Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

[hadoken]

You speak for the devs then?

 

I just read this in one of my loading screens in game

 

 

 

Is this another MMORPG bait and switch like the paladin in wow?

 

They tell you you are going to be swinging a powerful two handed weapon when you roll your character but you end up standing in the back of the raid and spamming 3 abilities.

 

The fundamental problem with your perspective is that our ranged dps just isnt that great, in fact, its rather weak, especially for a seer. Its not like we were compensated for the loss of melee damage from willpower.

 

No I don't speak for the devs, they're perfectly capable of speaking themselves and have before. It's not my problem you weren't around then to hear them.

 

Seer is the healing tree, not the dps tree. Sage dps is perfectly fine, and levelling actually greater than most other classes provided you actually know what you're doing (and honestly based on the other threads I've seen you post - you clearly don't).

[Samaul]

No I don't speak for the devs, they're perfectly capable of speaking themselves and have before. It's not my problem you weren't around then to hear them.

 

Seer is the healing tree, not the dps tree. Sage dps is perfectly fine, and levelling actually greater than most other classes provided you actually know what you're doing (and honestly based on the other threads I've seen you post - you clearly don't).

 

This post is pure trolling. You are just baiting me. The ability to read my mind and watch me play the game anonymously through the internet must be a terrible burden. Let me know when you have something to say about the topic of this thread rather than insulting the posters that you disagree with.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Samaul

[MeanMartian]

Balancing more effective melee combat for a Sage is certainly possible, and given that it's possible if most sages/sorcerers want it they should do it.

 

But I suspect people don't really understand what the trade off would be. Before they make any changes Bioware should put up a PTR with the changes you are suggesting coupled with the changes they'd have to make to Sage ranged abilities to balance and then let people decide. My guess, the PTR forum would be flooded with "OMG, SAGE IS BROKEN NOW" threads.

[Bankingclan]

Balancing more effective melee combat for a Sage is certainly possible, and given that it's possible if most sages/sorcerers want it they should do it.

 

But I suspect people don't really understand what the trade off would be. Before they make any changes Bioware should put up a PTR with the changes you are suggesting coupled with the changes they'd have to make to Sage ranged abilities to balance and then let people decide. My guess, the PTR forum would be flooded with "OMG, SAGE IS BROKEN NOW" threads.

 

If they made changes to the sage's ranged abilities to make up for an increase in melee capability I would ay the sage had been broken. That isnt what bit is, the shadow follows the path of melee and ranged. The sage is a ranged class.

[Bankingclan]

This post is pure trolling. You are just baiting me. The ability to read my mind and watch me play the game anonymously through the internet must be a terrible burden. Let me know when you have something to say about the topic of this thread rather than insulting the posters that you disagree with.

 

The poster did have something to say, that the seer is the healing tree. And that sage dps is fine without need for any melee buff.

 

By that margin it is not pure trolling. Whether or not you are a bad player is the poster's decidion to make based on what they have seen.

[Annare]

If they made changes to the sage's ranged abilities to make up for an increase in melee capability I would ay the sage had been broken. That isnt what bit is, the shadow follows the path of melee and ranged. The sage is a ranged class.

 

Stop, you are blatantly wrong.

 

The changes to a SINGLE TREE for the sage would have to be changed. Sure your baseline ranged stuff would all be far less (as a matter of fact probably largely useless), but the TK tree could be used to be the ranged caster, the balance tree could be used to be the melee tree, and the seer tree can remain the heal tree.

 

This is a complete logical fallacy to say they would have to completely nerf the whole class. The baseline stuff would become weaker, when you spec into your tree then what you choose in your tree becomes your stronger attacks as you have chosen a path.

 

seer - Heals/utility

TK - Ranged DPS/utility

Balance - Melee DPS/utility

 

it very much could work like that, they choose not to make it work like that.

[Samaul]

The poster did have something to say, that the seer is the healing tree. And that sage dps is fine without need for any melee buff.

 

By that margin it is not pure trolling. Whether or not you are a bad player is the poster's decidion to make based on what they have seen.

 

Let me make this clear. Demeaning someones playing skill or calling them a bad player when you have not seen them play is the DEFINITION OF TROLLING. It is called an ad-hominem attack in which the poster attempts to change the subject or hijack the thread by ignoring the post and impugning the poster.

 

In fact, my healing skills are in high demand. Everyone I heal for asks me to come back and heal for them again. I could level my character just by healing for others if I so desired.

[Samaul]

Balancing more effective melee combat for a Sage is certainly possible, and given that it's possible if most sages/sorcerers want it they should do it.

 

But I suspect people don't really understand what the trade off would be. Before they make any changes Bioware should put up a PTR with the changes you are suggesting coupled with the changes they'd have to make to Sage ranged abilities to balance and then let people decide. My guess, the PTR forum would be flooded with "OMG, SAGE IS BROKEN NOW" threads.

 

I like my sage but my sage is not perfect. I am not going to say that the sage is broken. The sage seems to be working as intended. I do believe that it should be intended that the sage have at least a small buff to melee damage from willpower.

[Bankingclan]

Stop, you are blatantly wrong.

 

The changes to a SINGLE TREE for the sage would have to be changed. Sure your baseline ranged stuff would all be far less (as a matter of fact probably largely useless), but the TK tree could be used to be the ranged caster, the balance tree could be used to be the melee tree, and the seer tree can remain the heal tree.

 

This is a complete logical fallacy to say they would have to completely nerf the whole class. The baseline stuff would become weaker, when you spec into your tree then what you choose in your tree becomes your stronger attacks as you have chosen a path.

 

seer - Heals/utility

TK - Ranged DPS/utility

Balance - Melee DPS/utility

 

it very much could work like that, they choose not to make it work like that.

 

THE SAGE

Seer-healing

Sage-ranged dps based on casting,, nukes and some channeling.

Balance- ranged dps based on dots and channeling.

 

THE SHADOW

Kinetic combat-tanking

Infiltration-melee dps/utility based on sabre combat and a few instant force powers

Balance- a sabre wielding spell/melee hybrid with utility.

 

I would ask you to stop. they designed the shadow to be what you listed as balance. The sage was designed to be ranged dps. Therefore nothing needs to be changed because the choices for both are there.

 

Also, from the OPs ideals, not just one tree would be changed, he is looking at it from a healers perspective, and he is talking about the baseline abilities of the consukar, therefore affecting all the trees.

[Bankingclan]

Let me make this clear. Demeaning someones playing skill or calling them a bad player when you have not seen them play is the DEFINITION OF TROLLING. It is called an ad-hominem attack in which the poster attempts to change the subject or hijack the thread by ignoring the post and impugning the poster.

 

In fact, my healing skills are in high demand. Everyone I heal for asks me to come back and heal for them again. I could level my character just by healing for others if I so desired.

 

I never said otherwise, I simply stated the post was not PURE trolling, because the poster had something to say about the topic at hand. As for the statement about you being a bad player, I would agree that it was wrong to make.

 

I was only highlighting that you chose to ignore the on-topic, constructive statements and focus on the insult.I apologise if my post did not come across as this.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Bankingclan

[Samaul]

I never said otherwise, I simply stated the post was not PURE trolling, because the poster had something to say about the topic at hand. As for the statement about you being a bad player, I would agree that it was wrong to make.

 

I was only highlighting that you chose to ignore the on-topic, constructive statements and focus on the insult.I apologise if my post did not come across as this.

 

Trolling to me is by nature pure. Saying "you suck" but "listen to my well reasoned argument" does not work. All anyone sees is "you suck".

[lordgracy]

I agree. I dont think of a sage as a mage at all. I think of them as battle mage or battle cleric.

[Zyllos]

I have been finding ways to allow the Sage to melee with the current mechanics in game. I have found out that if you replace some of your gear with +Str gear, you can actually successfully hybridize the Sage, or any class for that matter.

 

I think it is a perfectly suitable sacrifice. Just wished I could find +Str/Wis mods/gear instead of either +Str/End or +Wis/End mods/gear.

 

For those who want to melee, try this out. It actually makes my melee attacks feel useful while still being able to use force abilities and heal.

[Bankingclan]

I have been finding ways to allow the Sage to melee with the current mechanics in game. I have found out that if you replace some of your gear with +Str gear, you can actually successfully hybridize the Sage, or any class for that matter.

 

I think it is a perfectly suitable sacrifice. Just wished I could find +Str/Wis mods/gear instead of either +Str/End or +Wis/End mods/gear.

 

For those who want to melee, try this out. It actually makes my melee attacks feel useful while still being able to use force abilities and heal.

 

The problem here is that you are essentially crippling yourself. The sage is made to be a ranged class. Perhaps a shadow is more for you.

[Bankingclan]

Trolling to me is by nature pure. Saying "you suck" but "listen to my well reasoned argument" does not work. All anyone sees is "you suck".

 

Oh btw (I forgot to include this in my previous post) : the definition of trolling is antagonizing somebody for no cause whatsoever but to antagonize them.

[Zyllos]

The problem here is that you are essentially crippling yourself. The sage is made to be a ranged class. Perhaps a shadow is more for you.

 

But that is what I was asking for. The Sage to melee. And for a Sage to melee, you can not keep your current power and continue to melee as you are just that much better. So losing ranged power for melee power is acceptable while still allowing me to continue playing the way I envisioned the class to play.

 

While I am only lvl 20, I feel that I can still dps just as well (I deal a bit less overall but I can sustain DPS longer as melee abilities do not use as much Force) while throwing out spot heals/shields on other DPS classes so the main healer can focus on the tank.

 

That was the whole point of having the hybrization that I wanted in the class.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Zyllos

[Bankingclan]

But that is what I was asking for. The Sage to melee. And for a Sage to melee, you can not keep your current power and continue to melee as you are just that much better. So losing ranged power for melee power is acceptable while still allowing me to continue playing the way I envisioned the class to play.

 

While I am only lvl 20, I feel that I can still dps just as well (I deal a bit less overall but I can sustain DPS longer as melee abilities do not use as much Force) while throwing out spot heals/shields on other DPS classes so the main healer can focus on the tank.

 

That was the whole point of having the hybrization that I wanted in the class.

 

Yes but at endgame noone will see the value in a ranged class who thinks that they are a hybrid and who needs on strength gear that they shouldn't be using. Everything will seem fine now but later on it won't. That is why the balance shadow exists, to give people this archetype.

 

I'm afraid you cannot ask for the sage to be melee. Because it isnt.

 

Also, throwing out shields and heals is the healers job, doing this will become very force inneficient for you later on.

[Onager]

This thread is proof that people will complain about literally anything. I don't even have my melee skills on my hotbars.

 

 

Oh btw (I forgot to include this in my previous post) : the definition of trolling is antagonizing somebody for no cause whatsoever but to antagonize them.

 

This is correct.

 

Making a thread in which many, many people will inform you that your opinions lack merit and assume that your lack of skill or understanding with MMO mechanics is likely the root cause, isn't trolling.

 

If you say 'the sky is green' and someone corrects you that it isn't, that's not trolling. You were wrong, they told you you were wrong, the assumption that you've never seen a sky before to know what one should look like can be freely inferred by your apparent ignorance.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Onager

[Zyllos]

Yes but at endgame noone will see the value in a ranged class who thinks that they are a hybrid and who needs on strength gear that they shouldn't be using. Everything will seem fine now but later on it won't. That is why the balance shadow exists, to give people this archetype.

 

I'm afraid you cannot ask for the sage to be melee. Because it isnt.

 

Also, throwing out shields and heals is the healers job, doing this will become very force inneficient for you later on.

 

I think the reason why you say this is because of the previous game's raid scenes. Why take someone who deals less and heals less over 2 individuals who are specialized in each? The point of taking a hybrid is to have someone who can provide DPS and healing in situations to relieve the stress on your healer or DPS class.

 

If a situation is overkill with 2 healers but not enough with 1, take a hybrid to keep some DPS but still have healing?

 

Oh, and the Balance Shadow doesn't provide range/melee dps with heals. Thats what a hybrid Sage would provide. A Balance Sage with Str/Wil gear is like the old Ranger's of EQ1.

 

I like the gameplay so far, it was just like it was from beta before the removal of shared trees.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Zyllos

[Findulidas]

I dont think this is such a bad idea, considering almost all classes have a an attack that doesnt cost thier resource which scales with thier stats, ours doesnt. That said it would have to scale with willpower ONLY when you are sage, not shadow.

 

Double strike also sits there, like a dead fetus, if you are sage.

[Bankingclan]

I think the reason why you say this is because of the previous game's raid scenes. Why take someone who deals less and heals less over 2 individuals who are specialized in each? The point of taking a hybrid is to have someone who can provide DPS and healing in situations to relieve the stress on your healer or DPS class.

 

If a situation is overkill with 2 healers but not enough with 1, take a hybrid to keep some DPS but still have healing?

 

Oh, and the Balance Shadow doesn't provide range/melee dps with heals. Thats what a hybrid Sage would provide. A Balance Sage with Str/Wil gear is like the old Ranger's of EQ1.

 

I like the gameplay so far, it was just like it was from beta before the removal of shared trees.

 

Listen to yourself. You want ranged and melee dps with heals aswell. So you either want to unbalance the game, or you want to be able to do a whole bunch of things terribly.

 

Hybrids don't work in this MMO because it applies the trinity system. A hybrid would not work as: dish out some dps with healing too. It would work as: Do some subpar healing and some suboptimal dps and then run out of force because you do not have the talents to give you any efficiency in either because you were too busy taking both healing and dps talents.

[Bankingclan]

I dont think this is such a bad idea, considering almost all classes have a an attack that doesnt cost thier resource which scales with thier stats, ours doesnt. That said it would have to scale with willpower ONLY when you are sage, not shadow.

 

Double strike also sits there, like a dead fetus, if you are sage.

 

But if a new player hears about this, they will think that the sage is a melee class. Also, I don't think that we need this. The reason other classes have an 'auto attack' is because they have possibly erratic or unpradictable resources. The sage doesn't. Managing our force is a part of our job, surely?

[Akte]

Unlike the vast majority of the posters in this thread, I have actually played a Consular Sage with melee attacks that scale with level/stats.

 

About a year ago, in early Beta, Consulars main stat was actually Presence. It boosted both healing output and companion effectiveness. This lead to a situation where Consulars could easily boost their companions into god-mode, and solo group-4 missions with ease. Melee attacks (including the free one), scaled with Willpower, so all you had to do was balance your two main stats (all the gear had both Presence and Willpower on it). During combat, you just sent in your uber-companion-tank, stood behind the mob(s), and meleed them to death (don't forget that you still had your full arsenal of healing and CC powers). This gameplay was both rediculous looking, and quite boring. I was nigh-unkillable in just about every PVE combat situation I came across.

 

Later on in Beta, they switched the Consular's main stat to Willpower only. Many players moved on to the next flavor of the month class (Trooper/BH). However, Consular melee attacks still scaled with willpower, and our mezz did not cause the mobs to heal over time. This led to Sages simply "turtling" against tough opponents, using Force efficient melee attacks and mezzing them to get time to heal up. Obviously, using our ranged DOT attacks would ruin this strategy. The developers again deemed this as not playing the class according to their vision, and changed it to the system we have now, where melee is not part of the Sage's toolset in any substantial way.

 

With a little background and perspective, some of you may see how overpowered this class could be with cheap, powerful melee added to our rediculously flexible skillset.

[Samaul]

I dont think this is such a bad idea, considering almost all classes have a an attack that doesnt cost thier resource which scales with thier stats, ours doesnt. That said it would have to scale with willpower ONLY when you are sage, not shadow.

 

Double strike also sits there, like a dead fetus, if you are sage.

 

I would call Double Strike a wet noodle but I get your point.

[Volkrisse]

Im a Seer and love my class. And though I agree with some of the things the OP is trying to say, others I do not.

 

I do believe that sage should have a non-force using ranged attack to bolster force since all we have now is sacrafice (currently at work, so can't find out what the skill is exactly) which not only takes life but also destroys any regen we already have.

 

However, do I think we need willpower based melee attacks..no. lol if were at melee range, were dead. we have force sprint, 2-3 slow down cc's, 1 full cc, heals and force armor. we should be able to get away at least to the point of killing our opponent.

 

Also, i'd like to add, if we could throw some of our dots while not facing our opponent would make "keeping distance" soooo much easier. and manageable since in pvp, thats all we have for the most part.