things. The concept that you can more easily perform the role you want to earlier in the game is a good thing, in my opinion. That could have been achieved without reworking the entire system, I'm sure, but either way I think it's a positive thing in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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