Sentinel/Marauder 3.0 Discussion/Wishlist Thread

[Emperor-Norton]

With 3.0 on the horizon I figured I would get a thread going on to discuss what changes, if any, should happen to Sents/Maras in the expansion and to discuss proposed changes by Bioware as we learn more.

 

I will start off with my opinion of the state of the class at the moment. Watchman does good sustained DPS even if it is a tad behind Madness, Combat still has amazing Burst, while Focus is great for cleaving down adds. Due to the ease of picking up Defensive Roll, they are also really survivable in current PvE content (even if it hurts the damage of Watchman and Focus). However playing all the specs has been made exceedingly boring. The ease of managing Focus in Watchman and Combat, along with the simplification or outright removal of several mechanics from both specs, has made playing either spec no real challenge to any competent player.

 

In PvP, Watchman is incredibly easy to kite and shutdown with roots and slows. This is made worse by having it's Leap as a rotation attack and besides Leap and TST, has a rotation made up entirely of <4 meter attacks. Rage has nice mobility thanks to a several snares and root break on Obliterate, but it has little point when it's single target and AOE damage are pretty lackluster. Carnage however hits like a truck and is able to much more reliably apply it's burst than before 2.10, even if it is far simpler. Guarded by the Force needs a change considering the buffs to defensive cooldowns of Snipers, Operatives, Sorcs, and Juggernauts following the nerf of UR. Either a revert to it's original form of health taken on activation or allowing it to be used while Stunned would be good changes imo. Other than that, Sentinels are pretty solid in PvP.

 

Inspiration is, as usual, really good. Considering what was mentioned about wanting to spread utility around all of the Damage Dealing specs of all the Avanced Classes, I would say it is too good. As long as burn phases or DPS checks remain a thing, people will want to take a Sent/Mara just for Inspiration. Considering it is a group buff, it ends up requiring the other DPS in a group to work their offensive cooldowns around to try and match them up with Inspiration. Therefore I think it should be removed from the game, with Transcendence being made Sentinels main utility ability with a baseline 80% speed boost for all specs. From there Damage could be easier balanced between AC's without having to count on the psychological factor Inspiration has on what class to bring to a raid.

 

I may talk more in depth about specific things later, but this seems like a good start. Now, discuss.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Emperor-Norton

[znihilist]

Concerning the Watchman/Annihilation kiting problem, yes that's is something that really needs to be addressed. There is a stark difference between the anti-kiting utility that the other two specs get (specially Carnage/Combat) and Annihilation, and I would hope this gets solved into something that makes everyone happy (us and those who wishes to kite us!)

I like most of your suggestions, and specially the undying rage, and I think allowing its use when stunned would be a good compromise.

 

As for the removal of Bloodthirst, this is a very interesting suggestion and I think it might be a fair one considering the situation of group utility (or the lack of) with other classes, but it might be prudent to wait and see what they have in store for the rest.

Edited September 20, 2014 by znihilist

[Ardarell_Solo]

Hey Mace, thanks for starting this thread, good idea!

 

I agree Inspiration is what imbalances Sentinels in comparison with other DPS ACs and I second the suggestion of removing it from the game.

 

GBTF shoud indeed be returned to its former state, also Watchman self heals should be reverted to original state, maybe just for PVP (just redesign the talent with different values for PvE and PvP).

 

With the removal of ICD for Cauterize Reset I'd think the need for seeing which of the debuffs on the target are your own and which are from group members has become more urgent - plus it is something Sages and other ACs have been asking for all along. Just give buffs/debuffs applied by yourself a red line around them so you can clearly identify them. Else counting GCDs on different targets when using the reset to multidot is distracting.

 

Generally I agree Sentinels are in a very good place in comparison, at least in PvE.

 

I'd chime in with PvPers that one of the changes in Focus should be reverted: Make Sweep's Autocrit still apply to secondary targets, but not Singularity's damage boost, removing that was ok.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Ardarell_Solo

[HerrManstein]

My personal wishlist:

 

Juyo Mastery - Crit chance bonus increase from 1% to 1.33%

Seeping Wound - Snare applies to all DoTs

Hungering - Self healing increased from 0.5% to 1%

Undying Rage - Returned to it's previous state

 

Maybe allow Force Scream apply a single stack of Deadly Saber?

[znihilist]

I'd chime in with PvPers that one of the changes in Focus should be reverted: Make Sweep's Autocrit still apply to secondary targets, but not Singularity's damage boost, removing that was ok.

And remove the target requirement!

If no one is targeted then no one gets the singularity's damage boost.

 

 

I have a suggestion if we are talking about specifics, what do you think about immunity to slows being tied to Juyo high in the tree ?

I am not talking about immunity to roots or to physics, just to slows.

[Bugattiboy]

Watchman does good sustained DPS even if it is a tad behind Madness

I thought melee classes were supposed to be compensated with higher dps because of the melee range requirement.

 

Therefore I think it [inspiration] should be removed from the game

Yes. Take away this AC's biggest incentive. That will fix the problem.

 

We also need GBTF completely overhauled or reverted to its original effect as well Merciless Zeal being reverted to its original effect

Edited September 21, 2014 by Bugattiboy

[Saenth]

thought melee classes were supposed to be compensated with higher dps because of the melee range requirement.

 

 

Yes. Take away this AC's biggest incentive. That will fix the problem.

 

We also need GBTF completely overhauled or reverted to it's original effect as well Merciless Zeal being reverted to original effect as well.

 

Yes you do need to take away the biggest incentive. I feel some of the changes that Sents/Mars might like are always held back by the fact they provide Bloodthirst while having excellent gap closing and target switching and defensive CD's. All things considered they are still the most vital MDPS even though the raw DPS of Assassins has allowed them to regain ground.

 

I agree with everything Mace outlined in his post.

[DarkWingedEagle]

Removing bloodthirst from marauders without some kind of large scale change to the class is a terrible idea. Bioware has already made it to where the for practical purposes it can only be applied by one marauder due to the debuff removing the temptation to run with mult marauder for mult bloothirsts. Also without blood thirst baring a few exceptions there would be nearly no need for frenzy so why not take it too. Getting rid of bloodthirst would not only weaken marauders it would weaken grps when doing bosses with burn phases. And lets face it there are still plenty of guilds that cant make the dps checks on brontes with the droids or on the council burn phase why would we want to make it any harder on them.

 

And its not bloosthirst holding back some of the changes we want it is however the fact that we are one of the highest parsing dps classes and have absolutely great survivorbility given the number of cooldowns we posesses.

 

Marauders are finally in a spot where we can make up for the fact that the current fights are all range friendly and taking away bloodthirst might not take us out of the equation but would drop us several rungs on the what dps do we want to bring ladder.

Also as for other classes having to line up cooldowns to coincide with bloodthirst if u have a competent raid grp that should already be happening since both should be up and used for for the burn phase.

Edited September 20, 2014 by DarkWingedEagle

[znihilist]

Removing bloodthirst from marauders without some kind of large scale change to the class is a terrible idea.

Not really, they only need to adjust the dps to account for the lost portion from bloothirst.

 

Bioware has already made it to where the for practical purposes it can only be applied by one marauder due to the debuff removing the temptation to run with mult marauder for mult bloothirsts.

I don't see how it relates to the issue at hand, are you saying that groups will no longer take marauders ?

We are not owned a spot on any team, in the same way Mercs or any other class are not owned a spot on any team. Bioware only needs to make sure that every spec have some sort of advantage to be taken. If we are only being taken for bloodthirst, then we must change the circumstances.

 

 

Also without blood thirst baring a few exceptions there would be nearly no need for frenzy so why not take it too.

What about berserk and predation ? We don't use those anymore ? Is frenzy only used for bloodthirst ?

 

Getting rid of bloodthirst would not only weaken marauders it would weaken grps when doing bosses with burn phases. And lets face it there are still plenty of guilds that cant make the dps checks on brontes with the droids or on the council burn phase why would we want to make it any harder on them.

 

This has nothing to do with Marauders, this is with content design and if there is no bloodthirst then there can't be dps checks that can't be passed without one. BW might have not made a lot of fans with fights design (opinions vary), but no one in their right mind will create content for none-existent abilities.

 

Marauders are finally in a spot where we can make up for the fact that the current fights are all range friendly and taking away bloodthirst might not take us out of the equation but would drop us several rungs on the what dps do we want to bring ladder.

Why ? And why we must be the number 1 class that everyone must flock to and chose ? Shouldn't we strive for a better balanced utility across the classes ?

Edited September 20, 2014 by znihilist

[Bonzenaattori]

I think it would be better to discuss additional content for the Marauder/Sentinel, instead of... changes

Considering many people are deliberating towards the potential level cap increase which obviously shines potential for new skills.

 

Changes however, for the sake of maintaining thread integrity.

I would like Gore/Precision Slash to be changed - Contrary to what people believe, I am not convinced this skill actually grants Armor Penetration.

Feel free to quote me on this but I'm not going to go out of my way to show experiments etc of what I have conducted to prove my point... simply because I feel at this point in the game its rendered a pointless debate.

 

I think it would be cool if they changed it so your minimum damage is increased to your maximum damage (thus you always getting maximum damage output respectively towards the parameters of your gear/ability usage)

I think this way players will appreciate and notice their damage a lot more and various other aspects. Or giving it a unique mechanic where abilities under this buff never miss, dodge, shielded, deflected or whatever... you know... PRECISION

 

I would like offhand damage modifiers to be revised... namely bonus damage effecting your offhand attacks.

Also unique accuracy buff for offhand so they are more likely to hit the target instead of this terribad 2/3rds accuracy

 

A talent point that rivals Unremitting/Unstoppable would be cool as well.

I previously proposed a skill of similar mechanic to effect Trancedence so the ability has a unique self-cast effect, that gives immobilize/slow immunity on yourself making it more rewarding to actually use rather than just being a selfless op wide buff.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Bonzenaattori

[DarkWingedEagle]

In regards to not being able to have mult bloodthirsts i was referring to the fact that bloodthirst has already been nerfed once albiet that one was needed. And no we are not owed a spot what i was saying was it made bringin 2 mars pointless if there is another dps who pull numbers that are even close.

 

In regards to frenzy when was the last time u felt u needed a back to back beserk and with a 3 min cooldown useing it a ton to get pred is impossible its pretty obvious that frenzy was mostly ment to allow beserk/bloodthirst combo

 

I am not saying bloodthirst is needed for burn phases but with groups that cant even do nim titan 6 burn due to lack of dps when in 180s then why make it even harder for people. Obviously if you are in a group with good dps bloodthirst isn't neccessary but from what ive seen alot of groups dont have the dps.( And by not being able to beat titan 6 burn i mean hitting enrage at 10% and wipping)

 

What I was saying is we are balanced the fact that we have bloodthirst helps mitigate the fact we have to move around so much as opposed to a sniper who can stand there and dps without haveing to move and lose dps plus they have balistic shield as a group cooldown mercs have healing and so forth. I am not saying we are a must bring but losing bloodthirst would put us behind the other classes.

Edited September 21, 2014 by DarkWingedEagle

[oofalong]

*snip*

Inspiration is, as usual, really good. Considering what was mentioned about wanting to spread utility around all of the Damage Dealing specs of all the Advanced Classes, I would say it is too good.

 

Without some type of knowledge on how BioWare plans to increase the group utility of other ACs, I think it is premature to say Inspiration/Bloodthirst is too good.

 

As long as burn phases or DPS checks remain a thing, people will want to take a Sent/Mara just for Inspiration. Considering it is a group buff, it ends up requiring the other DPS in a group to work their offensive cooldowns around to try and match them up with Inspiration.

 

First off, I like that Inspiration/Bloodthirst promotes DPS coordination. In most cases, DPS is a very individualistic. Inspiration/Bloodthirst is one of the few opportunities for the DPS to synergize. Also, I would rather see content such that a single use of Inspiration/Bloodthirst does not necessarily determine a kill vs a wipe.

 

Therefore I think it should be removed from the game, with Transcendence being made Sentinels main utility ability with a baseline 80% speed boost for all specs. From there Damage could be easier balanced between AC's without having to count on the psychological factor Inspiration has on what class to bring to a raid.

 

Transcendence/Predation provides very little raid and arena utility. The speed boost is occasionally nice to have, and the increased defense is only slightly better. Still, both of these benefits are not essential to killing bosses or succeeding in PvP. In fact, I would suggest they are more of a crutch that is used when something else goes wrong.

 

Right now, 30 stacks of our Fury/Centering allows the use of one of Inspiration/Bloodthirst, Zen/Berserk, or Transcendence. The choice is effectively:

• a lot more DPS for all,
  
• a little more DPS for me, or
  
• oh **** someone screwed up let me try to save them or my group needs extra speed to avoid standing in fire.
  

 

With the removal of Inspiration/Bloodthirst, we are effectively left with only one worthwhile option for 30 stacks.

 

Now, let's examine the utility provided by the other DPS ACs:

• Sage/Sorc: Off healing & Pull
  
• Shadow/Assassin: Stealth Rez & Taunt
  
• Guardian/Jugg: Taunt & Armor Debuff
  
• Gunslinger/Sniper: Armor Debuff & Raid-wide Damage Reduction
  
• Commando/Merc: Off healing & Armor Debuff (if spec'ed)
  
• Scoundrel/Operative: Stealth Rez & Off healing
  
• Vanguard/PT: Taunt
  

 

Assuming no changes in the above, I believe we will be significantly less valuable to raids with only Transcendence/Predation, especially as nearly every other AC has a speed boost or high mobility action. And, if BioWare does increase the DPS utility of other classes we become even less desirable.

 

To recap, recommending the removal of Inspiration/Bloodthirst irrespective of changes to other ACs seems excessive and harmful to Sents/Maras. I would rather they revert the ability to group-wide only if it was deemed to be too strong of an ability. Or perhaps, make it a 10% increase for 10s. I believe the removal of the ability is the wrong type of change.

[Aelanis]

...

Now, let's examine the utility provided by the other DPS ACs:

• Sage/Sorc: Off healing & Pull
  
• Shadow/Assassin: Stealth Rez & Taunt
  
• Guardian/Jugg: Taunt & Armor Debuff
  
• Gunslinger/Sniper: Armor Debuff & Raid-wide Damage Reduction
  
• Commando/Merc: Off healing & Armor Debuff (if spec'ed)
  
• Scoundrel/Operative: Stealth Rez & Off healing
  
• Vanguard/PT: Taunt
  

...

 

I'm not sure what you've tried to tank as a DPS Assassin, but, especially as Madness, you're going to die if you taunt something. Lowest DR in the game combined with 2 defensive abilities that can help you after you taunt a boss (unless you're taunting just to Shroud a mechanic), one of which will make you lose aggro the second the taunt wears off, you're not going to effectively tank much, and certainly not for long. Saying that Assassin DPS can taunt as raid utility is a little presumptuous.

 

I'm sure you're aware, but saying that off healing is viable raid utility is stretching the truth. The times I've seen off healing actually being helpful can be summed up in: the group screwed up, the healers are incompetent or no dps needs to go out, and so that's all they can do to even be useful. To continue on this point, every utility ability you mentioned, short of taunts, armor debuffs and the Sniper/Slinger shield, costs the user damage they could be doing. Bloodthirst can be used without slowing down damage output.

 

I'm not saying that there isn't some utility in all the things you listed, I'm just saying that I think you're giving credit where little to none is due.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Aelanis

[DarkWingedEagle]

A dps taunt can be the difference between a wipe and a clear for example on draxus if a tank has a dismantler it is absolutely useful.

[oofalong]

I'm not sure what you've tried to tank as a DPS Assassin, but, especially as Madness, you're going to die if you taunt something. Lowest DR in the game combined with 2 defensive abilities that can help you after you taunt a boss (unless you're taunting just to Shroud a mechanic), one of which will make you lose aggro the second the taunt wears off, you're not going to effectively tank much, and certainly not for long. Saying that Assassin DPS can taunt as raid utility is a little presumptuous.

 

First off, I appreciate the difference between taunt and tank. In my experience an extra taunt has been invaluable, whether it is to cheese a mechanic, help reposition a boss, pull an add away from a healer. Force Shroud and Deflectiom should provide enough survivability for a few secs as well.

 

I'm sure you're aware, but saying that off healing is viable raid utility is stretching the truth. The times I've seen off healing actually being helpful can be summed up in: the group screwed up, the healers are incompetent or no dps needs to go out, and so that's all they can do to even be useful.

 

Again in my experience a well placed Kolto Missile is very useful. There are occasionally fights where there are no targets to DPS and there are times when a healer gets ported away. All a Mara/Sent can do in these situations is sit idle. Plus, any of the healing ACs can cast battle rez.

 

To continue on this point, every utility ability you mentioned, short of taunts, armor debuffs and the Sniper/Slinger shield, costs the user damage they could be doing. Bloodthirst can be used without slowing down damage output.

 

I'm not saying that there isn't some utility in all the things you listed, I'm just saying that I think you're giving credit where little to none is due.

 

So I am confused do you think BioWare should do away with Bloodthirst/Inspiration? I layer out my rationale for why I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. While I appreciate you disagreeing with portions of my argument I am unclear how you feel about the conclusion.

 

More to your point, there have been very few DPS checks in this game where the DPS can't use a GCD to provide some utility.

Edited September 21, 2014 by oofalong

[Aelanis]

First off, I appreciate the difference between taunt and tank. In my experience an extra taunt has been invaluable, whether it is to cheese a mechanic, help reposition a boss, pull an add away from a healer. Force Shroud and Deflectiom should provide enough survivability for a few secs as well.

 

I certainly agree that it's very useful in some situations, but, certainly when NiM Power was up, most bosses could global an Assassin. I've survived a couple seconds tanking Grob'thok since the buff went away, but the healers basically ignored the rest of the raid to keep me alive. Outside of Draxus, Bestia and Council, and maybe C-0 to reposition gold adds?, taunts don't help all that much. While a well timed taunt can save a raid in those fights, in other fights they're completely worthless. If the usefulness wasn't so spotty, I'd say taunts are great utility in PvE.

Again in my experience a well placed Kolto Missile is very useful. There are occasionally fights where there are no targets to DPS and there are times when a healer gets ported away. All a Mara/Sent can do in these situations is sit idle. Plus, any of the healing ACs can cast battle rez.

 

Fair enough, about the battle rez. I've been in the situation of "off healing is my best option right now" and off healing really hurts your resources, and can, if you're not careful, cost you a lot of damage in the long run.

So I am confused do you think BioWare should do away with Bloodthirst/Inspiration? I layer out my rationale for why I feel this is a step in the wrong direction. While I appreciate you disagreeing with portions of my argument I am unclear how you feel about the conclusion.

 

More to your point, there have been very few DPS checks in this game where the DPS can't use a GCD to provide some utility.

 

That's mostly because I'm unsure, myself, if I want to see Bloodthirst/Inspiration go or not. It's definitely more powerful than anything else a class has to offer, save Ballistic Shield/Scrambling Field, and it's still arguably better than that. I'm hesitant to say it should be taken away, and if it does get taken, it would certainly need to be replaced with something else, but as it stands, a Sentinel/Marauder brings something unique and extremely powerful to a raid, and no other class can match it. I'm somewhat in favor of them removing it, but if they're not going to give the class a good replacement ability, I would be annoyed to see it go. I really want to see a meta where all the classes are nicely balanced and a raid group would want one of each AC in a raid, and if they can get rid of the ability and do that, I'd be all for it.

[oofalong]

I am going to be AFI (away from Internet) for a few days, but I look forward to continuing the discussion when I return. again, my issues with eliminating Bloodthirst/inspiration is holding all else equal there would be no reason to bring a Mara/Sent as the other DPS classes would offer useful utility. in otherwords removing it would be an over-correction

[g_land]

I believe they already said in some previous development posts that they were looking towards a more balance raid utility. Please correct if not the case; as it stands now, outside of the pure dps classes utilites everyone else's seem to revolve around moments like "oh heck someone royally screwed up" or "how do we cheese this mechanic?" It's specific to a few fights for the latter and the former if your raid group isn't acting correctly. Slingers don't loose dps with there utility aside from armor rend and sents may lose a zen but have valorous call to make up for it immediately. Aka they don't suffer a significant loss to there dps if asked to use their utility abilities where as classes that have off heals can drastically gimp themselves. I don't think anything needs to be removed but utility balance needs to be reviewed for 3.0. Hey at least we are past the stacking sents and Slingers because all the other classes have a "hybrid tax!"

 

Sorry, typed from my tiny phone:o

Edited September 21, 2014 by g_land

[Bugattiboy]

in otherwords removing it would be an over-correction

Sorry for going a bit offtopic. That's exactly what the Guarded by the Force change was, an over-correction. BioWare didn't seem to care though. They are no stranger to over-corrections.

 

The problem was never GBTF itself. It was the Focus set bonus that allowed people to have a 45s cooldown on GBTF.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Bugattiboy

[Projawa]

I think a lot of this talk around removing bloodthirst started with Fridge's stream roundtable where maras like Justin used the noble self-hating liberal line 'lets sacrifice something out of our toolbox so we can get more class diversity in raids' to justify the suggestion. It's premature to debate if a big change like removing BT is appropriate until we know more about what raidwide utility other classes may or may not get in 3.0 Edited September 21, 2014 by Projawa

[Aelanis]

I am going to be AFI (away from Internet) for a few days, but I look forward to continuing the discussion when I return. again, my issues with eliminating Bloodthirst/inspiration is holding all else equal there would be no reason to bring a Mara/Sent as the other DPS classes would offer useful utility. in otherwords removing it would be an over-correction

 

I wouldn't want to see them simply eliminate the ability, I'd like to see it replaced by something else that's really good, but not quite as powerful.

[CrownofGold]

WTB Vengeance Marauder. That is all.

[TheRudest]

Every class in the game have abilities to stun or knock back an enemy, and I cant understand, why sent/mara doesnt have one. We have weak self-defense (guarded by the force last "change"). I understand that sent/mara is dps only class, but our dps can be easily controlled. Does its fair? If BW want to see good dps in this class without defense, than they must give us control or smth. Its my opinion...

[CrownofGold]

I LOVE my marauder and my sentinel but you have to work so hard while playing these classes in long fights. My fingers start to hurt from the constant button smashing. I also play Carnage so that may have something to do with it. With the most recent raid content, melee DPS are having a hard time because you are having to switch targets often that are more than 30 meters from each other so you spend half the fight walking from target to target when your force leap is on CD.

 

I'll stick to my ranged DPS "turret" classes for now

[CrownofGold]

Every class in the game have abilities to stun or knock back an enemy, and I cant understand, why sent/mara doesnt have one. We have weak self-defense (guarded by the force last "change"). I understand that sent/mara is dps only class, but our dps can be easily controlled. Does its fair? If BW want to see good dps in this class without defense, than they must give us control or smth. Its my opinion...

 

I do not really know the Sentinel names of abilities but as for Marauders they have the most "interrupts" of any class. So many in fact that you never run out as the first one will come off CD while using the last one. You have your Interrupt, your Force Choke, Your Scream that is a Mez, you can use Force Camouflage before a caster is done casting causing their cast to fail and you also have Force Charge that interrupts any ability. That is FIVE interrupt abilities making it very difficult for a caster to get anything useful off on a Marauder.

 

That being said, I would LOVE Vengenace Juggernaut's "Force Charge, next ability uninterruptible ability" on my Marauder ESPECIALLY since the cool down on Ravage is so frickin long on a Mara! Mean while, Vengeance Juggernaut can use Ravage far more often and it HITS HARDER! GRRrrr!!!!

 

WTB Vengeance Marauder Spec! Let's get rid of Smash spec for Vengeance. THANKS!!!