The Scam/Not a Scam debate storyline

[TUXs]

I think he meant "sort to lowest price first" in the GTN screen.

 

It's not only that...I can flood the GTN with the second highest prices to manipulate the highest price to look like the lowest price because of the limited display, making sure that all you see are screen after screen of items that "appear" similar in price.

 

If there's an item that goes for 500 credits per item, I can flood the GTN with 50 of that item for 5000 credits each, then follow up on my other toon with the 49999 item, to make it appear less at a glance. That way your screen is filled with items that make my high priced item look low. You can go 4 screens deep and all you'll see are the 5000 credit items, making mine look low still.

 

This "scam" depends on players sorting prices wrong...and since there's no "LOW to HIGH" visual, to see that you've sorted it correctly, it preys upon players making a mistake.

[hadoken]

To me it looked like he said that if you over price an item your intent is to scam...

 

Precisely. If it's 100x the price of the item already on the market, your intent is to scam. It's that simple.

[RodneyMcNeely]

Well it's the lazy answer, but I expected nothing less. I'm sure nothing will be done.

What's lazy is failing to take your time while reading the price in the GTN interface THEN expecting a game manufacturer to fix your problem.

 

What makes it worse is that said "problem" is with DIGITAL CURRENCY.

IT HAS NO VALUE IN THE REAL WORLD! ZOMG!!!

 

[LordArtemis]

Here's the relevant portion of the conversation I commented towards.

 

Ah, I understand the confusion now.

[Jimvinny]

Here's the relevant portion of the conversation I commented towards.

 

So because someone lists something for 100x less than market value, anyone posting for more has bad intentions. Is that what hadoken is trying to say? That still makes no sense to me.

[Theeko]

The solution has been in the game ever since day 1. "Filter Credit Price" little box at the bottom. Always set it to 250kish when your buying mats.

[g_land]

Clarified previous page Edited November 10, 2014 by g_land

[jstankaroslo]

Hey folks,

 

There has been a lot of chatter this weekend in General Discussion around how players are posting on the GTN, specifically around use of decimals/commas, and whether we feel it is an exploit or not. For starters, we definitely don't want to see any players scammed out of their hard earned credits and we will work to stop those situations wherever possible. Unfortunately, this is not one of those scenarios.

 

What someone is doing in this scenario is posting something at a higher value than the market would typically have that item listed for. For us, it would be impossible to tell if a user was posting an item at a higher value to try to "scam" another user, or simply because that is what they want to sell it for.

 

When purchasing items on the GTN, aside from the initial sorting and purchase we also have a secondary window pop-up as confirmation of sale. If you feel you are at risk of buying something off of the GTN at an intended value, take your time! Make sure to read over exactly what they are selling it for and then double check that number when you receive the pop-up. Also, we highly recommend using the sorting functions for both total and unit prices to make sure you are paying what you want.

 

With that in mind, I am going to pass these issues back to the dev team and see if there is anything we can work towards in the future for the GTN to help alleviate these issues. Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

Thank you Eric!

as one of the "chatters" on this topic, I feel I need to express my content for your taking voice on that matter.

 

I hope the community noticed that Eric actually values the credits we own as opposed to many people here claiming that it is "just a game". Credits take time to earn (just like real money) and Eric is right to admit they are hard earned. This is not a trivial matter -someone losing his/her credits. I personally hope the arguments "get real", "its just a game" etc will not stand anymore.

 

I know the devs play our game, but (my guess) you don't play the GTN as much as some of the players. Please take a closer look at those "scam" prices and people using them.

Sure, some of them are just players seizing the opportunity, but as a regular user of the GTN on Progenitor I see also lots of suspicious individuals with strange, ridiculous names that on regular basis and across all the crafting material category selling mats at those prices.

I made my habit to track those and mark their listings with my own 999999999 credits per unit -so that my price stay on top and be a warning for inattentive players that they are browsing the highest prices. I'm sure these kinds of people operate on other servers, and I suspect they are some kind of credit sellers. Please take a closer look at them.

The issue is actually simple to resolve -without decimals this practice would be impossible.

Again, I'm very glad you took notice of this issue, I hope some improvements are possible. Take care, and given that it is my first posting on a developer thread: great game you got there BW! I love SWTOR

[azudelphi]

Precisely. If it's 100x the price of the item already on the market, your intent is to scam. It's that simple.

 

False. Overly simple. Unfair. Lacking context. Etc.

 

Flat out untrue. If you post an item for 100x the lowest price, you may think the lowest price is 100x too low... if you feel someone will buy it, then you can post it.

[TUXs]

The solution has been in the game ever since day 1. "Filter Credit Price" little box at the bottom. Always set it to 250kish when your buying mats.

 

Wait...what? What is that exactly and how do I turn it on?

[Theeko]

You don't turn it on always has been on the GTN since day 1, on the left hand side of the screen on the bottom.

[LordArtemis]

It's not only that...I can flood the GTN with the second highest prices to manipulate the highest price to look like the lowest price because of the limited display, making sure that all you see are screen after screen of items that "appear" similar in price.

 

If there's an item that goes for 500 credits per item, I can flood the GTN with 50 of that item for 5000 credits each, then follow up on my other toon with the 49999 item, to make it appear less at a glance. That way your screen is filled with items that make my high priced item look low. You can go 4 screens deep and all you'll see are the 5000 credit items, making mine look low still.

 

This "scam" depends on players sorting prices wrong...and since there's no "LOW to HIGH" visual, to see that you've sorted it correctly, it preys upon players making a mistake.

 

Well...that is stretching it a bit, adding in terms like "preying on players" and the like.

 

I do not disagree that certain selling practices can be dishonorable ones. Like a person that sells an item at a substantially lower price than what it costs to make that item to try and control the market. This is a practice that is bad for sellers, and I am sure many sellers would agree.

 

But there is no real way to protect against these kind of dishonorable practices, other than refusing to give those kind of people business.

 

Now, IMO that does not mean that many or all of the suggested improvements to the GTN lack merit. But I assign merit to them based on CONVENIENCE, not protections for buyers or sellers.

 

And IMO most of the suggested changes would be great for the sake of convenience. If it also solves the problem of sellers making mistakes when pricing items, or helps buyers avoid dishonorable sellers that is a side benefit.

[Thoronmir]

It's the same reason I have an account I use specifically for internet purchases. I know there are people out there looking to make free money by stealing CC information but I'm not going to cry out for the 'gubmint' to ban internet sales. Instead, as a smart consumer, I pay attention to who I buy from and I've set up a safeguard that ensures I don't lose money due to a breach in security of my card.

/chuckle

 

And I thought I was the only one paranoid enough to do that. My "actual" bank account info never touches the internet ... no internet payments, statements, etc., and my credit card with that bank is used solely for live purchases. But I opened a second bank account ... at a different bank, of course ... and that is the account and credit card I use for internet purchases, Paypal, etc. I have a relatively low credit limit on the card and I keep the bank account at a low balance.

 

Speaking as someone who has been both the beneficiary and "victim" of GTN negligence, I have to put the bulk of the responsibility on the so-called "victims" (myself included). I don't condone intentionally misleading potential buyers via creative manipulation of price postings. But all we need to stop such practices is for purchasers to slow down and pay attention. Even if an item is posted with a unit price of 333,333, which can appear like 333.333 to a distracted buyer, the total price will be reflected on the screen as well. And it only takes a couple of seconds to toggle the high and low unit prices a couple of times just to make sure. Bottom line: 10 seconds of caution at each purchase can eliminate this issue forever.

 

I'm not sure whether a six-second "cancel" option would work. If the buyer chose to remain oblivious during the transaction, it seems unlikely he/she would notice the "error" in the next six seconds. And if we all agree that we want a free market, we can't expect EA/BW to step in and police what is, at its core, a free market transaction between a willing (though perhaps unscrupulous) seller and willing (though perhaps inattentive) buyer.

 

The buyer controls all of the circumstances and conditions of a GTN sale. The buyer decides whether to peruse the GTN while distracted, sleepy, impaired, hungry, angry, hangry, rushed, on a rush, in a rush, listening to Rush, etc. The seller has no control over such things. You want to stop sellers from preying on vulnerable buyers? Don't be a vulnerable buyer.

[g_land]

Precisely. If it's 100x the price of the item already on the market, your intent is to scam. It's that simple.

 

So if someone lists a tythonian force masters lightsaber for 100k and someone else lists for 10 mil... the 10 mil is scamming, or does the lower lister just not know the value of the item.

[MagikFingerz]

This "scam" depends on players sorting prices wrong...and since there's no "LOW to HIGH" visual, to see that you've sorted it correctly, it preys upon players making a mistake.

 

First of all, there IS a "low to high" visual, it's a small triangle pointing either upwards or downwards in the Unit Price column.

 

Secondly, you shouldn't need a visual because all the numbers are there. Anyone with normal vision and brain function should instantly be able to tell if a list of numbers is sorted by "low to high" or not. And it resetting after each search is a known fact (and should be from the first time you use the GTN), which means you have to sort again. 2 extra clicks, oh the humanity.

[OddballEasyEight]

I'd just like to point out I don't even read - I just click stuff and derp 90% of the time. Seems like this thread is for me.

 

Are you sure?

We had another thread that involved running naked through the jungle and being eaten by alligators.

It might interest you

[hadoken]

So if someone lists a tythonian force masters lightsaber for 100k and someone else lists for 10 mil... the 10 mil is scamming, or does the lower lister just not know the value of the item.

 

These aren't one time events, obviously. None of us are asking for some kind of automated system to figure this stuff out. It would be a manual investigation process done by a CSR (like, their job). If there's a ton of items all around 10k and then a bunch priced at 1m...the intent is very clear.

[Theeko]

So if someone lists a tythonian force masters lightsaber for 100k and someone else lists for 10 mil... the 10 mil is scamming, or does the lower lister just not know the value of the item.

 

No one would notice, cause the 100k Tythonian would just fly off before anyone even notices.

[LordArtemis]

What I would personally like to see is a reputable argument against the suggested changes. A few have been posted, like...

 

1) It could introduce new bugs into the GTN.

 

This is a valid concern in my eyes. Almost ever time they have made changes to the GTN in the past it has caused bugs, some that actually broke the GTNs function entirely.

 

2) None (or some) of the changes would provide buyers protection from dishonorable sellers.

 

I agree that this is a valid statement. I do not agree, however, that this is a reason to ignore many of the good changes suggested. In the end, IMO, there is NO way to protect sellers or buyers in the GTN system.

 

And that is it as far as what I have seen.

[g_land]

No one would notice, cause the 100k Tythonian would just fly off before anyone even notices.

 

So did the seller get scammed?

[ReverendAnderson]

The GTN UI could use a cleaning up, but if you buy a massively overpriced item, that's still your fault. Improving the GTN UI is a potentially complex and time consuming solution for Bioware (one I hope they eventually get done). Paying attention and only buying what you mean to is a simple, common sense solution that solves the problem today.

[Brewski]

Well, Eric, I think it's fair to say that if your post was an attempt to quell the debate, it's unfortunately failed.

 

If I'm reading your post right, Biowares stated policy is this:

 

1. Bioware has no rules, restrictions or guidelines on the pricing of items on the GTN. Therefore users will not be actioned for any price listing, purchase or sale on the GTN.
   
2. Purchases and sales on the GTN are strictly the responsibility of the two parties involved, and Bioware will not refund or negotiate settlements in pricing disputes.
   
3. It is not Biowares intent that users should have easy ways to misrepresent pricing in a way to make it more likely for users to purchase items at overinflated prices. So although ultimately such sales are the buyers responsibility, Bioware has attempted and will continue to attempt to improve the GTN functionality in ways that make such misrepresentations harder to achieve.
   

 

If this is correct, I think it is a fair policy, and fairly common in the world of online gaming. There are just too many transactions in a given day to actively police, and handling complaints on a case by case basis is too resource intensive and frankly, subjective.

 

That said, I do think Bioware needs to place some emphasis on #3 above and look at what easy changes can be made to help mitigate this. Actually having a yellow post essentially saying "no one is going to get in trouble for doing this" is likely to increase the behavior, and therefore the complaining. Implementing some of the easier suggestions in this (and 65 other) thread would go a long way towards restoring some faith in the system.

[TUXs]

I do not disagree that certain selling practices can be dishonorable ones. Like a person that sells an item at a substantially lower price than what it costs to make that item to try and control the market. This is a practice that is bad for sellers, and I am sure many sellers would agree.

I'm curious...how exactly is this harmful? If BobVader finds a way to craft something for far less than you, who cares what he sells it at? Buy his and stop making your own...find something BobVader doesn't craft.

First of all, there IS a "low to high" visual, it's a small triangle pointing either upwards or downwards in the Unit Price column.

 

Secondly, you shouldn't need a visual because all the numbers are there. Anyone with normal vision and brain function should instantly be able to tell if a list of numbers is sorted by "low to high" or not. And it resetting after each search is a known fact (and should be from the first time you use the GTN), which means you have to sort again. 2 extra clicks, oh the humanity.

I've played since beta and have never seen an obvious up/down arrow.

 

And the numbers are there and can be flooded by me to make sure that you get tricked into thinking mine is the lowest price.

[g_land]

These aren't one time events, obviously. None of us are asking for some kind of automated system to figure this stuff out. It would be a manual investigation process done by a CSR (like, their job). If there's a ton of items all around 10k and then a bunch priced at 1m...the intent is very clear.

 

I would rather have them focus the money that would require elsewhere rather than protecting people from themselves.

[LordArtemis]

Well, Eric, I think it's fair to say that if your post was an attempt to quell the debate, it's unfortunately failed.

 

If I'm reading your post right, Biowares stated policy is this:

 

1. Bioware has no rules, restrictions or guidelines on the pricing of items on the GTN. Therefore users will not be actioned for any price listing, purchase or sale on the GTN.
   
2. Purchases and sales on the GTN are strictly the responsibility of the two parties involved, and Bioware will not refund or negotiate settlements in pricing disputes.
   
3. It is not Biowares intent that users should have easy ways to misrepresent pricing in a way to make it more likely for users to purchase items at overinflated prices. So although ultimately such sales are the buyers responsibility, Bioware has attempted and will continue to attempt to improve the GTN functionality in ways that make such misrepresentations harder to achieve.
   

 

If this is correct, I think it is a fair policy, and fairly common in the world of online gaming. There are just too many transactions in a given day to actively police, and handling complaints on a case by case basis is too resource intensive and frankly, subjective.

 

That said, I do think Bioware needs to place some emphasis on #3 above and look at what easy changes can be made to help mitigate this. Actually having a yellow post essentially saying "no one is going to get in trouble for doing this" is likely to increase the behavior, and therefore the complaining. Implementing some of the easier suggestions in this (and 65 other) thread would go a long way towards restoring some faith in the system.

 

Good post.