Bioware: Is Crafting to Win™ intended?

[ParagonAX]

No need to post numbers, it's simply a fact that Crafting, PVE and PVP are all many different ways to achieve victory.

 

Sigh.

[MillionsKNives]

It was the only way to win because your competitor had the same philosophy.

 

So it's their fault for using the most efficient means in a competition? No, it's BioWare's fault for making crafting by and far the most efficient way to earn points.

[Leafy_Bug]

No need to post numbers, it's simply a fact that Crafting, PVE and PVP are all many different ways to achieve victory.

 

 

Wrong as you were told already. PVE and PVP will not win you a planet when your opponent will do more points than you via Crafting.

[ML_DoubleTap]

No need to post numbers, it's simply a fact that Crafting, PVE and PVP are all many different ways to achieve victory.

 

There is absolutely a need to post numbers, and when you do you'll find that it is impossible to come close to the amount of points that crafting allows.

[ML_DoubleTap]

It was the only way to win because your competitor had the same philosophy.

 

It's the only philosophy if you want to win. You can put up numbers orders of magnitude greater with crafting than any other means.

[DOHboy]

Nope PVP and PVE Spam are victory routes too.

 

Next weeks post...

 

Bioware: Is PVP to Win™ intended?

 

*see image*

 

guild with 500 members queued for nothing but warzones 24/7 6 days straight and we only barely won because guild #2 was lazy and slept.

 

Is this working as intended, don't want to brag...

 

 

 

[azudelphi]

So it's their fault for using the most efficient means in a competition? No, it's BioWare's fault for making crafting by and far the most efficient way to earn points.

 

Efficient but costly. Not everyone has the infrastructure to win by that route. I am not blaming anyone, so not sure why you are using the word, "fault"...

 

Two very large guilds decided to invade the same planet. Both started adding crafting into the mix to keep up points. Both crafted their totals up and up because that's what the other was doing. Efficient? Absolutely. Costly? Absolutely.

 

OP admits 500 mil. Crafting may be point efficient, but that's one hell of a cost to absorb for that efficiency.

[Brewski]

Nope PVP and PVE Spam are victory routes too.

 

To be fair, crafting has the benefit of not needing an active player logged in to make points. Once can log in every four hours or so on each toon and gain the crafting points, whereas PvP and PvE options all require the user to be logged in and playing, and you are limited to one toon at a time.

 

Crafting is one of many paths to winning, but at the moment, it's also the easiest and most efficient by several factors. The only limitation is the cost, which makes it an excellent money sink, which may be the point.

 

However it doesn't take away the fact that at the moment, buying your conquest is the easiest way to get it.

[Darth_Wicked]

The issue -- IMHO anyway -- is that upon reading what the OP originally wrote, it comes across as complaining over the fact they can't sustain their crafting effort for much longer, seeing that it is prohibitively expensive.

 

If the OP still had a gazillion credits to waste on crafting, with the rest of his guild, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have posted to complain about it.

 

Instead, he would continue posting something akin to what he did on Reddit, namely the "Epic Battle of <insert name of the planet here>".

Edited September 29, 2014 by Darth_Wicked

[Leafy_Bug]

The issue -- IMHO anyway -- is that upon reading what the OP originally wrote, it comes across as complaining over the fact they can't sustain their crafting effort for much longer, seeing that it is prohibitively expensive.

 

If the OP still had a gazillion credits to waste on crafting, with the rest of his guild, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have posted to complain about it.

 

Instead, he would be posting something akin to what he did on Reddit, namely the "Epic Battle of <insert name of the planet here>".

 

 

 

Extracting that from his post, whilst valid, does not deter from the big issue the conquest system has. He who crafts the most wins. It is this simple. I don't think it is your business what he and his guild will do from now on. He raised the issue of crafting and its efficiency compared to everything else.

[TheWookiee]

My guess is Bioware made an assumption that eventually all the extra mats hanging out there would get cleared out, and the crafting to win option would no longer be viable. However, the problem with that is that mats are restorable, so although it lessens the numbers over times a bit, it doesn't eliminate the method, just makes it slightly more difficult. (Instead of using up stashed mats, you actually need to save them up and plan when to use them.)

 

The same problem was pointed out with repeatable FP objectives, which they removed, and PvP, which although a good way to farm points, is at least limited to one toon at a time, and only when you can actively play, whereas crafting can be completed on every toon you have, and while offline.

 

I have doubt there will be adjustments, but I'm not sure how they can "fix" crafting without completely nerfing it. PvE and PvP objectives all have daily/weekly missions you can tie repeatable objectives to in order to limit them, but crafting does not, so they would have to put the limitations into the conquest system itself.

 

I can gather enough mats to have a min 8 toons hit the weekly cap each week so the resource exhaustion is not really an issue. It's not even that time consuming. Really, my only limiting factor is credits to run the missions which also isn't really an issue. A dedicated crafter is more than capable of turning out incredible amounts of conquest points. I do see a nerf to this in the future, however. My guess is a daily cap or even a weekly limit.

[Orizuru]

Firstly, a little show and tell: http://i.imgur.com/qByDWNf.png

 

I did not show that to boast. In fact, most of my guild is sick and tired of Bioware's conquest system, and it's insane preference towards crafting. Some of my guildies were so stressed all week they were dreaming of mats in their sleep. I never want to see another War Supply again.

 

The conquest system does have some merit. I love the fact that there is a different "theme" each week that encourages players of all types to explore content they otherwise would not be inclined to play.

 

However, the fact of the matter is, no matter what "theme", nothing comes close to crafting when a guild wants to win at conquest.

 

For example, let's do a little maths on last week's Flaspoint Havoc conquest (numbers do not include stronghold bonus):

 

Playing via "theme" aka Flashpoints:

• 2k points per FP daily
  
• 3 dailies per toon
  
• Let's assume another 2k points per toon per day based on one-time completion bonuses for certain flashpoints and bonus bosses
  
• Let's assume another 1k for other misc. activities such as operations weeklies
  
• That gives us a grand total of 9k conquest points per toon per day
  

 

Playing via crafting

• 1k points per War Supply
  
• 5 crafters can be sent out at once per toon
  
• ~50 mins per War Supply
  
• ~28*5 = 140 War Supplies per day per toon
  
• That gives us a grand total of 140k conquest points per toon per day
  

 

9k vs. 140k conquest points per toon per day. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Now, you may say, crafting takes materials and credits. We get it. But the fact of the matter is:

• No matter which week, no matter what kind of "theme", be it FPs, operations, warzones, non of that matters
  
• The only way to win against an equally determined guild is to craft to victory, not to play the game
  

 

For our victory against Wook, we sank mats and credits totalling ~500 million. I am not complaining about that. We understood what needed to be done and did it.

 

My only question to Bioware: is Crafting to Win™ intended?

 

How sustainable is this though?

 

If your guild and the second place guild continue to compete like this in the weeks to come, how many weeks can your guild stay in the race before the guild and it's players are out of credits and mats?

 

Not trying to sway the debate one way or another. I'm just curious how long a large and wealthy guild might possible sustain this type of activity.

[ParagonAX]

The issue -- IMHO anyway -- is that upon reading what the OP originally wrote, it comes across as complaining over the fact they can't sustain their crafting effort for much longer, seeing that it is prohibitively expensive.

 

If the OP still had a gazillion credits to waste on crafting, with the rest of his guild, I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have posted to complain about it.

 

Instead, he would continue posting something akin to what he did on Reddit, namely the "Epic Battle of <insert name of the planet here>".

 

You can choose what you want to believe. The reason I made for the post was to urge BW to make some changes to the system.

 

I personally do not have a gazillion credits. But my guild collectively have several orders of magnitude more than 500 mil, and we will do it over and over again if necessary to win.

 

But that does not change the fact that crafting to win is wrong, IMHO. And the reason why it's wrong is not because crafting is bad in itself, but rather that nothing comes even remotely close to crafting if you want conquest points.

[Darth_Wicked]

Extracting that from his post, whilst valid, does not deter from the big issue the conquest system has. He who crafts the most wins. It is this simple. I don't think it is your business what he and his guild will do from now on. He raised the issue of crafting and its efficiency compared to everything else.

 

He raised the issue because both he and his guild can't keep up much longer, nothing more. If he could persist in spamming crafting to oblivion to conquer planets, I'm sure he would.

[ParagonAX]

Next weeks post...

 

Bioware: Is PVP to Win™ intended?

 

*see image*

 

guild with 500 members queued for nothing but warzones 24/7 6 days straight and we only barely won because guild #2 was lazy and slept.

 

Is this working as intended, don't want to brag...

 

 

 

PvP points have been nerfed signifcantly by absolute numbers.

 

PvE points have been nerfed significantly as well by making FP / operations non-repeatable.

[CaptRogue]

Again, that is not the point. The point is crafting is the only way to win. I did not say anywhere that BW should get rid of crafting. Players of all kinds should be able to play the kind of content they want.

 

In fact, there are conquest weeks (such as the Trade Emporium) that encourages crafting. That is perfectly fine.

 

The problem becomes when crafting is the only way to win no matter what week and what theme the current conquest is.

 

Crafting is not the only way to win. You keep saying that, but it's not true.

My pub guild is one of the biggest if not the biggest on my server. We won Balmorra this week. We've won every planet we've went after since it began.

BUT not by crafting unless it was crafting week. Yes I'm sure different players crafted to get their personal goals to a point or all the way. But the guild by far & large did the "what was intended" route this past week. Flashpoints, Galactic Starfighter, Operations, etc...

There was constant group finders being ran. GSF groups queing. Flashpoint groups running! We didn't all sit in the ship after doing the one time FP's on a toon & craft.

Just sounds like you & your guild really didn't want to run multiple toons through GSF, or operations. You'd rather spend the creds to get mats & craft your way to the top, then complain because it cost you so much.

That's all on you. BW made a way to win without crafting 24/7 for a whole week.

[ChroniKill]

I agree, there is a huge bias towards crafting. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but besides a bit of cash, the rewards for conquests are pretty mediocre, no?

 

Personally I think the bigger issue is that planet invasions are massively skewed towards huge guilds with no chance of a smaller guild winning.

Edited September 29, 2014 by ChroniKill

[ParagonAX]

I agree, there is a huge bias towards crafting. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but besides a bit of cash, the rewards for conquests are pretty mediocre, no?

 

Personally I think the bigger issue is that planet invasions are massively skewed towards huge guilds with no chance of a smaller guild winning.

 

I agree with all your points. To us winning is not about the rewards, but rather winning itself.

 

I also agree with the big guild bias. But that is a different story, another one for BW to (never) solve.

[Zoom_VI]

He raised the issue because both he and his guild can't keep up much longer, nothing more. If he could persist in spamming crafting to oblivion to conquer planets, I'm sure he would.

 

Someone gets it. Crafting is allowed to be so effective because it is not sustainable. The credit requirement is too high, and the only means to replenish credits does not give conquest points.

[Brewski]

I can gather enough mats to have a min 8 toons hit the weekly cap each week so the resource exhaustion is not really an issue. It's not even that time consuming. Really, my only limiting factor is credits to run the missions which also isn't really an issue. A dedicated crafter is more than capable of turning out incredible amounts of conquest points. I do see a nerf to this in the future, however. My guess is a daily cap or even a weekly limit.

 

Yeah, a weekly limit or per toon limit is the only practical way, but I'm not sure those mechanics are in place. The other limitations you see are all on a per quest/objective completion or a per run basis. Without daily or weekly crafting missions, I'm not sure they can limit it without completely nerfing it.

 

Probably the best they could do would be to spread out crafting objectives and limit the effect. Maybe splitting them up into a variety of missions that vary every conquest:

• Repeatable mission dropped to 100 conquest points per item.
  
• Repeatable/Nonrepeatable (depending on the week.) "10 items crafted" for an extra 1000/2000 points.
  
• Nonrepeatable objectives for each item type for 2000 points. (Like what they do with Invasion Force now, only additional rewards for each type.)
  

 

Note: I am a crafter, and fully enjoy the benefit of being able to craft my way through any conquest I want if I don't have the time or inclination to complete a weekly conquest. Although I don't want it nerfed bad enough that people (including myself) can't with effort craft their way through each week, I do think the current imbalance between crafting as a route needs some adjustments.

[Grayseven]

Our guild has made the leaderboard each week through a combination of Conquest goals, but we discussed internally (and with a little awe) the battle between WOOK and Triumph this week.

 

We watched as both guilds racked up huge numbers knowing that the reason for these numbers was crafting since it is the only way in which a guild can see numbers ten times higher than their 3rd place competitor.

 

As a guild, we've concluded that we will not see a Conquest victory under these conditions. We simply don't see the point in it. We craft only to round out our personal Conquest totals and refuse to waste materials trying to "win" a title and the ego boost that comes with a first place finish.

 

The prizes for first place aren't worth it. The boredom of grinding materials and queuing up endless crafting missions isn't worth it. The cost isn't worth the return.

 

I assume that EA/BW is watching these each week and discussing adjustments to the system much as they've already adjusted PvP and PvE objectives, but until they make a move we should all understand that crafting will reign as the deciding factor between finishes.

[ParagonAX]

Someone gets it. Crafting is allowed to be so effective because it is not sustainable. The credit requirement is too high, and the only means to replenish credits does not give conquest points.

 

Maybe you are right. Despite what you (or the person you quoted) thinks though, crafting is totally sustainable for us, base on our collective wealth.

 

All I want is for BW to say whether or not this is intended.

 

Hey, for all I know BW may come out and say "Hey players! Crafting to win is absolutely intended! We want it to be a massive credit and mats sink! Craft away while we laugh at you in our offices!"

Edited September 29, 2014 by ParagonAX

[zufr]

Before I give my opinion, I have a question. Where did all the mats come from? Yes, if you send out all your companions to make war supplies, you can generate points very quickly. However, it take about an hour's worth of gathering to get the mats. If you buy the mats from the GTN, the cost can range from maybe 20K to 50K.

 

What was the GTN like on your server? With two guilds going at it like that, did the war supplies mats shoot up in price?

 

I ask these questions in good faith. Some info about me and my guild: We've won a planet on four of the six weeks. We lost the Trade Emporium week by a tiny amount. We thought that we had won, but the (smaller) guild behind us used a big crafting bomb in the final few minutes to add close to a million points that we had no time to respond to.

[Brewski]

Someone gets it. Crafting is allowed to be so effective because it is not sustainable. The credit requirement is too high, and the only means to replenish credits does not give conquest points.

 

Although crafting on this scale is not sustainable, there is a sustainable level you can hit, since credits can be earned while your toons are crafting, and crafting can be completed on multiple toons while offline.

 

I agree that the levels we've seen in the early conquests will eventually lower. However, I think we will also see that crafting will still be the most efficient method for making points indefinitely without some adjustments being made. As I said, it's the offline and repeatable on each toon components that make this different than spamming PvP/PvE objectives.

[OMGitsCHARLIE]

Just sounds like you & your guild really didn't want to run multiple toons through GSF, or operations. You'd rather spend the creds to get mats & craft your way to the top, then complain because it cost you so much.

That's all on you. BW made a way to win without crafting 24/7 for a whole week.

 

The funny thing is that my guild had people running operations, pvp, and flashpoints and if we only had to do those things to win, we would. However it doesn't play out like that, at the end of the day (or week) it comes down to crafting. It's not like there was an unspoken truce between competitive guilds to not craft and see who could win via other means. If one guild falls behind they would inevitably have to resort to crafting and any sort of close battle would turn into a crafting war supplemented with the other fp/pvp/gsf objectives.