Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[Volcan]

The stupidity and/or ignorance on the first 3 pages is so great I had to stop reading. The OP is 100% correct.

 

"if you don't like the way conquest is setup, then don't participate" - I enjoy conquest very much, specifically the direct competition between guilds and the opportunity for all guild members to participate and work towards a common guild goal. The system just simply needs to be improved due to extreme imbalance in its point structure.

 

As a member of a guild that has won 4 conquests, there is no question that the guild that crafts the most... wins. One week we fought a guild that did nothing but craft; they had top score that week on server. They were a cross faction guild that only logged over to craft and then logged back to their imp toons. The majority of the time when you searched for their guild, no members were online. One or two would login for about 3 min. and the score would jump up, then they would log off again. It was an awesome move by them but at the same time only crafting and doing nothing else should not lead to a victory. During the Trade Emporium yes, but not EVERY week.

 

I think the numbers the OP posted speak for themselves, although some people don't seem to understand that reality. The amount of points these two guilds earned this last week is unbelievable and quite frankly rather unsettling to be honest. I do not envy their time spent in the race to first.

 

People need to understand that crafting is its own animal separate from the other ways to earn points and should be balanced accordingly. I can craft while simultaneously earning points via the other methods be it PVP, GSF, or FP/OPs. But the issue is the amount of points earned via crafting out weights all other methods by an unreasonable amount, to the point where your time is better spent gathering mats than doing anything else. Points rewarded for crafting need to be cut in half, if not more.

[ParagonAX]

The stupidity and/or ignorance on the first 3 pages is so great I had to stop reading. The OP is 100% correct.

 

"if you don't like the way conquest is setup, then don't participate" - I enjoy conquest very much, specifically the direct competition between guilds and the opportunity for all guild members to participate and work towards a common guild goal. The system just simply needs to be improved due to extreme imbalance in its point structure.

 

As a member of a guild that has won 4 conquests, there is no question that the guild that crafts the most... wins. One week we fought a guild that did nothing but craft; they had top score that week on server. They were a cross faction guild that only logged over to craft and then logged back to their imp toons. The majority of the time when you searched for their guild, no members were online. One or two would login for about 3 min. and the score would jump up, then they would log off again. It was an awesome move by them but at the same time only crafting and doing nothing else should not lead to a victory. During the Trade Emporium yes, but not EVERY week.

 

I think the numbers the OP posted speak for themselves, although some people don't seem to understand that reality. The amount of points these two guilds earned this last week is unbelievable and quite frankly rather unsettling to be honest. I do not envy their time spent in the race to first.

 

People need to understand that crafting is its own animal separate from the other ways to earn points and should be balanced accordingly. I can craft while simultaneously earning points via the other methods be it PVP, GSF, or FP/OPs. But the issue is the amount of points earned via crafting out weights all other methods by an unreasonable amount, to the point where your time is better spent gathering mats than doing anything else. Points rewarded for crafting need to be cut in half, if not more.

 

Hear, hear!

[curulz]

Then a tiny guild of 4 really dedicated players will win conquest every single time. It is much much easier to get a few hardcore players together than to get 500 hardcore players together.

 

Possibly, depending on how active and dedicated they are. Perhaps a scale, or a minimum total points to qualify for the leader board. But bottom line is that small guilds cannot compete with a large guild if all things are equal. That's why I'm suggesting something to level the playing field. I just don't think adjusting the point values for crafting will do that.

[ParagonAX]

Possibly, depending on how active and dedicated they are. Perhaps a scale, or a minimum total points to qualify for the leader board. But bottom line is that small guilds cannot compete with a large guild if all things are equal. That's why I'm suggesting something to level the playing field. I just don't think adjusting the point values for crafting will do that.

 

As I have stated repeatedly, these are two separate issues.

 

1. Fix crafting to be in-line (not over-nerfed) with other conquest activities, with distinct advantages given to distinct activities in different themed weeks.

 

2. Implement a system to make smaller guilds able to compete.

[Volcan]

Someone gets it. Crafting is allowed to be so effective because it is not sustainable. The credit requirement is too high, and the only means to replenish credits does not give conquest points.

 

This is not a solution. All this means is that whichever guild can sustain it the most will win. Just because guilds will earn less points does not detract from the fact that the issue is still just as flawed. A player that credit farms and sends out missions will earn more points per minute than a player that runs WZs, GSF, or FPs/GF. Remember the point system is all relative depending on competitors' score.

[JDotter]

TIL conquests has drama like PvE

 

Lawls

[TUXs]

Well, let's see, when you craft, you are sitting in a chair in front of you computer moving the mouse and pressing buttons. When you raid, on the other hand, you are ...

 

... sitting in a chair in front of your computer moving the mouse and pressing buttons.

 

I see the difference now.

What in God's name do you think you're crafting? I click a button and log off. When I raid, I need to at least be ATK.

[MillionsKNives]

What in God's name do you think you're crafting? I click a button and log off. When I raid, I need to at least be ATK.

 

You don't accept the groupfinder queue and then AFK for the next couple of hours until they finish the op? Works for me all the time. And just like with crafting, every so often I'll come back and find out it failed. Though for some reason the players are a lot more rude when that happens than my companion is. They don't even say sorry to me.

[swtordrz]

Conquest "winning" is simply more people clicking more buttons, so instead of each Conquest week being:

 

1. Conquest competing.

2. ???

3. Profit.

 

...it is evident that every Conquest week primarily becomes:

 

1. Conquest competing.

2. Crafting to win.

3. Profit.

 

While Bioware may enjoy the increased Cartel Market sales, player participation, credit sinks etc, tweaking the Conquest system will continue with player feedback. Perhaps also, as players, we can individually define and/or redefine what "winning" means to us in terms of our unique talents, treasures and time opportunity costs.

[Edzew]

You have obviously missed the point of the post. Perhaps I am just wasting my time with these kinds of petitions. The player base is too thick to understand simple logic.

 

yes! yes you are! these biodrones can not think for themselves nor take any kind of criticism even if its constructive.

 

im actually surprised someone hasn't accused you of being a SWG fanboi and to go play the EMU

[azudelphi]

yes! yes you are! these biodrones can not think for themselves nor take any kind of criticism even if its constructive.

 

im actually surprised someone hasn't accused you of being a SWG fanboi and to go play the EMU

 

Yay! Biodrones! That gives me bingo on my SWTOR forums card!

[Jadescythe]

yes! yes you are! these biodrones can not think for themselves nor take any kind of criticism even if its constructive.

 

im actually surprised someone hasn't accused you of being a SWG fanboi and to go play the EMU

 

Obviously you're a SWG nerd, why don't you go play the emu?

[oofalong]

As I have stated repeatedly, these are two separate issues.

 

1. Fix crafting to be in-line (not over-nerfed) with other conquest activities, with distinct advantages given to distinct activities in different themed weeks.

 

2. Implement a system to make smaller guilds able to compete.

 

Not to further derail this thread, but I think addressing these two issues are of the utmost importance to ensure Conquests remain a fun and worthwhile aspect of the game.

 

Personally, I wouldn't worry about solving the first until the second has been sorted out. It seems an obvious way to resolve the second point is to normalize the points based on potential based on guild size. As others have pointed out, this would unfairly favor small, but intensely dedicated guilds. Thus, I would imagine you would need to introduce the concept of a multiplier based on the size of the guild. I don't think we can really quantify these values as we don't have access to the data like BioWare does. In any event, I expect such a system would be somewhat exploitable as well; that is, I am sure there would be an optimal guild size and involvement level.

 

Oh and just to make this post on topic, the amount of time to earn X conquest point via crafting is always less than the amount of time necessary to earn the same number of conquest points via any other means assuming you are maximizing your potential. In addition to this, crafting allows you to multi-task when earning conquest points such as crafting and doing Flashpoints. These factors combine to make crafting to strong in Conquests. This has been a well established fact, and arguing against it is futile and a waste of time. (So is defending it as anyone who is arguing against it is trolling or unable to comprehend the mechanics involved.)

 

That said, maximizing your crafting consumes resources other than your time; specifically, it consumes materials. Generating materials comes from buying them or harvesting them (whether it is via crew missions or open world). This fact introduces some difficult-to-quantify elements into the "Is Crafting to Win™ intended?" debate. If anything this point should be the focus of the thread/debate going forward.

[JMagee]

Not to further derail this thread, but I think addressing these two issues are of the utmost importance to ensure Conquests remain a fun and worthwhile aspect of the game.Personally, I wouldn't worry about solving the first until the second has been sorted out. It seems an obvious way to resolve the second point is to normalize the points based on potential based on guild size.

.

 

I agree that there are some scoring "issues" that probably could be addressed, but unfortunately, just as water always finds its own level, people/guilds that are dedicated to Conquest will always find a way to work the system to maximize their conquest potential, as they should.

 

I don't know how you could fairly work in a modifier to scores. Normalize by active accounts/Participating accounts/guild size all have issues with the possibility of Conquest centered guilds "cutting the fat" if it negatively impacts their score. The way this system is now, there's no penalty for lack of participation (which is a good thing) but if there suddenly became a negative impact on having "deadweight" I think it makes the system even worse. Or if I want to only run an FP or two on a character in a given week, having a low score negatively impact the guild is not good either.

 

Personally, I think it's still too early to make sweeping changes, but I will ask the Triumph/WOOK people in this thread, will you ever try and conquer planets you've already "won" once you've unlocked all of the conquest achievements? I think the dynamic/meta may still shift once some of the heavy-hitters aren't as committed to the new shiny of achievements/prestige/titles.

[Ruskaeth]

Doing those story modes is easier than crafting. Having to acquire mats, make credits, farm nodes, send companions to missions. Certainly, crafting is more work and trouble than running that story mode operation. Geez, DPSes queuing as tanks, one healer, 7 dpses and bosses dying so fast half the mechanics are ignored.

[JattaGin]

For 2 years or so, people complained that crafting needs some loving. Now we got a massive update for crafters. And people complain about it.

 

That's quite exactly I thought the Swtor playerbase would react.

 

My guild reached position 10 again last week. None of us crafted anything. We were super happy and proud that we made it, even with so few people. Oh, and we had fun, too.

[Jadescythe]

For 2 years or so, people complained that crafting needs some loving. Now we got a massive update for crafters. And people complain about it.

 

That's quite exactly I thought the Swtor playerbase would react.

 

My guild reached position 10 again last week. None of us crafted anything. We were super happy and proud that we made it, even with so few people. Oh, and we had fun, too.

 

I think crafters wanted a more engaging system, not to force every guild trying to be at the top of the leaderboards in conquest to non-stop craft.

[psandak]

the stupidity and/or ignorance on the first 3 pages is so great i had to stop reading. The op is 100% correct.

 

"if you don't like the way conquest is setup, then don't participate" - i enjoy conquest very much, specifically the direct competition between guilds and the opportunity for all guild members to participate and work towards a common guild goal. The system just simply needs to be improved due to extreme imbalance in its point structure.

 

As a member of a guild that has won 4 conquests, there is no question that the guild that crafts the most... Wins. One week we fought a guild that did nothing but craft; they had top score that week on server. They were a cross faction guild that only logged over to craft and then logged back to their imp toons. The majority of the time when you searched for their guild, no members were online. One or two would login for about 3 min. And the score would jump up, then they would log off again. It was an awesome move by them but at the same time only crafting and doing nothing else should not lead to a victory. During the trade emporium yes, but not every week.

 

I think the numbers the op posted speak for themselves, although some people don't seem to understand that reality. The amount of points these two guilds earned this last week is unbelievable and quite frankly rather unsettling to be honest. I do not envy their time spent in the race to first.

 

People need to understand that crafting is its own animal separate from the other ways to earn points and should be balanced accordingly. I can craft while simultaneously earning points via the other methods be it pvp, gsf, or fp/ops. But the issue is the amount of points earned via crafting out weights all other methods by an unreasonable amount, to the point where your time is better spent gathering mats than doing anything else. Points rewarded for crafting need to be cut in half, if not more.

 

amen!

[DarkDecimator]

As my signature says, I'm the GM of a guild called <The Drunk Tanks> on the Shadowlands. Not gonna lie, I didn't read this whole thread, but here's my two cents. Compared to the other conquest "powerhouses" on The Shadowlands, TDT is a small guild, about 109 active accounts. Where as Triumph, Wook, ORD, and the other big hitters are usually closer to 200+. However, we've now conquered two planets, Quesh (which was openly contested), and Balmorra (Empire only). We're proof that guild size doesn't mean everything, but that's really only because we craft.

 

We've won because of four main things: we have lots of alts, we craft a lot, we're not afraid to dump a few million credits, and we damn sure want to win. I like that the crafting gives sheer numbers a little less weight in conquest. But at the same time the system isn't perfect. We could never compete against Wook or Triumph if they went balls-to-the-walls like they did this week. At the same time, I'd like to not have to essentially "buy" planets.

 

So I'd like to make a suggestion as to how to improve the system. I have no idea as to how viable it would be, or if it's even possible to do, but it's at least something to think about. Having objectives based on percentage of guild participation would favor us littler guys (fewer people easier to raise %). Obviously you couldn't base all conquest around percentage of participation, because that screws the big guys. So what would the viability of a hybrid be? Some objectives based on how many times you do them, some objectives based on what % of people do them, and obviously weight them with points.

 

-EDIT- Spelling

Edited September 29, 2014 by DarkDecimator

[ParagonAX]

For 2 years or so, people complained that crafting needs some loving. Now we got a massive update for crafters. And people complain about it.

 

That's quite exactly I thought the Swtor playerbase would react.

 

My guild reached position 10 again last week. None of us crafted anything. We were super happy and proud that we made it, even with so few people. Oh, and we had fun, too.

 

No-one in this thread said anything that crafting shouldn't play a rightful role in conquest.

 

The fact of matter is, crafting is ridiculously overpowered in terms of gaining conquest points. Way more than any other activity, in any week, theme, or planet. See OP for maths proof.

 

To quote myself, I had suggested:

 

Fix crafting to be in-line (not over-nerfed) with other conquest activities, with distinct advantages given to distinct activities in different themed weeks.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ParagonAX

[aeterno]

As I have stated repeatedly, these are two separate issues.

 

1. Fix crafting to be in-line (not over-nerfed) with other conquest activities, with distinct advantages given to distinct activities in different themed weeks.

 

2. Implement a system to make smaller guilds able to compete.

 

Except they're not two separate issues when one specifically mitigates the other.

 

Fact is this situation of 2 guilds pushing each other to the limit happened 1 time on 1 planet on 1 server. Looking at results on mine 5-8mil points netted a win on each of the planets.

 

Crafting by the most part enables smaller guilds with dedicated crafters to make up bodies and have a shot at top 10. And I'd argue top 10 chasing not devolving into a pure "body count" game is more important for the system at present than the things 2 guilds are willing to put each other through for rank 1.

 

 

As long as the "planetary conquest system" is this ludicrous point chasing exercise we'll be having folks crying foul asking for change to their particular irk on any given week while the rest "we're not against fixing I just dunno how, but I do know what would hit the spot for me personally, make it happen plox" lol.

 

They should "fix" this by making warhammer keep assault-esque capture points on multiple locations on each planet. But that would like require work.

Edited September 29, 2014 by aeterno

[ivanhedgehog]

Nope PVP and PVE Spam are victory routes too.

 

only if you are mathematically challenged.

[ivanhedgehog]

When you write a grocery list you are moving a pencil across some paper. When you author a novel you are moving a pencil across some paper. Same thing...now who wants to turn my grocery list into a best seller?

 

It was a dark and stormy night in the produce section...the carrots shivered in fear in their spot next to the rutabegas as they knew the morning would bring a terrible slicing. The celery was crying softly in their beds waiting for their turn at the knife.......

 

I think we have a winner here!!! Im off to finish the great american shopping novel!!!

[Failtima]

Personally I enjoy seeing two or more mega guilds going at it over a world rather than always avoiding each other from week to week. Go ahead craft, craft, craft, fight it out. I'll watch their insane scores and laugh my arse off at the insane number of credits spent.

 

Feels like a big part of what the OP really had a problem with was the amount of crafting conquest points needed to beat a competitive guild rather than just coast to an easy win.

 

Being resigned to always easily making the top ten but never having a chance at #1 takes off any real pressure to produce conquest points. Earning enough for top ten is easy peasy.

 

So go ahead, run yourselves into the ground.

 

Although it's not like the mega guilds will ever regularly directly compete often at all, there's no smart percentage in doing so.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Failtima

[zufr]

I really like conquests the way they are, and for the most part things have not gotten as bad on my server as on the Shadowlands. However on balance the OP is probably right. Crafting is a great source of points, and is the best route to victory no matter the week.

 

I don't think it's quite as bad as they make out, as there is a bit of handwaving going on regarding how easy it is to acquire the mats for at least 25,000 war supplies - which is my estimate for what it took to get to over 40 million points.

 

But a bit of a nerf / tweak to the system seems necessary.