Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[TACeMossie]

I'm definitely going to miss the 2/28/16 sage hybrid spec (no more mobility + burst spec ), but im interested in seeing where this goes. Who knows, I might get energy rebounder universally for my VG!

[Kowack]

2 words : Galaxies NGE........

[Drakoswar]

I must admit, my first reply was, "what the heck! Horrible, how DARE YOU CHANGE THIS!"

 

Then... I read it... Thought about it...

 

This was needed... As much as we don't like change sometimes, this was needed... Too many of our newer guildies are confused by the skill tree and how to setup rotations.

 

For a game aimed at casuals, this was needed.

 

So I give Bioware credit for moving in this direction, since they are right, those who know what they are doing largely picked all the same stuff anyway in a complex system. Hopefully this will make respecing easier and faster too.

 

I like it... I didn't like it at first, but I see it now...

 

Good job...

 

 

So you're saying you like the fact they will be dumbing down the game so little kids have an easier time understanding it? This is the very reason I have never played WoW and never will

[Meltedskull]

You guys are overreacting so badly it makes me laugh.

 

This is NOT the second coming of NGE Galaxies, for you guys spouting freaking dumb nonsense without even part of that era of SWG should just stop posting. SWG was a SANDBOX GAME and the NGE made it into a THEME PARK, that is why it failed so badly. SWTOR is a THEME PARK so restrictions and such is already part of that type of MMO. SWTOR =/= SWG so stop, just stop. There's a Pre-CU SWG server up go there if you want to keep crying about SWG instead of flooding the forums with non-sense.

 

ANYWAYS,

 

I want to see the twitch showing first before anything honestly. This is NOTHING like the WoW system so comparing the two is like comparing Counter Strike to COD.

 

WoW Talent Tree is 1 talent for each 15 levels out of a pool of 3. This isn't even the same as what SWTOR is trying to pull off. Just wait till they show it before going up in arms on the forums with obvious lack of information.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Meltedskull

[Mozepy]

Because what you are suggesting is all but impossible. Regardless of the choices provided, someone somewhere will come up with an ideal/optimal choice and then we will be right back where we are now: plenty of choices, but only one or two that are considered good choices.

 

Spoken like a good sheeple. Theory crafters are not only often wrong, they are mostly wrong. They never account for the human factor and when something is 1% or even .001% less on paper they declare it "not viable" and the mindless masses follow suit, regardless of the fact that no encounter is so tightly tuned that 1% even matters. If you finish a fight that close, it's because somebody failed at a mechanic.

 

Time and again players prove the theory crafters wrong with results but they reply "we have charts" and the devs never dispute it even though they know their system works. Yeah the devs might have to put in some hours to produce something original. They admit that stealing from WoW for their last system was bad but stealing from WoW again will make it better? That system failed for WoW too. If you were going to be a "good player" you had to make specific choices for each encounter.

 

They seem to forget that this is an RPG and giving players options that allow them to have unique characters is part of that. Not just for aesthetics but also for playstyle. Giving people the cookie cutter spec with one click and allowing them to choose a couple utility options doesn't give you unique characters. Before anyone says "special snowflake" if you have a problem with that you shouldn't be playing RPGs because that is the whole point. If you have a problem with uniqueness you are the outsider, you are the ones that have invaded a genre you don't even like or understand and have influenced it negatively.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Mozepy

[Drakoswar]

That's gross exaggeration.

 

You'll likely have the same level of personalization or better. There were a few decent hybrid builds, but they ranged from "notably weaker" to "unintentionally imbalanced" with very few landing in the middle. If you were one of the people who was using one of those pre-baked imabalanced hybrid builds, then.... sorry you lost your crutch, but there was never anything all that unique and special about it.

 

 

 

So they can have identity.

 

I have a Level 19 healer.... except she's not a healer, because at best she has the same heals as every other Scoundrel, just with a really minor speed increase. I can't actually run her as a healer in FPs because she doesn't have the bonuses to energy regen or the power to heal up a tank through a boss fight. And the tanks can't help me because they don't have decent tanking abilities, either.

 

...and both of those situations come from the fact that they can't put role-critical abilities in the bottom two-tiers of a tree, because they'd be gobbled up to create imbalanced hybrids.

 

I'd love to see more hybrid classes, but they need to be developed in a reasonable way. Path of Exile shows what happens when you don't have enough restrictions.

 

 

 

The game?

 

Since when is driving fast to endgame a universal goal? If you want to rush to 55 as fast as you can, go for it. Most people play through the game because its enjoyable.

 

If anything, I like this system because it will discourage the "Must rush to endgame!" feeling that so many new players had. I want them to make the low-level game more fun, not bore me into wishing I was a higher level.

 

 

 

They already explained this: They are the same skills you had before. I suspect that the "default" skill choices will result in nearly identical builds to the most common builds being used right now.

 

 

First off mixed builds are some the best builds in most games including SWTOR. 2nd Lower levels are meant to be that way so you level to come into "your" own as a character. 3rd All mmo's are max level games. If you like to take forever to level that's fine but just like pro-gamers that get to max level as fast as they can it's normal and part of every mmo. Who cares about weak lower levels? You do it seams and to me its comical.

[Meltedskull]

I want to point out that the talent tree as we have currently is cookie cutter. All you can choose is Cookie cutter, Hybrid, or very minor variant of cookie cutter. Let's be real here, there is no choice with the talent tree as it is changing 1 - 2 points around isn't even real choice.

[GhOsTPrOz]

...This is a horrible idea... For the people who spent time and effort into creating their own builds and prefect rotations are now stuck with nothing. Why make lower lvls have great skills early?! i mean wheres the drive then to lvl fast and get to end game? End game players are suppose to be over powered vers. non end game players. And this new concept of (none skill trees because Bioware didn't want to do more work is absolutely ridiculous. Its bad enouhg that it takes thme months or even almost a year to fix bugs sometimes in the game but to openly admit that they didn't increase the lvl cap and keep the same skill tree because it would take more time is just plain un professional. If theses new "skills" aren't good im done with this game forever.

 

I a so agree with you, if this **** sucks I'm out, bad enough they got rid of my hybrids I had so much fun thinking up hybrids to play in PvP for all my classes, plus it seems to me like I can't get the 9 percent aim in the VG tank then for my dps now, stuff like that is going to DESTROY parses and send people back to the stone ages! Strongholds sucked and this is gonna too, I think I will move on to better games because this is terrible, these devs make enough money that they should listen to what the community wants not what makes it easy for them, hybrids were part of the game, part of the game just died, I think I am gonna quit, JUST LIKE BEFORE ....losers

[Mozepy]

 

I want to see the twitch showing first before anything honestly. This is NOTHING like the WoW system so comparing the two is like comparing Counter Strike to COD.

 

Sorry but what they have shown is EXACTLY like the WOW system, just graphically displayed differently.

 

On the left you have the stuff you learn automatically as you level. It's the cookie cutter spec (discipline) that builds for you as you level. Just Like WoW.

 

On the right you have the Utility choices. Instead of 6 tiers you have 3 but you get a more choices, but still just utility choices.

 

In wow your choices were often made for you by the encounter that is if you were paying attention. If the encounter didn't need anything specific in a tier whatever you chose was probably useless for that encounter and highly situational any place else. Wow has a few choices that are not utility but often the encounter would require a particular choice.

 

I'm not saying keep the old system just don't replace the failed system you ripped off from WoW with another fail system ripped off from WoW.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Mozepy

[JamieKirby]

The thing that is funny, but i give it 2 weeks, if that before the elitists choose which is best for each AC and the others are non-viable, even though they are...

[Mozepy]

First off mixed builds are some the best builds in most games including SWTOR.

And that's why they try to eliminate them. Many hybrid builds are total fail but they really don't care about those. They want to eliminate the really good ones. In a recent twitch stream the devs even admitted this. In WoW they were constantly moving stuff around to make getting a certain OP build impossible. Even when they launched their ultra simplified short bus system people found some builds that were pretty good and they were patched quickly.

 

The simple fact is they don't want you to have fun if they have to work harder to balance it. Lazy Devs are Lazy.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Mozepy

[WayneJarvis]

So what you are saying is you don't want DoTsmash to happen again.

[Mozepy]

So what you are saying is you don't want DoTsmash to happen again.

 

I didn't get a chance to play with it but it seemed to introduce a different playstyle which has it's own merits outside of total pwnage. They should have tried to balance it rather than eliminate it as viable. They don't understand that the system they stole from WoW was meant to encourage experimentation. WoW gave up on that so I guess Bioware did too.

[maverickmatt]

First off mixed builds are some the best builds in most games including SWTOR. 2nd Lower levels are meant to be that way so you level to come into "your" own as a character. 3rd All mmo's are max level games. If you like to take forever to level that's fine but just like pro-gamers that get to max level as fast as they can it's normal and part of every mmo. Who cares about weak lower levels? You do it seams and to me its comical.

 

No, what is comical is that you've deluded yourself into thinking that your opinion matters any more than his, hers, mine, or theirs.

 

!.) "Hybrid" builds are ineffective and often result in players missing integral parts of a tree because they can't see what's plainly in front of them. This results in endless complaining that spec a is better than spec b and spec c is so weak it should be removed from the game.. so on and so forth.

 

Case in point: Vigilance pre 2.6 had everything it needed to be extraordinary, but players wouldn't spend the points in the tree. No, they'd rather have that extra armor boost or that increased crit chance on Dispatch. By doing that they weakened the overall spec, as the talents they normally skipped are extremely effective.

 

2) This is not a traditional MMO. This game puts extreme emphasis on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The skill tree setup was always a bad idea for this type of game but you couldn't implement an open talent system in this era of gaming. The new discipline system seems to fall somewhere between the two and it's a fine compromise.

 

3) Again, this is less MMO and more RPG.

 

4) It's actually "seems".

 

Now that you've made yourself look sufficiently ignorant, please take your unwarranted insults elsewhere.

[Idoya]

Hmm....

 

Nope.

[Mozepy]

No, what is comical is that you've deluded yourself into thinking that your opinion matters any more than his, hers, mine, or theirs.

 

!.) "Hybrid" builds are ineffective and often result in players missing integral parts of a tree because they can't see what's plainly in front of them. This results in endless complaining that spec a is better than spec b and spec c is so weak it should be removed from the game.. so on and so forth.

 

Case in point: Vigilance pre 2.6 had everything it needed to be extraordinary, but players wouldn't spend the points in the tree. No, they'd rather have that extra armor boost or that increased crit chance on Dispatch. By doing that they weakened the overall spec, as the talents they normally skipped are extremely effective.

 

2) This is not a traditional MMO. This game puts extreme emphasis on the RPG aspect of MMORPG. The skill tree setup was always a bad idea for this type of game but you couldn't implement an open talent system in this era of gaming. The new discipline system seems to fall somewhere between the two and it's a fine compromise.

 

3) Again, this is less MMO and more RPG.

 

4) It's actually "seems".

 

Now that you've made yourself look sufficiently ignorant, please take your unwarranted insults elsewhere.

 

When you point your finger three others point back at you oh ignorant one.

 

As I said above they don't try to eliminate ineffective hybrids, they only work to eliminate OP ones.

 

Customizable gameplay is more an RPG thing than an MMO thing because what your character does should be tied to who they are and what choices they made. MMO mentality is in favor of homogenization. If they had an "extreme emphasis on the RPG aspects" they would be working on a deeper system, not shallower.

 

RPG != Story lines. If you ever referred to a cut scene or opening boss dialog as "RP" you are an idiot. That is exposition. A good RPG revolves around character development, not just the dramatic and aesthetic aspects but also abilities and talents. The abilities you learn and how they develop should be a result of the choices your character makes in their life.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Mozepy

[Bomberman]

I just have one quote

"Change is coming to the world (TOR). Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being. But sometimes, change is what they need the most. Sometimes, change is what sets them free."

[Mozepy]

I just have one quote

"Change is coming to the world (TOR). Many fear change and will fight it with every fiber of their being. But sometimes, change is what they need the most. Sometimes, change is what sets them free."

 

What does someone who always fears change have in common with someone who always embraces it? They are both idiots because neither of them evaluated it.

 

You made the tired old "you just fear change" canard. It's totally irrelevant. Most everyone here is at least evaluating to some extent. I'm against what they are doing but I am completely in favor of a good change.

[Meltedskull]

Sorry but what they have shown is EXACTLY like the WOW system, just graphically displayed differently.

 

On the left you have the stuff you learn automatically as you level. It's the cookie cutter spec (discipline) that builds for you as you level. Just Like WoW.

 

On the right you have the Utility choices. Instead of 6 tiers you have 3 but you get a more choices, but still just utility choices.

 

In wow your choices were often made for you by the encounter that is if you were paying attention. If the encounter didn't need anything specific in a tier whatever you chose was probably useless for that encounter and highly situational any place else. Wow has a few choices that are not utility but often the encounter would require a particular choice.

 

I'm not saying keep the old system just don't replace the failed system you ripped off from WoW with another fail system ripped off from WoW.

 

I understand that but like you said WoW didn't have much utility choice and it was piss poor. All we're getting for free is the must haves like for example gore on an earlier level. If we're going to go into that tree unless we're doing hybrid we're still going to get all the must haves talents anyways to begin with in reality we already build this way again not including hybrids because those tend to rise and fall depending on the patch. I myself am just waiting to see it in action before I make my official claim.

 

The only thing I hate from the WoW system is that the pool is small and the choices -SUCK- and that's why I feel it didn't kick off as well as they wanted it to. I'm willing to see what BW does with the revamp talents.

 

At least now Anni Marauder can get some anti-kiting utility that's needed for PvP.

 

Also, I threw up the WoW talent calc and noticed you were correct. So I take back what I said with your quote.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Meltedskull

[Drewscifer]

Looks interesting. I don't PvP and just enjoy the RPG and Flashpoints so I think this will suit my perferred playing style very well.

[Mozepy]

I understand that but like you said WoW didn't have much utility choice and it was piss poor. All we're getting for free is the must haves like for example gore on an earlier level. If we're going to go into that tree unless we're doing hybrid we're still going to get all the must haves talents anyways to begin with in reality we already build this way again not including hybrids because those tend to rise and fall depending on the patch. I myself am just waiting to see it in action before I make my official claim.

 

The only thing I hate from the WoW system is that the pool is small and the choices -SUCK- and that's why I feel it didn't kick off as well as they wanted it to. I'm willing to see what BW does with the revamp talents.

 

At least now Anni Marauder can get some anti-kiting utility that's needed for PvP.

 

I said wow had few choices that were NOT utility. Most of them are Utility. Hybrids don't just tend to rise and fall. They rise because someone discovered it and fall because rather than balancing it the devs nerf it.

 

Also you should understand that the "wait and see" position is not neutral, it's decidedly pro. When you have enough to see they have already done it. There is plenty to see right now what direction it is going. Unfortunately it's probably all done anyway. The time to say anything would have been months ago when we knew nothing. Bioware doesn't like to submit to player criticism.

[Aikiyc]

My concern is the hit to differing playstyles within specs. Not so much in the sense of hybrids, though I enjoy making those. But in the sense of say, I'm in this group in say... a warzone. I'm gonna be the mid-controller, thus in need of mobility or stuns over straight damage. So instead of taking X skill that's for pure damage, I take B skill for longer stun. This is a change in the side utility skills, yes, but greatly alters my playstyle in a given match.

 

In other words, this change to the skill trees, making it automatic gimmes and completely standardized damage with some piddly utility picks, better have some amazing hallelujah uber earth shattering yippee-ki-ay sweet mother of god epic utility picks in the tiers, that have very definitive playstyle altering ramifications. Beyond the pathetic reduced AoE damage they used as an example, which is exactly the sort of skill people talk about as being a boring constant pick.

 

WoW released Cata and told me to play my rogue their way or to get the hell out. I hope BioWare is not making the same statement. I like to be able to guide my spec into a playstyle that meshes with me, has my own flair. Like I can do in say... KotOR, or Dragon Age, or Mass Effect?

[Meltedskull]

I said wow had few choices that were NOT utility. Most of them are Utility. Hybrids don't just tend to rise and fall. They rise because someone discovered it and fall because rather than balancing it the devs nerf it.

 

Also you should understand that the "wait and see" position is not neutral, it's decidedly pro. When you have enough to see they have already done it. There is plenty to see right now what direction it is going. Unfortunately it's probably all done anyway. The time to say anything would have been months ago when we knew nothing. Bioware doesn't like to submit to player criticism.

 

Bare with me it's past midnight so I'm half falling asleep so if I misread you then sorry. Last part though? I do agree.

[TheFrostLord]

I loved it when they got rid of skill trees in WoW, and I love it here.

 

Sigh... go away sheep we don't want you here making them dumb down games...

[Deadlyjoker]

So basically you are a cookie cutter of the new world of warcraft system and the changes they implemented