Developer Update: Introduction to Disciplines

[Alandross]

I'm intrigued. I do think this will probably be a good step forward, basic skill trees were a bad idea and most MMOs simply copied WoW since it did it and was so big (not that WoW invented skill trees of course, I personally am not a fan of WoW). WoW solidified so many bad things that seemed novel but were genuinely bad and lazy design, like replacing kill grinds with quest grinds, skill trees that didn't mean anything since people will find an optimal spec and mostly just stick with it (with a few exceptions).

 

The only game that did skill trees right in my opinion was Rift and that was because you could mix and match so many that it truly meant there were many ways to go and they all had pros and cons.

 

I think this will create better spec'd people (if not better at know their spec, but we'll see)... This reminds me a lot of the classic EQ with a basic level progression and then a ton of Alternate Ability points to use to customize your strengths and utility in some cases.

 

I hope this is also a precursor to the ability to switch specs like roles in Rift.

[Thepyrethatburns]

We'll see. Having never played WOW, I have no real experience with what they're talking about.

 

What I am hoping is that it doesn't lock me into a path. My Sith Warrior my be pure DPS but I like having my Trooper be able to be a healer or a second-rate DPS. (Long story short: At level 40, I realized the top abilities on healing just weren't worth it so I've been upping the DPS aspect some with the last couple of levels.)

[akdonkey]

Would be really nice if all the gold we invested in our skills this far would also be refunded.

 

0 Gold for you... We use credits here.

[Rhyn]

I do worry about changes like this because history has shown it leads to a dumb down version of the game. I will try to be optimistic that we will see a better product. I truly hope they use these changes to address the short CC cool downs and the resolve system that has plagued this game for far to long. Maybe even remove some of the CC's.

[Mannheimblack]

This Disciplines thing looks a lot, really a lot, like what Blizzard did to WoW's talent-tree mechanics with Mists of Pandaria.

 

It wasn't a good idea then and I'm really not convinced that it's a good idea now.

 

MMOs thrive on theorycrafting, modding, exploration and inventiveness. They don't have to be specifically a 'sandbox MMO' for this to be the case - early WoW thrived on being huge, open, even slightly messy at the edges and above all, open-minded to the community's input.

 

SWTOR's big failing in my opinion has always been that it's too tightly-constrained, too controlled. (That and its game mechanics too closely mirrored WoW. Ah well, plus ca change...)

 

Oversimplification does so much damage to MMOs. It makes them easier for new players to play for a month or two, finish the content and walk away from them forever.

 

I'm not sure how SWTOR can possibly afford the damage that this will do, and remain a viable product. Is it looking so bad financially for the game that Bioware need to implement this kind of kill-or-cure?

[Kinudig]

Yes, and no. Try actually doing the math.

 

Currently, leveling up to L55 gives you 46 skill points. That means a "pure" build lets you put 10 points in some other tree.

 

I am (was...) trying out a Deception/Madness hybrid Assassin, based on the attempt to swap Voltaic Slash for Death Field. I can't have both. There aren't enough points. What happens if they move the level cap to 60, but don't change the skill trees?

 

Now I've got 51 points to allocate. I can put 36 in Deception, giving me Voltaic slash and all its bonuses, plus I can grab Death Field, its two bonuses, and give myself 7% armor penetration. Yay! Does that sound balanced to you? Well, start thinking about all the other possibilities. Vengeance Juggernauts with Shatter and Obliterate. Or Shatter and Invincible with Armor reduction.

 

How do you avoid that? Well, you move the first rank of active abilities up a rank... to the fourth rank. That means that you don't get your first active ability until level 25. So... No effective Shadow/Assassin tanks until Tatooine (Nar Shaddaa for fast movers). No decent healing abilities until then, too. Nothing to set you apart from any other member of your Advanced Class, because that would make for super-powerful hybrids.

 

Does that sound better? What about the next level increase? Now it has to be nothing special until level 30. That means most players would finish the first chapter without any skill-tree-based active ability. It starts to become problematic just for simple game balance, much less balancing PvP or Ops.

 

Loads of people saw this coming for just this reason. In order to support further expansion, there needed to be some way to lock characters out of abilities from other trees so that we didn't have stealth DPS characters that can heal themselves as good as a healer or Tanks that are the most mobile class in the game.

 

Something like this had to happen. What I'm hoping now, is that they'll leave the door open to add new Disciplines in the future that address some of the desires for Hybrid roles while still keeping them balanced.

 

 

 

Most insightful and practical post yet.

[Bradypan]

Sounds like for every fight, at least in NiM, you'll need to remember a different set of utilities countering specific mechanics/type of damage in that fight. Have fun theorycrafters! As for frozen rotations, those exist because mathematically, some abilities do more damage than others. Some abilities synergize with others. Therefore, you can come up with a "perfect rotation" that in theory will do more damage than others. Unless you would prefer that the current rotations be no more viable than a rotation that only has tracer missile or only has the basic attack. Also, Disciplines will remove hybrid builds, not make them possible. You no longer choose your attacks, nor can you have anything from a different discipline, you can only change utility points within a discipline.

[Jherad]

Of all the things people thought needed changing, THIS is what you hang your hat on? Oh Bioware.

 

Fair enough. Nothing you guys do really surprises me any more.

[JumperPenn]

I understand the idea of making your role have more of a point early on. I personally wouldn't queue as a healer/tank until I actually had some real skills to back that up.

 

At the same time adding in some of those skills earlier could 'ruin' the most fun I had pvp'ing, which was in lower levels with fewer abilities.

 

My 'solution' to trees make adding levels and balancing hard is simply to say stop adding levels. Which since this change is effectively done perhaps we can do that for the next expansion. Spend the time you'd spend on trees adding more content instead of adding more numbers to bosses and gear. But it is too soon to look to that, at best I can hope for an evolved thought on that for the next expansion.

 

Time will tell how this will work out.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I just found another example of what I call "frozen skill trees" :

 

So I was going through my backlog of podcasts and listened to the episode of Torocast where our class rep was guest and was discussing the answers to the questions he submitted.

 

In the follow-up discussion he mentioned he only knew of one hybrid for snipers.

 

There are in fact 2.

 

There are a LOT of more hybrids out there - just no-one plays them. Only these 2.

[RiVaN_]

Disciplines being introduced will not allow you to change Advanced Class, just Discipline. Example, if you are a Madness Sorcerer right now you will have the option of which Discipline to move into, Corruption, Lightning, or Madness just like you do now! Also, just like now, you will be able to change Disciplines after choosing should you want to.

 

-eric

 

This begs the question, can changing disciplines be done on the fly without visiting the trainer on fleet (the respec guy)?

[Tatile]

This begs the question, can changing disciplines be done on the fly without visiting the trainer on fleet (the respec guy)?

 

Aww, did Field Respec just become useless? :/

[RicoZaid]

All I need to know is can my Pyro Bounty Hunter get the Jet Charge power?

[Dextral]

I really like the idea of this change. Well implemented this will be a significant improvement.

[RiVaN_]

Aww, did Field Respec just become useless? :/

 

That is pretty much what I was hinting at. Counting all the wasted credits and cartel coins from purchasing FR on so many toons...

[ScarletBlaze]

they have a stream schedule you might get some answers then.

 

 

Tuesday (10/7) Disciplines Livestream with Eric Musco and David Demaree | 10.06.2014, 03:21 PM

Hey everyone,

 

Wanted to let you all know that tomorrow (10/7) we will be showing off Disciplines for the first time live. Eric Musco and David Demaree will walk you through the changes seen in seen in our Introduction to Disciplines blog.

 

When: 2-3 PM CDT

Where: twitch.tv/swtor

What: Showcasing Disciplines

 

Thank you!

Hillary Nicole

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...78#edit7710478

[Trollokdamus]

My question is what problem is this change trying to solve?

Reread the "Why the Change" part of the blog.

[Tatile]

they have a stream schedule you might get some answers then.

 

 

Tuesday (10/7) Disciplines Livestream with Eric Musco and David Demaree | 10.06.2014, 03:21 PM

Hey everyone,

 

Wanted to let you all know that tomorrow (10/7) we will be showing off Disciplines for the first time live. Eric Musco and David Demaree will walk you through the changes seen in seen in our Introduction to Disciplines blog.

 

When: 2-3 PM CDT

Where: twitch.tv/swtor

What: Showcasing Disciplines

 

Thank you!

Hillary Nicole

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...78#edit7710478

 

Tomorrow isn't the tenth, the tenth is Friday?

 

Also, another sodding livestream? Will there be cliff notes?

[ScarletBlaze]

Tomorrow isn't the tenth, the tenth is Friday?

 

Also, another sodding livestream? Will there be cliff notes?

 

October 7 (October is the 10th month)

[RiVaN_]

Tomorrow isn't the tenth, the tenth is Friday?

 

Also, another sodding livestream? Will there be cliff notes?

 

10/7 as in Month/Day or October the 7th.

Many countries do their date as Day/Month, but that would mean that we need to call the Dr and maybe Clara to take us back to the 10th of July to watch the stream they hid somewhere in cyberspace...

 

Joking of course.

 

But seriously, where did I park my Tardis?

[Kuuroh]

We will still be able to have similar rotations? I'm perfectly happy with my carnage mar, and not much of a fan of change.... will this change EVERYTHING? or just the order we put points in? Edited October 6, 2014 by Kuuroh

[GalaxyStrong]

does this mean, hope beyond hope, that our lightsaber type/style will no longer be bound to our class or ac? It would be great if we could pick our style from the utility points.

 

This!!!!!

[Seiffer]

I liked skill trees man. I have a solid build for each of my characters and do a great constant performance because of it. the fact that they are replacing it with the exact same thing like WoW has seems very unoriginal. why does everyone seem to not understand the concept of "if its not broken why fix it?". the skill tress work very well and are a solid way of maximizing your performance in your chosen roll. nice job bioware on screwing up something that worked just fine the way it was.

[menofhorror]

This sounds really interestng!

 

Wheter you like or hate, it`s true that with each level cap major development time is going to be spent on new set of skills, throwing away all the classbalance and than needing extra more time to balance them out again. This could actually be a really smart decision.

[SPEC_TRE]

This would be great news for me if I could actually preorder the new expansion with my card. In the name of Revan, is it so hard to remove the possibly recurring restriction from non-recurring purchases?