Sentinel/Marauder 3.0 Discussion/Wishlist Thread

[TACeMossie]

and you cant tell me that Combat is supposed to be the hybrid sustained/burst tree... if you are, i'm going to assume you are a complete moron.

 

Because I didn't open the thread before im gonna respond to this now:

 

Annihilation/Watchman is intended to be the top sustained damage spec for Marauders/Sentinels, while Carnage/Combat is meant to be better sustained damage than Rage/Focus (but worse than Annihilation/Watchman) and better burst damage than Annihilation/Watchman (but worse than Rage/Focus). As a result, the top damage over an extended period should go to Annihilation/Watchman. The top damage in a short fight should go to Rage/Focus. Carnage/Combat should hold its own in both situations, while not being the best at either – think of its strength as versatility.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=669516

 

You should stop playing the game now, because "Its developed by Morons"

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Because I didn't open the thread before im gonna respond to this now:

 

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=669516

 

You should stop playing the game now, because "Its developed by Morons"

 

I know that that quote exists. and ive read it multiple times... but, it's stupid design. Carnage should = Burst, Anni = Sustained and Rage = AOE, that's how it is for snipers... MM = Burst Engi = AOE and Lethality = Sustained. Why cant we leave carnage as the sole burst tree? it doesnt need to have a hybrid style.. it should be a pure Burst tree like Deception or MM. And Rage shouldnt EVER become our pure Burst tree, it should stay in it's AOE place, all it needs is more Damage on Sweeping Slash, and Sweeping Slash to give the CD reduction on Obliderate and Smash, and it's the Mara's new AOE DPS tree... add on some damage to Force Charge and Dual Saber Throw, and we have a good AOE Tree! (Why Force Charge? well, it's damage is piss poor, and it's our initation skill... why does that have to be?)

[KeyboardNinja]

I know that that quote exists. and ive read it multiple times... but, it's stupid design. Carnage should = Burst, Anni = Sustained and Rage = AOE, that's how it is for snipers... MM = Burst Engi = AOE and Lethality = Sustained. Why cant we leave carnage as the sole burst tree? it doesnt need to have a hybrid style.. it should be a pure Burst tree like Deception or MM. And Rage shouldnt EVER become our pure Burst tree, it should stay in it's AOE place, all it needs is more Damage on Sweeping Slash, and Sweeping Slash to give the CD reduction on Obliderate and Smash, and it's the Mara's new AOE DPS tree... add on some damage to Force Charge and Dual Saber Throw, and we have a good AOE Tree! (Why Force Charge? well, it's damage is piss poor, and it's our initation skill... why does that have to be?)

 

Rage is remarkably good burst, even single target. I don't think it's as high as Carnage (given that Carnage's burst window is a 44% damage increase for 4.5s, while Rage is only 9% for 6s), and now that Carnage has the ability to move around its burst arbitrarily, there is really no particular advantage to Rage's brand of burst, but it is there. I don't see a problem with the design intent floating around it.

 

Engineering is a profoundly weird tree. It is an AoE tree, but it's almost exclusively an AoE DoT/sustain tree, which is unique in the game. I'm not even just talking about Plasma Probe. Grenade spam, which is one of the highest AoE DPS rotations in the game, is very very steady, sustained damage. There aren't a lot of burst moments. Rage achieves the same thing in one gigantic spike once every 10 seconds, followed by 8.5 seconds of single-target. Thus, any comparison between Engineering and Rage is going to be quite tenuous.

[Rhylass]

Greetings, watchmen.

I only comment on PvP here, cos that's where I come from.

Understand, I am very happy with the resend changes. Inside a good team, the spec is a great addition, powerful and versatile.

 

In the light of this, I don't see a cause, or urge to change much, if anything! There had been a long time, Watchman underperformed notoriously in PvP. All on your own, you'll accomplish naught. Hard hitting watchmen usually generate a lot of agro, your a focus. So, if you like to listen Devs, give us either more "time", or, burst our critical (might)hit chance, slightly.

 

Watch out!

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Rage is remarkably good burst, even single target. I don't think it's as high as Carnage (given that Carnage's burst window is a 44% damage increase for 4.5s, while Rage is only 9% for 6s), and now that Carnage has the ability to move around its burst arbitrarily, there is really no particular advantage to Rage's brand of burst, but it is there. I don't see a problem with the design intent floating around it.

 

Engineering is a profoundly weird tree. It is an AoE tree, but it's almost exclusively an AoE DoT/sustain tree, which is unique in the game. I'm not even just talking about Plasma Probe. Grenade spam, which is one of the highest AoE DPS rotations in the game, is very very steady, sustained damage. There aren't a lot of burst moments. Rage achieves the same thing in one gigantic spike once every 10 seconds, followed by 8.5 seconds of single-target. Thus, any comparison between Engineering and Rage is going to be quite tenuous.

 

I see Engi as more bursty because of Explosive Probe, Orbital Strike (Yes, laugh at me, i still use OS... now sit down...) and Thermal Grenade. But that's my outlook on the spec.

 

Anyways.

 

We should be focusing on the specs.

 

Watchman: I cant think of anything except an easy way at the start of a fight or during a big downtime section E.G CZero where you cant get Merciless and Juyo stacks to get them all back. So why not give Valorus Call the ability to do that? Past that, nothing much else is needed.

 

Carnage: This spec... Let me start with the things i LIKE. A. Love the return of the 100% Crit Scream proc chance, that was sorely needed. That's the end of the things i like... Here's the things that should be fixed/return. A. Add 9% Strength bonus to Narrowed Hatred. B. Either Change Gore, or bring back Double Gore. Here's my idea for a good change to Gore.

 

Gore:

 

Cost: 1 Rage

Cooldown 15 Seconds (Reduced to 10.5 by talents)

 

Deals X-Y damage and grants the user Gore for 5 Seconds making the user unable to miss, be parried, shielded, defended or absorbed. (so, piercing all absorption shields INCLUDING Sorc Bubble, making a counter for that stupid ability... [seriously Bioware, God Bubble does nothing but prolong the envetible death of a sorc, remove it and mace sorcs a new BETTER DCD.])

 

This change would make Gore more useful than it already is, making it so that Gore has about a 5.5 second downtime, also Gore would be added to Sever's Surge bonus because it's not that harmful.

 

Also add Ataru Form Attacks to Sever's Surge Bonus. and Carnage would be a fine tree after that.

 

Rage: Rage tree... i love this tree but i also hate it... I mostly hate it because sometimes your Berserk doesnt line up 100% properly with your Smash and you sometimes have to delay Smash. Also, for PvP they made it into a joke... a simple fix would be to add Sweeping Slash to Brutality, Overpower, Force Lash and Enraged Slash and the AOE part of the Rage tree would be improved by a long shot. that and increase Force Lash's damage by like 30%. and give Smash a 35% chance to produce a 2nd shockwave that deals 50% the damage, and our AOE tree is again an AOE tree.

[AngusFTW]

All watchman/annihilation really needs in pvp is some form of protection against this games multitude of aoe slows/roots or even stuns. Its the only spec that has no protection against this but is the spec that is most shutdown by it since it needs to stay on a target the longest to get max dps. The spec has massive dmg potential.. as is though.

 

I mean as combat/carnage sure, it sucks to get stunned, but if you get white barred in team play (well.. regs ) and your'e still alive... someones gonna die in 4 seconds xD and the root breaker/slow break on camo is just sooooooo invaluable for pvp this game has much aoe slows...

 

Though SAYING that while i don't think the surviveability of the class is as bad as people make out i think in combat/carnage especially, A reduced dmg while stunned talent like ap/balance would be a good addition since the spec is so easily locked out by stuns...but in a spec with so much burst cc immunity would be a bit.. damn op xD

Edited October 1, 2014 by AngusFTW

[KnightTyler]

Ive thought for a while for a way to fix Focus/Rage so that it still remains the "Burst" king for Sentinels/Marauders and Guardians/Juggernauts, and I've come up with a solution that I think could bring the spec back. Watchman and Vigilance were always intended to be the best Sustained Spec and worst Burst, Combat was intended to have good Burst and good Sustained, not best at one but good at both, and Focus was intended to be best Burst and worst sustained. Any place where you see X is just a variable that would have to be calculated carefully as to not make anything overpowered. Ive tried to stay with the theme of the spec dealing AoE damage followed by a series of single target melee attacks so feel free to offer suggestions and let me know what you think.

 

NOTE: Zephyrean Slash would have to be rebalanced though I am not quite sure how. My first thought was to add some form of RNG to it, For instance: While Shii-Cho Form is active, all Strike abilities, Slash, and Dispatch have a [23%/45%] chance to finish the cooldown on Blade Storm. Blade Storm has a [50%/100%] chance to reduce the active cooldown of Force Sweep by [0.5 seconds / 1 second].

 

NOTE: Singularity Field pulse damage does not modify from Force Sweep crits or Autocrit. It modifies from the lowest damage pre-crit hit of Force Sweep on enemies. The pulse's themselves DO have a chance to crit on each target individually though.

 

Sentinel

 

 

• Force Leap is now a Force-type attack instead of melee.
  

 

 

 

Focus

 

 

• Force Health talent- additionally causes Twin Saber Throw to provide a (50/100%) chance to grant Felling Blow Autocrit of Force Sweep on the Primary Target. *Felling Blow does not apply to secondary targets*
   
   
  
• Singularity talent has been redesigned.
  Singularity- Zen in Shii-Cho Form provides (1/2/3) stacks of Singularity and reduces the focus cost of Force Sweep by (11%/22%/33%). Force Sweep now leaves a damage-dealing Singularity field of force in its wake that pulses every 2 seconds for 6 seconds dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweeps original damage modified by the pulse damage increase. (6 seconds=3 hits=+11%,+22%,+33%). Singularity field damage increases 11% per pulse but can not exceed 33% unless procced with Felling Blow. If Force Sweep is used with 3 stacks of Singularity and if it hits a enemy who is affected by Felling Blow, the first pulse of the SIngularity field deals 99% damage and makes the field last (4) more seconds.(10 seconds=5 hits=+99%,+11%,+22%,+33%,+33%)
   
  Force Sweep with 3 Stacks of Singularity, NOT hitting a enemy under effects of Felling Blow: 1st pulse=11% more damage, 2nd pulse=22% more damage, 3rd pulse=33% more damage.
   
  Force Sweep with 3 Stacks of Singularity, hitting a enemy under effects of Felling Blow: 1st pulse=99% more damage, 2nd pulse=11% more damage, 3rd pulse=22% more damage, 4th pulse=33% more damage, 5th pulse=33% more damage.
   
  So it would go like this: Force Sweep hits enemies for (X), Autocrits enemy if under effects of Felling Blow. Checks for Singularity Stacks. If no Singularity stacks are present, the Singularity Field does not activate. If Singularity stacks are present, Singularity Field activates and damage is scaled based off number of stacks present. 2 seconds later, the First Pulse would tick right where the Force Sweep initially hit, dealing (22%/44%66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +11% (or +99% if Force Sweep hit a enemy under the effects of Felling Blow.) 2 seconds later the 2nd pulse would hit, dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweeps original damage +22% (or +11% if Force Sweep hit a enemy under the effects of Felling Blow). 2 seconds later the 3rd pulse would hit dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +33% (or +22% if Force Sweep hit a enemy under the effects of Felling Blow). If no enemy was hit that had the Felling Blow effect the pulse ends. If a enemy was hit that had the Felling Blow effect, then 2 seconds after 3rd pulse the 4th pulse would hit dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +33%. 2 seconds later the 5th and Final Pulse would hit dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +33%.
   
  *Ive had this idea for a while and my first thought was just making Force Sweep leave a field for all Knights and just add a modifier for each stance to it in the trees so that each specs Force Sweep worked differently, but I haven't really made any progress as to which spec should get what so for now we will just consider Focus Spec. Ive seen this ability numerous times throughout questing and I found a video online that shows what Im talking about.
  * $ I cant get Youtube to give me the correct URL for the proper time so just scroll to 38:32 and watch the ability the NPC leaves on the ground $
   
  *The idea behind the Singularity Field's is what I like to call "Sustained Burst." Enemies have a chance to cleanse Singularity stacks from Zealous Leap if they choose to do so there is now counter-play. Now you don't have to worry about groups of 3 or 4 Sentinels/Marauders jumping to one target and LoLSMASHing because the pulse is in a set area, pulses every 2 seconds, and gives enemies the ability to move out of the Singularity field. The damage isn't frontloaded as it was before but it still maintains that feeling of Burst if you can keep your enemies inside the Singularity Field. This makes the Focus spec more team oriented because it is best combined with slows and stuns from teammates so that enemies remain in your Singularity Field. It would also provide a form of control for zones and utility for an ally. You could drop a Singularity Field on top of your healer and the enemy would have to choose to enter the field and take damage or attempt to counter in some way. Combining the new reworked Force Exhaustion with this would essentially make Focus have "Sustained Burst" damage through Singularity Field and also regular "Burst" damage through Force Exhaustion.*
   
   
  
• Felling Blow talent has been removed and replaced with Zealous Warp.
  Zealous Warp- Zealous Leap now deals (X-X) Kinetic damage every second for 3 seconds. Damage dealt by Zealous Warp has a (50%/100%) chance to build Singularity. *gives enemies a chance to cleanse themselves so that Singularity stacks don't build all the way from Zealous Leap, because it cant be cleansed from Zen*
   
   
  
• Agility Training has been merged into Gravity Defiance.
   
   
  
• Force Wake talent replaces Agility Training.
  Force Wake- Force Sweep no longer requires a primary Target. *allows Focus Sentinels ability to drop Singularity Fields anywhere to control areas*
   
   
  
• Heightened Power talent has been reworked.
  Heightened Power- Increases all damage dealt by (3%,6%,9%) while inside your Singularity Fields.
   
   
  
• Incisor talent has been reworked.
  Incisor- Force Leap and Zealous Leap have a (50%/100%) chance to grant Incisor, which makes your next Leg Slash cost no focus and activate with a 0.5 second GCD.
   
   
  
• Force Exhaustion no longer builds Singularity.
  Force Exhaustion- additionally enables Dispatch, reducing the GCD of Dispatch to 0.5 seconds and allows it to be used on a target with any health level for 6 seconds.
  OR
  Force Exhaustion- additionally grants Force Focus/Rage, increasing the damage of your next non-channeled, single target melee attack by (50%) or (X%). Lasts 4.5 seconds.
  

 

 

Guardian

 

 

• Force Leap is now a Force-type attack instead of melee.
   
   
  
• Saber Throw additionally deals (X-X) elemental damage over (X) seconds.
  

 

 

Focus

 

 

• Force Guard talent- additionally causes Saber Throw to provide a (50/100%) chance to grant Felling Blow Autocrit of Force Sweep on the Primary Target and reduces the cooldown of Saber Throw by (6/12) seconds. *Felling Blow does not apply to secondary targets*
   
   
  
• Singularity talent has been redesigned.
  Singularity- Zen in Shii-Cho Form provides (1/2/3) stacks of Singularity and reduces the focus cost of Force Sweep by(11%/22%/33%). Force Sweep now leaves a damage-dealing Singularity field of force in its wake that pulses every 2 seconds for 6 seconds dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage modified by the pulse damage increase. (6 seconds=3 hits=+11%,+22%,+33%). Singularity field damage increases 11% per pulse but can not exceed 33% unless procced with Felling Blow. If Force Sweep is used with 3 stacks of Singularity and if it hits a enemy who is affected by Felling Blow, the first pulse of the SIngularity field deals 99% damage and makes the field last (4) more seconds.(10 seconds=5 hits=+99%,+11%,+22%,+33%,+33%)
   
  Force Sweep with 3 Stacks of Singularity, NOT hitting a enemy under effects of Felling Blow: 1st pulse=11% more damage, 2nd pulse=22% more damage, 3rd pulse=33% more damage.
   
  Force Sweep with 3 Stacks of Singularity, hitting a enemy under effects of Felling Blow: 1st pulse=99% more damage, 2nd pulse=11% more damage, 3rd pulse=22% more damage, 4th pulse=33% more damage, 5th pulse=33% more damage.
   
  So it would go like this: Force Sweep hits enemies for (X), Autocrits enemy if under effects of Felling Blow. Checks for Singularity Stacks. If no Singularity stacks are present, the Singularity Field does not activate. If Singularity stacks are present, Singularity Field activates and damage is scaled based off number of stacks present. 2 seconds later, the First Pulse would tick right where the Force Sweep initially hit, dealing (22%/44%66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +11% (or +99% if Force Sweep hit a enemy under the effects of Felling Blow.) 2 seconds later the 2nd pulse would hit, dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweeps original damage +22% (or +11% if Force Sweep hit a enemy under the effects of Felling Blow). 2 seconds later the 3rd pulse would hit dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +33% (or +22% if Force Sweep hit a enemy under the effects of Felling Blow). If no enemy was hit that had the Felling Blow effect the pulse ends. If a enemy was hit that had the Felling Blow effect, then 2 seconds after 3rd pulse the 4th pulse would hit dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +33%. 2 seconds later the 5th and Final Pulse would hit dealing (22%/44%/66%) of Force Sweep's original damage +33%.
   
  *Ive had this idea for a while and my first thought was just making Force Sweep leave a field for all Knights and just add a modifier for each stance to it in the trees so that each specs Force Sweep worked differently, but I haven't really made any progress as to which spec should get what so for now we will just consider Focus Spec. Ive seen this ability numerous times throughout questing and I found a video online that shows what Im talking about.
  * $ I cant get Youtube to give me the correct URL for the proper time so just scroll to 38:32 and watch the ability the NPC leaves on the ground $
   
  *The idea behind the Singularity Field's is what I like to call "Sustained Burst." Enemies have a chance to cleanse Singularity stacks from Zealous Leap if they choose to do so there is now counter-play. Now you don't have to worry about groups of 3 or 4 Guardians/Juggernauts jumping to one target and LoLSMASHing because the pulse is in a set area, pulses every 2 seconds, and gives enemies the ability to move out of the Singularity field. The damage isn't frontloaded as it was before but it still maintains that feeling of Burst if you can keep your enemies inside the Singularity Field. This makes the Focus spec more team oriented because it is best combined with slows and stuns from teammates so that enemies remain in your Singularity Field. It would also provide a form of control for zones and utility for an ally. You could drop a Singularity Field on top of your healer and the enemy would have to choose to enter the field and take damage or attempt to counter in some way. Combining the new reworked Force Exhaustion with this would essentially make Focus have "Sustained Burst" damage through Singularity Field and also regular "Burst" damage through Force Exhaustion.*
   
   
  
• Felling Blow talent has been removed and replaced with Zealous Warp.
  Zealous Warp- Zealous Leap now deals (X-X) Kinetic damage every second for 3 seconds. Damage dealt by Zealous Warp has a (50%/100%) chance to build Singularity. *gives enemies a chance to cleanse themselves so that Singularity stacks don't build all the way from Zealous Leap, because it cant be cleansed from Zen*
   
   
  
• Agility Training has been merged into Gravity Defiance.
   
   
  
• Force Wake talent replaces Agility Training.
  Force Wake- Force Sweep no longer requires a primary Target. *allows Focus Guardians ability to drop Singularity Fields anywhere to control areas*
   
   
  
• Heightened Power talent has been reworked.
  Heightened Power- Increases all damage dealt by (3%,6%,9%) while inside your Singularity Fields.
   
   
  
• Force Lash- additionally causes Saber Throw's burn effect to apply to all enemies within (X) meters of Primary Target. Increases damage of Saber Throw's burn effect by (X%). *this allows Saber Throw to gain AoE damage similar to Twin Saber Throw. Burn damage can be increased in focus tree to match Twin Saber Throws regular damage since Saber Throw now applies a DoT for all Guardians*
   
   
  
• Force Exhaustion no longer builds Singularity.
  Force Exhaustion- additionally enables Dispatch, reducing the GCD of Dispatch to 0.5 seconds and allows it to be used on a target with any health level for 6 seconds.
  OR
  Force Exhaustion- additionally grants Force Focus/Rage, increasing the damage of your next non-channeled, single target melee attack by (50%) or (X%). Lasts 4.5 seconds.
  

 

Edited October 3, 2014 by KnightTyler

[DrMeth]

Inspiration is, as usual, really good. Considering what was mentioned about wanting to spread utility around all of the Damage Dealing specs of all the Avanced Classes, I would say it is too good. As long as burn phases or DPS checks remain a thing, people will want to take a Sent/Mara just for Inspiration. Considering it is a group buff, it ends up requiring the other DPS in a group to work their offensive cooldowns around to try and match them up with Inspiration. Therefore I think it should be removed from the game, with Transcendence being made Sentinels main utility ability with a baseline 80% speed boost for all specs. From there Damage could be easier balanced between AC's without having to count on the psychological factor Inspiration has on what class to bring to a raid.

I don't agree with this at all.

 

Raid groups bringing a marauder simply for bloodthirst is similar to the reasons why groups bring slingers/snipers for their shield during phases of intense raidwide damage. Or bringing stealth classes for stealth rez, an assassin tank for healing buff, etc.

 

Your argument is invalid.

[Rhylass]

All watchman/annihilation really needs in pvp is some form of protection against this games multitude of aoe slows/roots or even stuns. Its the only spec that has no protection against this but is the spec that is most shutdown by it since it needs to stay on a target the longest to get max dps. The spec has massive dmg potential.. as is though.

 

 

Though SAYING that while i don't think the surviveability of the class is as bad as people make out i think in combat/carnage especially,

 

 

Agreeing with this statement. PvP doesn't need much rework. Watchman is, a solid spec for PvP now. If the Devs keep the slows/stuns and roots for us, say like, to keep the watchman from target, a denial for (game)balance, as I sait, give us more "time" or a little more crit, wouldn't make it OP I think.

[Vodrin]

All watchman/annihilation really needs in pvp is some form of protection against this games multitude of aoe slows/roots or even stuns. Its the only spec that has no protection against this but is the spec that is most shutdown by it since it needs to stay on a target the longest to get max dps. The spec has massive dmg potential.. as is though.

 

I mean as combat/carnage sure, it sucks to get stunned, but if you get white barred in team play (well.. regs ) and your'e still alive... someones gonna die in 4 seconds xD and the root breaker/slow break on camo is just sooooooo invaluable for pvp this game has much aoe slows...

 

Though SAYING that while i don't think the surviveability of the class is as bad as people make out i think in combat/carnage especially, A reduced dmg while stunned talent like ap/balance would be a good addition since the spec is so easily locked out by stuns...but in a spec with so much burst cc immunity would be a bit.. damn op xD

 

I largely agree with all of this. for Watchman I would like to see is a change of Zealous Ward to a talent that makes Rebuke/Cloak of pain have a purge effect (would work wonders for the kiting issues Watchman has). For Combat I would like to see something that helps a little more with focus management. And for Focus I would like to see some of the previous burst potential brought back. You just don't see this spec used much anymore in PvP.

 

Additionally I would like to see Undying rage/GBTF reworked to make it more useful again. I think reverting it would be ok, but I do not think that BW will do this. Removing the health penalty altogether while making it only usable under 30% health and shortening the duration slightly would also be reasonable.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Vodrin

[Emperor-Norton]

Utility is something that helps keep the raid alive or helps your strategy for winning a fight. Taunts, Stealth Rez, Battle Rez, cleanse, Raid Shield are all cases of utility. They help you deal with mechanics or respond to mistakes in a fight. Doing lots of damage is not utility, it just determines how fast you manage to end a fight. Inspiration is not Utility. It is a raid wide version of Battle Focus that does help healing a bit, but almost never is it used with that in mind. All Inspiration does it add a bit of potential extra damage potential to Sentinels by helping other classes. They can't manage to taunt a boss, rez a key member of a raid, cleanse an important debuff, or help the raid survive a lot of incoming damage.

 

The reason people are taking Marauders is not they have any inherent good utility. It is that they have inherently really good damage. Watchman parses among the best of them in sustained DPS. Combat can out burst any spec in the game and has really good sustained DPS (easily better than Snipers and Juggs). While Focus burns down adds like it is no ones business. Sentinels really can't help a raid much or be versatile, they can just do lots of damage.

 

The Utility Sentinels do have is Transcendence, whose use in practice broils down to we need to move across a room fast. I like some of the fights in TfB and S&V where Trans was useful utility, like crossing the room in phase 2 on Kephess, getting back to the boss on Titan 6, getting to Ops Chief, chasing Sunder as Melee, etc. Of course no one likes using Trans since it costs DPS instead of using Zen. If it could possibly be given a CD/removed as part of the Centering mechanic, be compensated with a higher duration and/or be given a buff to defensive capabilities. I think it is interesting to consider giving Marauders refined utility other than leet Deeps and a pretty clunky Trans, which is either really mediocre or god-tier OP (see spamming it on CD on Hateful Entity).

[Aelanis]

... which is either really mediocre or god-tier OP (see spamming it on CD on Hateful Entity).

 

Carnage Predation on CD in that fight is really lolzy. I've run out of melee range quite a few times by accident because I was unaccustomed to the speed under a Carnage Predation.

[JDotter]

most of these suggestions read as things people who don't understand the class might say. We don't need more Merciless stacks, double gore isn't necessary for Carnage, the flat cooldown gives you more DPS sustained and you are STILL bursty. It does not take more skill to handle old Carnage. It just doesn't. I admit to being initially frustrated that the QoL changes ultimately altered the general feel of Carnage as a spec, but the people who are longing for old Carnage most likely didn't have a mastery of the old way the spec worked to begin with, so I just don't understand why everybody is crying for double gore. Double gore was awesome, I'm not against seeing absurd numbers in burst windows, but double gore had a side effect of doing basically no damage after your double gore for a whiiiiile. It was a burst that was unacceptable in that you could go from having double gore to having solo gores with no procs to save your life.

 

TLDR I will never understand 99% of the people in Marauder forums, it's like I'm playing a different class somehow (and I don't mean better).

 

Actual QoL changes? If you want to give Focus/Rage their Smash crap back/revert the nerf, fine, but take their single target DPS down a bit. It doesn't outparse Carnage, but it's only a 100-200 behind, and it's ahead of just about every other AOE spec in the game by a dumb amount (Rage Jugg it's ahead of by about 400, it's ahead of AP by 300+, etc)

 

Maras are in a great place in PVE and PVP. All I want is a fun ability to be added so that I have to make more decisions in my rotation. Make me decide between using Vicious Throw and insert-new-ability-here. IDK, something.

 

Justin plz

 

The skill cap for good to average carnage marauder was the biggest in the game pre change.

[Raansu]

Justin plz

 

The skill cap for good to average carnage marauder was the biggest in the game pre change.

 

No it wasnt....Carnage was never difficult to play. Fishing for procs is not hard, just mind numbingly annoying.

[Vodrin]

Justin was obviously talking from a PvE point of view. In PvP Watchman always needs more stacks, and the double PS/Gore burst was really nice (although I prefer the reliability of the current system, the old proc dependent system could be maddening at times as others have said).

[JDotter]

No it wasnt....Carnage was never difficult to play. Fishing for procs is not hard, just mind numbingly annoying.

 

Yeah thats why some marauders did 2k on NM brontes during progression and others did 2900+

 

 

the procs

 

I can name a guild that would of killed Brontes so much sooner if they had a better marauder.

 

The procs tho

 

I still remember being in SG viop and when noodles did 3k on a pull they were all confused.

Edited October 3, 2014 by JDotter

[justinplainview]

Carnage Mara on Brontes was all about realizing you just Massacre spam on fingers because you don't have enough time to ravage or do a full gore window 75% of the time. When I did Brontes (pre nerf) at first I was one of those let's do 2k on Brontes people. Literally just changed how I handled fingers (nothing else) and I was doing 2600 on Carnage in Brontes, which is what moooost were doing back then. The 3k or close to 3k Carnage Brontes guys that I'm aware of were Noodles, Beast, and Trill IIRC. Which means that should be the standard, true....

 

Obviously, I'm not the best Carnage marauder, but I consider myself to be capable with the spec, and I felt capable with the spec in its old iteration (read that as above average). I never found the skill cap to be very high, but admittedly Carnage was the first spec that I ever ran in raids. I'm known more for Anni (in what LITTLE knowledge there is of me bc best carry NA) but I never even attempted Anni until 2.7 when I read a Macedonicus guide. Carnage never felt difficult. It just felt at odds with itself because it was a high APM (for swtor) spec with a proc system that required you to be patient on your most important damage dealing move (force scream). The high APM matched with the patience when procs don't occur made it a spec where the flow of the spec was just BEGGING you not to be patient and just activate the damned ability unbuffed. That was the only part of the spec that was odd to me. IMHO I had more issues learning Annihilation than Carnage. Tracking dots was a pain, and since I've never played an MMO before SWTOR, and never ran a dot class ever, it was like re-learning how to deal damage in general. Now, of course I'd call Anni simple, but I won't lie, for those first few weeks of raiding with it, I was incredibly uncomfortable with it. With Carnage, it was just "have force scream and ravage and vicious inside gore and have the rage to execute that concept" and I'd be fine in a raid EVEN if I messed up my rotation multiple times. Old Carnage was a bad parsing spec and a very good raiding spec. It was very easy to put up sufficient numbers in 99% of raid scenarios in Carnage.

Edited October 3, 2014 by justinplainview

[Emperor-Norton]

Yeah thats why some marauders did 2k on NM brontes during progression and others did 2900+

 

 

the procs

 

I can name a guild that would of killed Brontes so much sooner if they had a better marauder.

 

The procs tho

Hey Beastfury and Noodles did an excellent job. Don't blame them.

I still remember being in SG viop and when noodles did 3k on a pull they were all confused.

Out strat for P1 looking back was so awful for DPS, especially melee. Still, not that it matters whether or not you get a kill. Still, Noodles is one of the best Marauders I have seen raid.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Emperor-Norton

[Raansu]

Yeah thats why some marauders did 2k on NM brontes during progression and others did 2900+

 

All comes down to gear and procs. Skill had nothing to do with it. You either had a string of good procs or you didn't. Geare made up the rest, end of story.

[justinplainview]

All comes down to gear and procs. Skill had nothing to do with it. You either had a string of good procs or you didn't. Geare made up the rest, end of story.

 

No. No no no no. NiM Brontes had almost everyone at the same gear. I'm going to need you to not speak to things that are thaaaaat far off. Gear on Brontes was not a huge differing point on that fight. And I once did that fight with a 2 piece set bonus and almost no Dread Forged gear.

 

The same guys doing 3k pre nerf with good procs lost 100 with bad procs. The procs don't hurt you that badly in raids they hurt you badly on dummy.

Edited October 3, 2014 by justinplainview

[Raansu]

No. No no no no. NiM Brontes had almost everyone at the same gear. I'm going to need you to not speak to things that are thaaaaat far off. Gear on Brontes was not a huge differing point on that fight. And I once did that fight with a 2 piece set bonus and almost no Dread Forged gear.

 

Like it or not, thats how rng worked. You can literally get that big of a difference if you get a string of no procs which could happen in carnage quite easily. If his gear was not min/maxed or even slightly off from another that can also make an impact in carnage. Marauders are WAY more gear dependant than other classes.

 

Either way, the idea that rng and constantly fishing for procs somehow made carnage more difficult is still laughable.

[justinplainview]

Like it or not, thats how rng worked. You can literally get that big of a difference if you get a string of no procs which could happen in carnage quite easily. If his gear was not min/maxed or even slightly off from another that can also make an impact in carnage. Marauders are WAY more gear dependant than other classes.

 

Either way, the idea that rng and constantly fishing for procs somehow made carnage more difficult is still laughable.

That's actually not how the Rng and gear worked in fights though. At launch of NiM DF Brontes, 99% of maras and sents were at full dread forged and most had a few dread master pieces. There was NOT a gear difference for That fight that was appreciable. When I had a two piece and almost no dread forged gear that was one night. The next time I pulled that boss it was full dread forged. The numbers we are referencing have nothing to do with gear. I promise you. And unless you pulled NiM brontes hundreds of times in Carnage I don't even know how you can speak to the Rng of the spec and how it affects the fight

[KeyboardNinja]

Like it or not, thats how rng worked. You can literally get that big of a difference if you get a string of no procs which could happen in carnage quite easily. If his gear was not min/maxed or even slightly off from another that can also make an impact in carnage. Marauders are WAY more gear dependant than other classes

 

Even on a dummy, proc rates would cause variance by maybe 150 DPS on average. More if you had hilariously toilet-style procs and compared to a god-proc parse, but those were severe outliers. Crit rates had a bigger effect (especially Vicious Throw crit). On a boss, proc rates were much less of a factor, ironically, because you were generally doing things like holding procs and playing in a less uniform fashion. When I was playing my sentinel regularly in NiM raids (dating back to TfB), I would get almost the same DPS on a given boss from week to week (and also from pull to pull during progression). Your mythical 30% variance between pulls didn't exist. Carnage actually had two or three different rotations which were viable, each with varying dependence on RNG (obviously they all had RNG, but by delaying things or pushing them forward, you could smooth out the probabilities quite a bit). Justin was notable for using a slightly different opener (and thus, different early-phase rotation) than the "accepted" Carnage opener, specifically with the intent of reducing RNG at the expense of some top-end DPS.

 

Anyway, the point is exactly what Justin said: a difference between 2900 and 2k on NiM Brontes has absolutely nothing to do with proc rate RNG. Nothing at all. I would buy a difference between 2800 and 2900 from the same Marauder in the same raid group with a quirky pair of pulls which happen to demonstrate the same orb RNG, but that's about it.

 

The fact that you still refuse to see (or cannot see) what was done to smooth out the RNG and improve probabilities in "old Carnage" says to me that you're really not in a position to judge whether or not it was a skillful spec. "Skill" isn't a well-defined quantitative metric, so I can't really objectively argue that it was or was not a skillful spec. However, the fact that you have repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding for what the spec was and how it played only serves to prove that you are not in possession of the information required to judge its skill level, one way or another.

 

In other words, you can look at the players who got consistent, high-level results out of Carnage and deny that what we did was skillful, but you cannot deny that we did what we did, because there is objective proof (i.e. combat logs and videos).

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Raansu]

Even on a dummy, proc rates would cause variance by maybe 150 DPS on average. More if you had hilariously toilet-style procs and compared to a god-proc parse, but those were severe outliers. Crit rates had a bigger effect (especially Vicious Throw crit). On a boss, proc rates were much less of a factor, ironically, because you were generally doing things like holding procs and playing in a less uniform fashion. When I was playing my sentinel regularly in NiM raids (dating back to TfB), I would get almost the same DPS on a given boss from week to week (and also from pull to pull during progression). Your mythical 30% variance between pulls didn't exist. Carnage actually had two or three different rotations which were viable, each with varying dependence on RNG (obviously they all had RNG, but by delaying things or pushing them forward, you could smooth out the probabilities quite a bit). Justin was notable for using a slightly different opener (and thus, different early-phase rotation) than the "accepted" Carnage opener, specifically with the intent of reducing RNG at the expense of some top-end DPS.

 

Anyway, the point is exactly what Justin said: a difference between 2900 and 2k on NiM Brontes has absolutely nothing to do with proc rate RNG. Nothing at all. I would buy a difference between 2800 and 2900 from the same Marauder in the same raid group with a quirky pair of pulls which happen to demonstrate the same orb RNG, but that's about it.

 

The fact that you still refuse to see (or cannot see) what was done to smooth out the RNG and improve probabilities in "old Carnage" says to me that you're really not in a position to judge whether or not it was a skillful spec. "Skill" isn't a well-defined quantitative metric, so I can't really objectively argue that it was or was not a skillful spec. However, the fact that you have repeatedly demonstrated a lack of understanding for what the spec was and how it played only serves to prove that you are not in possession of the information required to judge its skill level, one way or another.

 

In other words, you can look at the players who got consistent, high-level results out of Carnage and deny that what we did was skillful, but you cannot deny that we did what we did, because there is objective proof (i.e. combat logs and videos).

 

AAAAANNNND here comes the worst marauder in existence to post.

 

Sorry that you still think rng is skill

[justinplainview]

Aaaaaand better Marauders than yourself have already invalidated your viewpoint on the matter. I often disagree with KBN on Marauder views, even carnage ones (I have never liked his view on the standard opener of old carnage and much preferred a raid opener that didn't depend on double gore rng procs) but his views here are accurate. Top maras don't have a huge variance in fights in carnage without extraneous raid holds or deaths. I've gone through as many NiM parses of maras and sents as I can find, I've even had maras that don't post send me parses... And the variance was never substantial. In fact, pre nerf NiM Brontes, Carnage was considered THE best melee spec to run regardless of what class you were talking about. It was consistent, it had great survivability, you had faster predation, trauma, bloodthirst, etc etc. Carnage was most definitely the melee FoTM before the Anni changes. I never heard of, experienced, or noticed a huge RNG variance from NiM marauders or Sentinels. I'm sorry, but your statement doesn't bear out. In Carnage, overall, what you pulled on that fight was what you pulled on that fight. Edited October 3, 2014 by justinplainview